Just starting process with 10 month old

[lyrically1]

I have an Angel baby who is wonderful all day long and now 10 months old, but has never STTN.  I think I have had 2 nights total where I got 5 hours of sleep in a row.  I also have a DH who likes to coddle our son.  We have had several arguments over whether our son is hungry at night and if he needs to continue to feed.  In my husband's defense our son is in the 98th percentile for growth, and looks more like an 18 month old.   I am a FTM, and we ended up doing a lot of accidental/inappropriate parenting to get into our situation.  I've finally been researching for help, and Tracy's book has been really helpful in understanding what we've done and giving us tools to fix the problem.

LO uses the bottle as a prop to sleep, and has been co-sleeping until about 2 weeks ago.  LO napped in the crib (or car, or wherever my DH was with him) up to this point.   I finally made the transition to a stricter schedule and putting LO down in the crib for the night.  We have continued to use the bottle to get him to sleep, as we wanted to get him used to being asleep in the crib by himself before we stopped feeding at night.  The crib is in our bedroom at this time.   

Schedule now is roughly:
W: 7-7:30
E: 8-8:30 solids
A: Very active during his playtime
E:bottle before nap
S 11-12:30   
E: Lunch, bottle usually 1 hour later during activity
A: Running errands etc with him along
S: 4:30-5:30, bottle before nap.
E: Dinner around 6-6:30
S: Bedtime 7:30-8:30 (Bottle at bedtime, and then 3oz watered down formula at all NW)
NW: Almost every night between 12:30PM and 2AM and again at 4AM.  Sometimes he wakes every 1 to 2 hours after 1 AM.

I know it's not a structured plan, but we are doing our best to make it so.   My husband primarily watches LO and I think a lot of naps are short, which is something we have been working on.  I am also transitioning feeding to right after he wakes up.  LO gets 8-9oz bottles during the day.  Amounts at NW have been reduced from 5oz to 3 oz, and I make the formula watered down to try to prepare his body to not be used to getting calories at night.

As I have some extra time off for the holidays I want to try stopping the prop use for sleep, naps and nighttime, but have some questions on when to pat/PU/PD.  I plan to stop the bottles before naps and at night cold turkey this week and am preparing for some long nights.  LO tends to fuss and make small squawks for about 3 minutes when he wakes up, but then goes to full on crying if he doesn't get a bottle during NW.   I don't want to have him CIO, but I also don't want to interfere too early if he can settle himself.    So:  when I don't give him his bottle at 1AM and he is laying in bed crying do I :
1) Put my hand on him and talk softly right away when the fussing starts? When he is crying?
2) Wait until he is sitting up? Standing up?

I know he is older, but when I started the transition to putting him in the crib for the night I did do PU/PD with shh/pat because he would stand up and wail, and it took several minutes of holding before he would even calm down.  The first time went on for over an hour.  Now he usually stands up and wimpers or cries a little, and I lay him down.  Repeat as needed.  Is it ok for me to PU/PD during the night to calm him faster, or do I just need to PD and try to relax him that way?  Having my hand on him does seem to help when he is finally settling, but I found it just seemed to make him more upset at the beginng of trying to get him to sleep.   Can you tell I am Very sleep deprived, and feeling guilty that it's taken this long for me to want to help my family?

Any thoughts, tips, straight up support would be fantastic!

Thanks! 

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Hi there and welcome to BW

First, please please don't feel guilty, everything you have done is in an attempt to do the right thing for your baby and your family. all of us here have been lost at some point, and sleep deprived too. It's exhausting!

It sounds to me like you know exactly how to reassure and settle him, if this means picking up then do it, it's fine. Yes at this age usually the advice is just to lay them back down, so jut the PD part of PUPD but if he finds it more reassuring to have a PU and if you can manage that (he sounds heavy) then do so. Mine also always needed a PU and a cuddle before he could settle, it was often very quick but not always, I gave what he needed and discovered he always asked for only what he needed and no more.  Respond to all his cries/shouting/frustration calmly and supportively, he will likely be very frustrated by the changes and will need all your support to help him through, it may appear that you being there with him makes no difference (because it doesn't stop him shouting and crying) but it does make a huge huge difference, he knows you are there and supporting him, it is totally the opposite of CIO.  So, yes, pick up if needed, use just a hand when you feel this is enough or the right time, just the way you have learned.

If your LO has a lovey he might find it comforting to have this during cuddles and sleep time to help him self settle without the bottle.  If not, this might be a good time to introduce one, I use a muslin square, it was with us every feed, every cuddle, every sleep (when very little I didn't let him sleep with it), it has incredible power to help LO fee reassured. Mine still uses his now and he is almost 5yo, he also takes a little mini one to school in his pocket to give him extra reassurance at school (looks much the same as a handkerchief). The benefit of using a muslin is that they are plentiful and washable.  Just an idea for you.

WRT the feeds. Can I just check, is there a WU milk?  Not sure if you've dropped that milk feed due to solids breakfast coming at 8am or if you forgot to put it in your EASY times.
Is he eating his solids meals well and does he get a fair amount of protein and fats?
Have you tried dinner earlier, maybe when he wakes from that second nap?  Many babies eat better earlier in the day and tend not to eat less if the solids comes later, so there might be a chance of him taking a bit more if the meal was earlier, also it might give him more time to digest and make room for a really good BT milk before he goes down for the night.

I know you are preparing for some long nights - try to plan for someone (DH?) to mind baby in the day so you can get some rest, making changes like night feed to sleep props can be hard work but usually are done in about 3 days.
Sending you lots of support.

[lyrically1]

Thank you for the wonderful reply!  It is great to have someone who understands all of this.  My friends and family just kept telling me he would eventually just fall and stay asleep on his own.  I feel guilty because I didn't trust my mommy instincts that there was something else I could be doing.

LO is an excellent feeder.  He does get a full WU bottle, and then solids about 1/2 hour later when we roll out of the bedroom.  He also took to solids like a champ and eats just about everything we make for ourselves.  He gets lots of yogurt, cottage cheese, diced fruits and veggies, bread, Cheerios, and diced up meat.  He's over 30inches long and somewhere around 22lbs now, lol.  Doc called him long and lean and suggested more calories which we have been trying to do, especially as I've been reducing the night calories. 

I will try to add a bigger meal after the second nap, but we have been struggling because I am gone from the house from about 7-7, 4 days a week.  We try very hard to sit down to supper as a family, and it is my time to have some interaction with LO after a long day.   He eats like crazy with us.  I know at this point he is way more important then my schedule, and so we will find a way.

Last night was the first night I tried putting him in the crib without his bottle.  He drank 1/2 of the night bottle right after dinner, and then I got him to drink the other half in the bedroom before we started our wind down.  He was quite frustrated in the crib and it took an hour to get him down, compared to the previous day's 15 minutes when he had the bottle.  But he did it!  I have been using a super soft blue puppy as his lovey since I started him in the crib, and he grabs and squeezes it a lot so I think it is soothing him.  He is VERY active while settling down, thrashing his legs, burrowing, clawing the bed, throwing the lovey sometimes.  I hope he learns to settle faster, lol.    I love the idea of a fabric swatch as a lovey too, and may try to find something similar to the blue puppy that we can include.  It's wonderful that you have given your son something to take with him to school for confidence!  What a great idea!

We are going to start the no-bottles through the night tonight, so hopefully by Christmas things will be better.  DH is off as well, so he will definitely be around for LO during the day.    I'm sure I will have more questions as we progress.  Thank you so much for your thoughts and support!  It means a lot!

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It sounds like you know your baby very well, please don't feel at all guilty, just because you feel there is another way doesn't mean you know what the options are, these LOs don't come with instruction books!

I understand about the evening meal. I am a big fan of family meals so LO learns the social aspect of enjoying family time and sharing a meal together.  It is not actually important that his calorie intake comes close to BT.  Not the same as with many adults who eat their calories more spread across the day, LOs can take the greater calories in the morning or lunch times and not so much in the evening and it will not effect how hungry they are (he still has his BT milk anyway). You might consider something more protein based for breakfast, omelette, eggy bread (french bread), a good quality sausage or home made meat balls or meat loaf would help to increase his meats/fats and calories.  I discovered breakfast was a great time of day to put foods I really wanted DS to eat.

Good luck tonight, deep breaths.

[lyrically1]

Just a quick update -

The first night was rough with his habit 1 AM wake taking around 1 hour 45 minutes to get him back down with a lot of screaming despite being picked up.  Then fussing every hour until 4:30AM where we had another rough 30-45 minutes.

Last night was WAY better with a small fuss at 12:30AM, and only a 30min small stretch at 3:30AM.  He woke at 6:45, and though I am trying for a 7:-7:30 wake up I let him have the bottle and curl up with my husband as we are having a line of crazy flashing booming thunderstorms going through and I didn't want him laying in his crib getting terrified by himself since I was off to work.

The only really bad thing is he cried so much the first night he lost his voice, and now only makes these pitiful squawks.  I  was NOT prepared for that to happen at all.  It breaks my heart to hear him sound like that, and it made me want to stop the process, but I didn't since then he would be hurt like that all for nothing.  I am heartened that last night was WAY better and he didn't do much crying, and so hopefully things will continue that way and his little throat will heal. 

Merry Christmas!

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Oh I'm sorry to hear he cried so much, it does sound like you have made huge steps of progress though.

Merry Christmas to you and yours too x

[lyrically1]

Update:

Night 1 = awful, lots of crying.
Nights 2,3,4 = only 2-3 NW and easily put back to sleep. Yay!

Nights 5,6 = awful, lol.  I knew there would be regression, but he went back to NW every 1-2 hours and hard to get back to sleep.   I am hoping this is something that usually passes?  The last 2 nights he has also EW at 5:30, and I get him back to sleep after5-10 minutes, and he wakes 5-10 minutes later, repeat until 7AM when I do a morning wake up routine and give him his bottle. 

I am thinking that I will try pulling him out of his crib at 5:30 for a bottle, and then seeing if he'll resettle.  His cries at 5:30 are different enough that I think it might be hunger, and honestly I really need the extra hour of sleep before I have to get up and off to work.   I don't want to reinforce EW - so is it an ok idea to feed him then?  We are trying for a 7:30 wake up.

I am trying to be consistent for at least 2 weeks, but all this getting up and standing by the crib TTN is wiping me out more then just waking and giving him a bottle, lol.  Trying to keep the long term goal in mind, but this is really harder to stick with then I expected.  Hopefully he will surprise me with a 5 hour stretch at least one of these upcoming nights!

Thanks for the support!

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I have never dropped a night feed this way so really I can't tell you from my own experience but I do believe the regression you mentioned is normal and to be expected.

I would feed at 5.30, waking every 10 mins sounds more like hunger and it seems you already have this idea anyway.

Can you rest in the day at all to help you cope with this difficult time?
hugs, I do know it is exhausting xx

[lyrically1]

Just updating:

Night 7: Only one NW at 3AM, easily back to sleep! Bottle at 6:30 AM  Super YAY! 
Night 8:  Up every hour or 2, but he had diarrhea all day, and didn't get much napping in, so ok that he needed more attention overnight too.
Night 9:  (Last night) Up at 2, 4, and 6.  Bottle at 6AM, 9oz, back to sleep until 7:30AM

I think things are improving, albeit slowly.   He is easier and easier to put down at night and for naps, and he usually settles quickly at the first NW between 12-2. He is no longer dependent on having a bottle to fall asleep which is wonderful.  I do think the EW is from hunger especially with how this morning went!  I took him out of the crib to feed, and he was very sleepy when I put him back, but he did wiggle around and settle himself.

There is no such thing as rest in my world, lol.  But since I've been functioning like this for 10 months, it's not too terrible.  Just glad that I am doing it now when I have a lot more days off, so I can slowly work on cleaning the house and laundry etc,  instead of trying to be this tired and do everything plus full time work!
I'm doing the post updates as they may hopefully help someonewho is considering PU/PD with a little older baby and wonder how it goes the first couple weeks.  I know I read a ton of threads on this board before I started this with my son.

Happy New Year!!!!

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Happy New Year to you too xxx

And Happy Update!! Whoop whoop!  Sounds like things are really going the right way   Wonderful!

Sorry to hear he had diarrhoea, certainly understandable that he had a disturbed night after that.  Hope he's OK now.

[lyrically1]

Update with questions:

Night 10 (New Year's Ever) I dont' remember, lol,  but I think it was a 2 and 4 AM NW.
Night 11 NW at 12 settled quick, NW at 2 settled by himself (yay!) and up at 6:30.
Night 12 NW at 12, up at 6 with bottle and back to sleep until 7:30. (Super yay!  I got 5 hours of straight sleep!!!!)
Night 13  NW at 12, 1, 2, 3,4,5,6....AAAcckk!

I have no idea what happened last night.  He slept the best ever the night before.  Had a nap from 11-1, which i did end up waking him from as he usually only sleeps for 1 1/2 hours, and his normal 5-6 nap and bedtime at 8:30.    At 2AM I changed his diaper in case something was pinching, but he still woke up the next hour.  I gave him more Motrin at 3AM, in case he had pain.  And I gave him some water at 4AM since all the crying probably made him thirsty.  At 5  I just put him down in the crib and he went crazy screaming and touching him made it worse, so I just climbed back in bed 3 feet away and let him CIO because I had reached the end of my rope settling him all night.  He fell asleep after about 10 min of screaming. (More annoyed sounding, then pain or distress)  He woke again at 6:15 and I had to get up for work so I picked him up and got him calmed down, and then gave him a bottle and put him in bed with my husband so  I could go get ready for work.

What the heck went wrong last night??  Is this common to sleep well, and then the exact opposite?  I was REALLY excited yesterday having gotten that much sleep, and I thought we had made such good progress.   Somehow I was thinking by 14 days he would have settled into a little more of a pattern where I could be getting 4-5 hours of sleep in a row instead of 1-3 hours.  Now I am really worried because we are going on a trip in 10 days so I can attend a conference.  I can't imagine dealing with him screaming all night long in a hotel.     Please tell me that most of the time they get a lot better once you reach 14 days of training.   

Trying to hang in there, but last night was really hard to keep putting him in his crib, when I know he would have slept if I brought him to bed....

[creations]

Oh dear, what a terrible night for you all, and I'm so sorry to hear you had to get up and go to work after all that
If it's any help to you, using your voice and being in the room with him (even 3 ft away) is not the same as CIO. When LO knows you are there, despite the crying, they do still know you are there.  They are not abandoned, it is not the same as leaving the room as this means he doesn't know when or if you will ever return or if he is in danger. When you are in the room he knows he is safe, when you use your voice to reassure and remind him you are there this is even more helpful.

Honestly I don't know why he woke every hour.  My guess is either he is poorly or teething.  Any teeth cutting?
I do also remember a lot of 10 month sleep disturbance threads over the time I've been here, often at 10 months we see LOs ready to begin the (long) transition towards 1 nap rather than 2, but I wouldn't have expected NWs every hour. That does sound more like pain.
I'll see if any of the other mods have any more ideas.

Hang in there. Try to use a reassuring voice if you can't stay right by him. and FX you get a better night, I know you need it.

[lyrically1]

Another rough night last night that apparently pushed me to my limit.  I am just at a loss as to what I am supposed to do to help my son and myself.

The previous every hour NW he did have Motrin before bed and again at 3AM, so I would be surprised if teething would do that...he did just finish getting a couple through his gums, and it didn't seem to bother him much.  He did have formed stool followed by a large amount of soft stool yesterday, so maybe he was having gas pains?  I wouldn't say constipated as the stool wasn't large or hard, just a little different from his normal routine.

Yesterday he was a little off schedule , but got a 2 hour nap from 11-1, and then it sounds like a nap from 5-6:30 or so also?  I got home late from work, and my mother in law was watching him, so I'm not sure exactly what happened.  We didn't end up getting him to bed until 8:45 because I wanted to make sure he got a good supper in him, and the he had another 7oz of formula right before bed.  He took about 30 minutes of getting up and down and being vocal before he settled and slept.  Then NW at 12, 1, 2 which he  was standing and yelling, but settled back easily when I laid him down.

Then at 4AM he stood up and was yelling/crying at me to get up and give him attention.  I let it go for a minute, then got up and laid him down.  He settled for about 2 minutes and then stood back up.   I did PU/PD with him several times, but he just kept yelling. (Not really crying- just sounding mad and frustrated with me.)  After 1 1/2 hours he started losing his little voice again, and I was crying because I was so tired, I put him in bed with my husband and gave him a bottle, and just left the room and cried for like 15 minutes.  By that time I had to get ready for work, and I am just feeling miserable.  I'm tired, my husband is tired and mad at me for making the baby cry so long, my son is not sleeping....It's been a long 2 weeks, and I wasn't expecting him to be sleeping 10 hours straight, but I would have thought we might be skipping the midnight-2AM wake up, so I could have at least 4-5 hours of sleep in a row.   4AM has been one of his habit wakes, and I really don't want to reinforce it with giving him a bottle then, but as soon as he had the 9oz this morning he was out cold for a couple hours. 

I have tomorrow off so I can get more rest, but I am starting to dread going to sleep at night as it feels like being tortured to not be allowed to sleep for almost 11 months now, and having my son cry and fuss so much.  Yes, I could sleep in another room, but I don't feel like that would help solve this problem, and I am the one committed to giving him structure.  My husband would just keep him in bed and feed him every time he fusses.  Which is what got us here in the first place.  /sigh   

Sorry, not trying to be a downer, I have just been struggling for so long and was really hoping when we got that one 12-6:30 sleep that things were going to stay in that direction.   Thanks for all the support and hugs!  It means a lot to be able to talk to someone who understands these crazy babies.   

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Stopping by with a hug.
Sorry, I've totally run out of time tonight to read your post, and my boy is running a high temp, I must go to him. But I didn't want you to feel alone.
Deep breaths through the hard parts, you'll get through x

[creations]

Oh honey, I am so sorry to hear just how tired you are. It is so difficult to be up all night like that and then ahve to pull yourself together to go to work, I really feel for you. Many hugs.
I can only say, you will get through this. You have worked so hard to retain that bond between you and your LO and have done wonderfully, you really have made great progress even though you are still having some difficult nights.  Please try to get some rest at some point so you can continue with your amazing progress xxx

Now, there is just a chance that your LO has hit a transitional point right when you have sleep trained him. I'll give you a link with some information about the transition towards dropping 1 of the naps. This transition can take months and you can have wonderfully consistent routine between now and when the drop finally happens, but it can also be bumpy. I actually don't want to give you lots to read because I know you are tired and could do with some shut eye or a nice cup of tea instead of reading, so don't hurry to this, but if you are able to look over it and if any of it seems to strike a chord with you then let me know.
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

If you are concerned he is hungry can I suggest increasing his protein and seeing if that helps.  Something like an egg for breakfast (omelette cut into fingers if he self feeds, or scrambled egg, quarters of hard boiled, or eggy bread) can greatly increase the protein intake of a day.  If you don't have time to cook in the morning it's fine to cook the night before and keep in a sealed tub in the fridge over night and just serve cold.  You could also look at his food intake and just check everything is full fat, high calorie, not whole grain for pasta bread etc (fills up too much so he might be full but needing more calories), rice is filling without much nutritional value.  Just a few things to think about.

More hugs