Exhausted mum needs helps with 8month old 1-2 hr NWs

[Atomic1010]

Hi my 8 month old has never been a great sleeper. He had awful colic until he was 6 months old which meant he would scream for 3 hrs every evening from 6pm until he conked out from exhaustion. He has had silent reflux from birth for which we are on ranitidine and the dose is checked regularly.

Since he was 4 months old he has gone from waking 2-3 times a night to waking every 1-2 hrs. I tried sleep training months ago, mainly in day times, but come September came teeth, then illness, then teeth etc and no sleep training and second guessing how best to get past an awful situation.

10 days ago I started sleep training. It's a variation of shh pat. Mainly I just shh and use a key phrase as he finds patting annoying. It worked great for daytime naps and within a few days he was falling asleep within 10 mins on his own. Previously I had been breastfeeding to sleep pretty much all the time.

He generally has two naps a day now 2.5 hrs total and a has an A time of 3 hours, which all seem appropriate for his age.

Nights - I decided to feed every 3-4 hours when he wakes but do shh thing at other wake ups as he is not eating a great deal of solids. i have found that he is now self settling much quicker at the wake ups where he doesn't get fed which is good however he is still waking just as much. I have noticed that after a feed wake up he will sleep for 2 hours but after a self settle wake up he will sleep for an hour. I am trying to increase his solids intake with a view to doing 2 feeds a night rather than 3 as probably more age appropriate.

I appreciate the night training may take longer as he has been in an awful pattern for months but I just wanted some advice/support as I am exhausted and just not sure I'm doing the right thing. I've just had a bout of mastitis which nearly put me in hospital so pretty low right now and desperate for sleep.

One other thing that may be worth mentioning is that LO is still in his cot in my bedroom, as I didn't want him in his own room waking big brother in the next bedroom, and so it was easier for me to get up to feed/resettle.  The health visitor suggested I should put him in his own room as might reduce night wakings but I don't know.

Please help I'm going round in circles!

[Kellyjs]

I would actually concentrate on upping his milk intake during the day and not the solids actually. Milk is far more calorie dense and has significant more nutritional value at this age than solids. I have seen on here solids can cause the NW's as they're not getting enough milk in during the day. As lomg as you're offering milk first then solids an hour or so later this shouldn't happen.

Would you mind posting what the day or two looked like in easy format for me please? I'm wondering if something is off there and best to rule it out.

Well done in establishing your ssh/pat technique. Modifying it like that to find what works best is brilliant.

It's up to you wrt his own room. I hope once we tweak some things and work on independent sleep the NW's will get better so he'll be less likely to wake so often at night. I think it's a personal choice. I don't think he'll be waking more just from being in your room necessarily, unless you have a noisy, snoring husband like mine, but that's just my view. Maybe once we sort the NW's you might feel more comfortable moving him out then? Or we try everything all at once, totally your call xx

[Atomic1010]

Thanks for your reply.  The trouble at the moment is my milk has gone downhill since I became ill with mastitis last week. I tried a formula in a bottle with him tonight as I would rather he had more milk than more solids but he just wouldn't take it as he has always been breastfed. Not sure whether my milk will return and how to get formula into him :-( I've been feeling that my milk is dwindling for a few weeks now so not sure what to do if I am supposed to be increasing the amount I give to him?

I haven't had a normal day with him since last Tuesday because this mastitis has knocked me for six, or been recording them as too poorly, but the last day I noted down last week looked like this.

6.10 awake
7.30 bf (didn't bf on waking as had fed him at earlier NW)
9.05 - 10.05 S
10.30 solids and bf
1.30-3.30 S (I took him up at 1 but he took 30mins to settle)
3.30 bf
6.00 solids and bf
7.15 Asleep

Then awake at night 8.40, 10.15, 12.15-2.45, 4.45, 5.45

Since that day we seem to have lost the 2 hour awake period in the night which is something. Will try and start recording the days going forward now so I can show you what's happening in the day. Thanks again.

[Kellyjs]

Right I'm going to get some BF eyes for you wrt that. I do wonder if he's hungry at night.

I do think that last A might be a little long to BT. Hence the first NW so maybe adding on 15mims A to the first A then decreasing the last one by the same amount might help with that and keep your day the same length. I would actually try and keep the 3.5hrs or thereabouts second A as it looks like it suits him with that longer nap.

Yay to no long NW's though!! Much better xx

[Atomic1010]

Thanks if someone can advise on the feeding front that would be good.

On that day I took him up at 6.30 but he took a while to settle. Possibly as he is now getting used to settling himself or possibly because the last A time was too long.

I've been trying to feed him up on baby porridge before bed but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference to the NWs so not entirely sure he is waking through hunger but I could be wrong!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi I just had time to skim your post (off to work!). At his age I would say a feed or so at night is not unusual in an ebf baby really but then I also wonder, with him in the same room are some of the wakings times he may have gone back off to sleep himself but because you are right there you jump in quicker. Also I remember with DD3 we got to a point where my coming in to bed disturbed her and we disturbed each other overnight! Have a look at these links too:
I'm worried I may have low milk supply
Mastitis/Plugged Ducts

[Atomic1010]

Thanks those links were useful especially the one about milk supply. I have bought some formula to mix with his porridge etc and get him a few more calories. I am also trying to breastfeed befor solids but I'm not sure I know what else to do to reduce the wakings?

[trimbler]

Hi there, just marking my spot really as I've been following your journey for a while on the other board, but I'm sure the new eyes over here will be a big help (((hugs))) sorry about the mastitis, hope you're starting to feel better? Do keep us posted, as always, seeing your current routine can really help

[Atomic1010]

Hi trimbler thanks for your post so good to know you are still there. I haven't had many replies to my post and been feeling a bit dispondant about it, although I do appreciate with Christmas just been and gone most mummies will be busy with family stuff.

The mastitis has gone thankfully and it was awful. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I hope I don't have it again.

I will post a routine next week when OH goes back to work and DS1 is back at nursery as things are all over the place with LOs routine because of this and seeing family over Christmas. For example today he woke at 7am then slept from 10.30-11.30, then went until 4.30 for a 30 min cat nap and has only just gone to bed. The last few days he has stopped doing a regular A time of 3 hours and has been going 3.5-4 hrs as an A time and has been hard to settle for day naps, which was the source of a tearful breakdown in front of all my family and OHs family on Boxing Day.

I have taken kellyjs's advice and been feeding LO up at bedtime on porridge and formula. And we have had 3 nights where LO has woken every 3 hrs which has been great! Last night was every two hours and I was only able to resettle without feeding him to sleep on a couple of occasions as he just got very upset and I caved.

I have found that after a bf at night he will sleep for 2-3 hours whereas if he resettles himself with my help he wakes after 30mins- 1hr, which made me wonder if hunger is the issue?

I need to try harder at getting him to resettle himself when he wakes at a time when I don't plan to feed him. the last couple of nights I haven't done as well as I should do but it's hard when I'm tired and just want to crawl back into bed.

I just want to be through all of this, it's been months now since his bad sleep started

Hopefully posting an updated routine next week might help someone suggest what may be causing all these wake ups.

Thanks again for sticking with me!

[Kellyjs]

We're all here for you. Hopefully once things settle down and the routine is back in place, we'll be able to see a pattern for you. Well done on the resettling though, that's amazing progress even if it's not every night.

Look forward to hearing from you xx

[trimbler]

Yes I second what Kelly said I know it can be so hard (((hugs))) especially when staying with family and wanting to spend quality time with the  but feeling stuck with a baby who's not sleeping well - just back from that myself But things should settle down a bit once normal routine kicks in, and as Kelly said, we may be able to see some patterns - will probably let Kelly take the lead over here and chip in when I have extra thoughts, since we need her fresh eyes and experience

[Atomic1010]

Thanks Both OK well our days have got a little bit more back to normal after the Christmas period but for some reason day sleeping has gone awry.

I am having considerable trouble putting LO down for a nap. Until a couple of weeks ago LO was doing an A time of 3 hours which was very regular and was falling asleep in 10 minutes without any trouble. But recently when I have put him to bed at the same time I would have done normally he just lies in the cot crying and screaming and kicking the bars. I have been leaving him for a few minutes when this happens and if no improvement/settling I have got him up and tried again every 15-30 minutes until he falls asleep. This morning was the same but after he had been awake for almost 4 hours I just tried to help him settle in the cot as it was clear he was tired - eye rubbing, nose rubbing and yawning etc plus he had been up for a while. i had been thinking that perhaps the kick and screaming was a complaint at being taken to bed as he was UT.

I dont know why he is having trouble settling he never has had this in this way before. I can only think teething as he hasnt had a tooth through for a month so is about due one?

Anyway here is what happened yesterday
7.20 Awake
8 am solids as bf at 5.30 wake.
11bf
11.20-11.55 S - didnt settle at all well and tried numerous times to take him to bed after 10.30
12.30 solids
1.30 bf
2.35-4.35 S - settled fine this time
4.45 bf
5.30 solids
6.30 bf
7.40 Asleep for night. Settled fine.

Then he woke at 9.30pm, 11.30 1.45 - 3.30 Awake for almost 2 hours (this happened previous night too), 5.30, then awake this morning at 7 am.

I did bf back to sleep on all occasions apart from long wake up when he settled himself, which I know was not good but I had been up with both LO and DS1 a number of times on the preceding two nights so I took the easy way to settling him so I could get myself some sleep as was shattered. Will try harder tonight as I know my inconsistency is not helping!  Today so far has been a pretty much mirror image of yesterday.

[Kellyjs]

So he hasn't had A times higher than average before has he? But he's had these long NW's for a long while now if I'm right? I briefly remember your other thread with trimbler, but it might be best if we start afresh rather than rehashing all the old stuff.

Do you notice a difference to the NW's when he's had less sleep throughout the day? Maybe with all the extra craziness at Xmas he didn't take his usual long naps? We're the NW's better then? Or we're they better when he took longer naps before?

I take it he's not taking a full feed at those NW's then? You've definitely got enough feeds int her through the day, so I'm actually going to rule out hunger.

During the 2-hr long NW, what happens if I may ask? Is he playing around or is he upset for most of the NW?

I do think it's time to bump the first A, especially as you're having such trouble putting him down. I would aim for a straight jump to 3.5hrs considering all the messing about.

Fwiw the day time routine doesn't look too bad. My DD was on something similar at 8mo but with a longer day. A 1.5hr nap and a 45mims nap on a 12.5hr day. There is a sleep regression that can happen around now too, a less documented one than the 4mo one where most people have troubles but it still causes some havoc. I experienced NW's with my DD at this age for a little while, but it did coincide with a need to push the A times quite a bit actually.

I look forward to hearing from you wrt the answers to my many questions (sorry!), but if you could try the 3.5hr first A tomorrow in the meantime and let me know how that goes too? We will sort this for you ok? It may take a bit of time and tweaking, but we will get there xx

[Atomic1010]

Hi thanks for your reply.

In answer to your questions:

1) No his A times have generally been on the lower end of what is expected for his age. And yes he has had these night wakings since he was 4 months old.
2) The NWs have been the same regardless of his daytime sleep pattern and routine. I have had him consistently settling himself at nap times and at bedtimes for a month now but it hasn't made a difference to the nights.
3) When he wakes in the night and I feed him he is taking a full feed. It's not a little comfort suck to get him off to sleep albeit being fed knocks him out.
4) The 2 hr night waking is not a regular thing thankfully but when it does happen he generally rolls around his cot happily for a bit, then he cries and I try and settle him, then he is ok for a bit, then he cries again. The process carries on like this until he falls asleep. I often feed him to try and get him to sleep but this doesn't work.

Yesterday was a mirror image of the previous day's routine that I posted however he only slept for an hour in the afternoon giving a total day sleep of 1.5 hrs. Last night he went to sleep at 6.45pm, woke at 9.30pm was fed, then 11 when I helped him self settle but he then woke again half an hour later so I fed him. Then he was awake every 2 hours till 6am. At 6am he fell asleep on me when I picked him out of cot but only for 10 mins. He has just gone down for his first morning nap at 9.35am so that's roughly an A time of 3.5 hrs, which you wanted us to try.

From what you have said it sounds like the daytime routine is fine and not that he is waking out of hunger. Therefore, I can only assume that perhaps it's a prop issue at night and a bad habit? Plus my own weakness at not regularly getting him to self settle because of my tiredness, and the fact that when he wakes he is very upset.

It's strange as in the past week after I started feeding him up more at bedtime and in the day, he did 4 nights where he slept better and woke every 3 hrs but the last 3 nights have been back to square one and I haven't done anything different nor has his daytime sleep amount been different.

[Kellyjs]

Did he settle better for the nap at 3.5hrs. A?

The daytime routine would be fine for a bubba with higher than average A times. Not a problem at all, it may be that he's showing us that's what he's preferring now. Again, it's not unheard of and it's not crazy high.
So this is what I'm wondering, if the NW's have been going on for so long, perhaps he does want higher than average A times and maybe always did? Only time will tell.

Ok, let's see if he has got a prop too. I'm guessing a little one may have sneaked in there, especially as he does knock him out. I would pick maybe once to feed him and all other NW's try and resettle using your words and ssh/pat. I probably wouldn't feed so early on in the night at 9.30pm if he's taken a decent feed at BT. Maybe 11pm or after? It's always nice to have a plan before you got o bed at night so in the confusion, you have it in your head. Wdyt?

Alternatively so not to confuse him, is there anyone else like daddy around that could help with the NW's at the wknd? So all other NW's except the one where you feed, he will go in to settle? It might just be the shake up he needs?

One thing I want to also change is your feeding routine if I may? I notice you feed a little later after wu , that's fine. But what I'm noticing is that actually solids is coming before BF in your routine. It may be that he's getting a little too filled up on solids before taking a full BM feed which is higher in calories. Especially that dinner time one. He's eating dinner at 6pm, then BT feed is only an hour later. I found with my DD she stopped taking as much at the BT feed when dinner was too late. I only noticed as she was bottle fed.  I posted on here about it actually as we were trying to wean the DF and she was taking more at the DF than at BT! What I was told was to move dinner earlier to 4pm. It worked! I was able to phase out the DF using this method. It wasn't forever, but just whilst we were trying to drop the DF which effectively is what you're trying to do with the 9.30pm feed. Dys what I mean? Xx