LO has never settled down easily!

[alhumayani]

Hello there,

First, please excuse my humble language. English is not my mother language.
My baby is almost 3.5 months now and I think he is between spirited and touchy somehow. From birth, we have had difficulties settling him to sleep. We used to put on white noise while we rock him, and sometimes walk, to get him to sleep, which didn't really prevent crying sometimes. We started to train him to sleep on his own one a week ago, using the pat-shush method, and put him on EASY. Well, according to his temperament, we accepted a lot of resistance and fighting. Now we are on day 6. It's getting better but he rarely goes to sleep without crying, or at least fussing a bit. I'm really trying to catch his first cue to get him to sleep, but still cries and fusses. I tried hard to do wind down rituals before every nap time and bedtime, which they are pretty much the same, including the F'S. I know my baby type needs at least 15 mins wind down but he really doesn't stay calm especially when I swaddle him, he immediately starts fussing. It's like he knows it's time to sleep. So we are almost never to the last F, the point when I should sit with him quietly before I lay him down in his crib, where another cycle of crying starts. The first three days of using the shush-pat method we picked him up whenever he went hysterical. From day four we could calmed him down without picking, although he sometimes goes hysterical, but I don't want to pick him up after we have reached this point. So I don't know if what I'm doing is right by trying to completely calm him down in his crib even if he cries so hard. Should I return to picking him up whenever he cries?
 Some other changes are:
- His naps have become shorter. He used to take three two-hour naps, and sleep from 8 pm to 5 am sometimes. Now he sleeps 45 mins.
- He has become a better sleeper at night! he sleeps 6 hour stretch and sometimes wakes up and goes back to sleep on his own, which has never happened before! which is also a bit confusing, because if he has learned to self settle why doesn't he settle down easily every time I get him to sleep??
- I know at his age he should not be awake for more than two hours, but when I see him fight sleeping this bad I think that he might not be tired yet and I get out of the room and let him play a little. He does actually play happily as if he really doesn't want to sleep! So I decided to stop EASY for two days and write notes to see how long he can stay awake. I'm on day 1 now.

I don't know how to get him to sleep easily. I'm going back to school soon and I really want to solve this problem before I get really busy. I know there are improvements regarding his sleep at night, but I don't know how long training him will take. I feel sometimes the shushing doesn't calm him down, all what i'm doing is not working. I tried to put him on his crib awake, drowsy, and even 95% asleep, but once he feels he is not held anymore, he starts fussing and eventually crying.

this is his routine which he really doesn't always conform to it.
E+A 8am
S 10am
E+A 12 pm
S 2pm
E+A 3:30 pm
S 5:15
E+A 6:45 pm
S 8:30

Any advice is appreciated

[alhumayani]

i forgot to mention that, these days when he wakes up and goes back to sleep at night on his own, he sometimes fusses a bit, but I don't respond, which might be the reason behind his improvement. However, if I do that when I get him to sleep, by not responding when he fusses, he cries loudly and sometimes it becomes hard to calm him down.

[trimbler]

Hi there and welcome to BW forums

Please could you post what his routine looked like when he did 2h naps? How long were his A times? Also, could you post what actually happened on a recent day, rather than the routine you were aiming for? That might give us some clues as we try and work out what's happening. It may be that he needs his A times stretching, as some LOs will have longer than average A times, and others shorter.

With the settling, if he's really upset I would pick him up if you feel that this calms him. Some LOs just get more frustrated if we keep picking them up, so it depends on your LO. The main thing is that you don't leave him all alone when he's really upset. As they get older they tend to need a little less of our help and may even start to find some of our 'help' annoying, so we may need to change what we do, eg use a hum, or words, rather than shh, or place a gentle hand in them rather than pat. It's quite common for LOs to learn how to resettle themselves at night without our help, before being able to settle themselves for BT and naps, it sounds like you're doing the right thing and that he is learning, but he won't learn it all at once, and night sleep is different to daytime sleep, which LOs tend to take longer to sort out.

Getting the A times right should help somewhat, but LOs are going through a lot of development at this age and I'm afraid this does impact on sleep, leading to difficulties. But whatever you do, stay consistent for at least a few days before making any changes, otherwise LOs can get confused. When my LOs started to scream when entering the bedroom for sleep times, I used to try to find something new to distract them, eg sing a song or show them their reflection in the mirror - just something quiet to try to break the cycle of screaming.

I hope that gives you a few things to think about, this stage can be really hard but we'll walk with you through it

[alhumayani]

He was on 3-hour EASY.
E+A - 7 am
S - 8:30 am
E+A - 10:30 am
S - 11:30 am
E+A - 1:30 pm
S - 3:00 pm
E+A - 4:30
S - 6:00 pm
E+A 6:30 pm
S - 7 or 7:30 pm

He didn't always follow the routine exactly, so I would just let him nap for two hours whenever his was tired. His A times were almost 1:30 hour. Now he can stay up for 2 hours and sometimes 2:30 and I'm not sure if he really should stay that long. Sometimes he doesn't show clear sleeping cues so I would just go by the clock which I really don't want to do! I don't want my life to be that strict. I've become really obsessed about his routine and that really has affected my life negatively. I feel like i'm waiting everything on him. I get reaaally upset when he doesn't follow his routine and I don't know if that's something normal for a baby his age and many babies do that or I'm not strict enough or what. Sometimes I feel mad at Tracy. Not her fault I know, but her books make me feel like I don't know how to parent. Because everything in her books is perfect and when my baby doesn't follow that I get upset.

Yesterday he napped like an angel, without any fussing. I patted and shushed a little when he was on my shoulder and then put him quietly on his crib. But the bedtime was horrible! I put him to sleep at 8 and he didn't sleep until 9:30, then he woke up at 10:00 and didn't sleep until 11:50. I fed him at 10:45 and he took 6 ounces! He doesn't usually take that much. I thought he might be going though a growth spurt but I haven't seen any other signs. He wasn't crying all the time but when I calmed him on my shoulder and put him on his crib he would stay quite for 2-3 minutes and talk to himself a little or suck his fingers then starts fussing. And if I tried to calm him on his crib he would cry ad cry. So I had to really pick him several times which I don't now if it was the reason why he didn't sleep since it was stimulation. Should I just let him sleep a bit on my shoulder if he does that again? for a min or so? I really don't want to repeat what happened again. Or that gonna ruin all the training? He did the same for today's naps. He didn't want me to put him down. So I had to cam him longer time on my shoulder. I really don't know what to do. I'm on day 14 and i'm not sure if it normally takes that long for a 3.5 month old baby. 

I hope he will do better at bedtime tonight

[alhumayani]

a question about the shush and pat method plz. I shush and pat him before I put him in his crib. Sometimes I do it longer or shorter depending on his mood. I tried to put him on his crib and do the shushing and patting when he cries but he never settles down so I eventually pick him up. So I decided to start shushing and patting before I put him on his crib. But i'm not sure if what im doing is considered a prop and he wont learn to self settle if i keep doing that.

[alhumayani]

Same thing happened tonight. I put him to sleep at 8:30 and he did the sake exact thing, stayed in his crib quite, talked to himself a little, cried. Then I tried to calm him dowb, he cried more and I picked him up, calmed him down, put him back, stayed quite, cried, and so on until 9:30. I fed him at 9:10,thinking he might be still hungry, although I made sure to "tank him up"  before, and he took 3 oz.
I don't know why he stays quite for a couple of minutes once i put him in his crib then cries! He has done this only at bedtime. I also didn't put him earlier than usual, so he was sleepy. Could that be under tired?  Can he be sleepy but not tired enough?

[trimbler]

It's possible he was under tired (UT), but hard to guess without seeing what happened the rest of the day. If you could post what he actually does on a particular day, rather than what you're aiming for or an 'average', we might find some clues as to what might be going on. A couple of thoughts...

You seem to have missed a feed? So now you're doing  4 daytime feeds, whereas before he had 5? Or do you always top him up before BT, but you just didn't write it down? He could well be a bit hungry in the evening, considering that he's taken a bit more milk at those times recently. There's typically a growth spurt around 3mo and another around 4mo, but he could well be having one now, all babies have their own schedule!

With shh pat, you can certainly start it on your shoulder, but the idea would be to put him down before he falls completely asleep, and continue doing it in the cot. It's usually not advised to keep picking up and putting down at this age but to use shh pat (or a variation) as much as possible to calm them - as you say, it could be over stimulating to be picked up so much. With DD, I used to practically lie there in the crib with her - I mean I couldn't actually fit in there (!) but there was a time when I had both arms alongside her and my head very close, giving her as much physical reassurance as possible but with her still in the crib. You may be able to do much less than that, but whatever you do, the idea is to gradually give less help over time, until they manage to settle themselves independently.

I can really relate to how you feel about the sleeping - with DS I really struggled and thought the same as you - that surely all babies must be able to sleep as well as they seemed to in Tracy's books, and it must all be my fault that mine didn't. But Tracy couldn't cover everything in her books, she said that every baby and every situation is different, she tried hard to give us lots of tools and an ideal to aim for, but if you spend much time around these forums, you'll soon see that EASY isn't necessarily 'easy' - that's probably why most of us ended up here in the first place On the one hand, at this age we often find that we need to use the clock more, rather than sleepy cues, which become less reliable. On the other hand, you need to find a way where you don't need to stress too much - I don't think I ever found that with DS, but with DD, I made life much easier for myself by using the sling a lot. So at this age  when first teaching sleep, I only used shh pat for one nap a day and at BT. For all other naps, I had her in the sling - actually I didn't have much choice as I had to take DS to preschool and he needed a nice long time in the park or he would have gone crazy! Will your DS sleep in  a sling or pram? I found that took away so much of the pressure, as I knew that even if the cot nap was bad, I could help her to catch up in the sling later, and try again the next day. I do feel it's worth persevering with BT, even if it does take a long time, as that can really affect the rest of the night, IME. So I'd suggest that you try to be really consistent with shh pat when you're aiming for a crib nap, but feel free to use props at other times, or he may end up really OT, which can cause problems. That way, you may get a little sanity back too It is a hard stage, I think most of is here have found that, but it will pass, you will get through it and we're here for you

[alhumayani]

Sorry for the late reply. I have the most horrible network.

Yes I always top him up before bedtime and give him two dream feeds, one at 11pm and the other at around 4 or 5 am.

Well, as a first time mother, my home is always quite. All A times involve the same activities, feeding, playing a bit on the mat, and that's pretty much is, except for the nap time and bedtime rituals ls that include reading a story and a quick message with soft music. That leads me to the question, is it okay to have the same wind down rituals for both nap time and bedtime? I don't generally have any issue with that as LO is, mostly, to sleep through, but I want to know if this something I should consider.

Yesterday when I put him to sleep at 8:30pm, it took less than five minutes for him to fall asleep, but he woke up at 11pm, which is a thing he hasn't done before, and I fed him, he woke up again at 1:45am, and I fed him again thinking that he might be hungry, and then woke up at 4am, and here I gave him a long time feed. I don't know if feeding him is the right response, but I wasn't really if the reason was other than hunger since he hasn't done those night wakings for a long time.

Tonight, he woke up at 10:15 pm. So I gave him his dream feed earlier than usual, but he didn't go back to sleep. He played for a while and then cried. I thought he might be tired, but then when I calmed him down, he seemed not to care about the shush and pat and started playing again, with knowing that I kept shush and pat for almost 10 minutes even when he was quite. 5 minutes and he started crying. This time I was afraid he would get overstimulated if I kept picking him up, so I held him for a longer time. He finally slept at 12:10 am after giving him a bottle, took 3 oz, until 8:00 am!! This time I decided not to wake up at a certain hour to give him a feed thinking that he would wake me up whenever he was hungry, since sometimes he doesn't go back to sleep when I feed him at night so his sleep might be disturbed or something. I was veeery surprised that he slept almost 8 hours without a feed!! It's not common for a baby his age, isn't it?

[trimbler]

Wow I hope you managed to get a nice long stretch of sleep in too You're right, an 8h stretch at that age is definitely something to enjoy when it happens, as it may not happen again for a long time, unless you're one of the lucky few Shame about the long NW beforehand though, I guess he was shattered Is he always bottle fed - so you can know how much he takes? If so, have you noticed an increase in the amount he takes overall over the last few days, which would probably indicate a growth spurt? About the 'dream feed' at 4/5am, does he wake for that himself, or do you wake him? A dream feed really refers to a feed around 10/11pm where you feed them whilst they're still pretty much asleep; otherwise we just call it a night feed.

Just out of interest, what did the rest of his day look like before that night with the long waking followed by the long stretch of sleep?

As for BT and nap routines - at this age they were pretty similar here, although many parents would make the BT routine a little longer, perhaps with a bath. It shouldn't matter too much at this age really.

[alhumayani]

No I sometimes bottle feed him when I'm not really sure if he got enough from the breast, so I bottle feed him to know how much he takes. These days I have noticed that he stays on the breast a little bit longer than usual. Yesterday he woke up at 10 pm. I fed him from both breasts and gave him a bottle at the same time. He took 4oz. He has never taken that much so I think it's a growth spurt specially that he slept almost 7 hour stretch again which is the thing babies going through a growth spurts do, sleeping better. But i'm not really sure if that justifies the night wakings. I'll get him to sleep on 8 pm tonight and see if he will do it again.

No he usually doesn't wake me up. I wake up and feed him before he does. So yes I give him a dream feed at 11 pm and a night feed at 4 or 5 am.

His day went as usual, wake up, feed, play on his mat, cuddle, and nothing new. I'm afraid that's all because he hasn't learned to self settle completely yet, especially that the last couple of days I wasn't consistent enough to train him which caused a regression. He now cries more if I lay him down =(

Interesting to know that it doesn't make a difference if his nap time and bedtime routine are the same! although in Tracy's books it seems to encourage different routines.  Why it doesn't matter at this age? doesn't help him to distinguish between day and night? when does it start to matter?

Thank you trimbler for being here.

[alhumayani]

I sometimes think why I just don't let him sleep on my shoulder until he is 5 or 6 months =( i'm afraid i'm putting a lot on LO while he is still young and needs to feel secure and safe. Am I wrong? will I regret it? how did your DD became an independent sleeper after he had been sleeping on the sling?

[alhumayani]

A quick question. LO as he wakes up at 8am and sleeps at night at 8pm, he only takes three naps, a morning 2h nap, an afternoon 1.5 nap, and then 45min to an hour nap at 5 or so. Are those enough to get him well rested through the night? If not, could that be the reason why he has been doing those night wakings at 10pm?

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) this age is really hard, there's so much going on with sleep regression and growth spurts. I really wouldn't expect to have fewer than 3 night feedings at this age anyway, many will have two and a few others may start to be able to drop down to just one, but 3 feedings at night would not be unusual, especially during the growth spurts. I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but if you're within that range then there probably isn't much wrong.

Those naps, if two are nice and long and one is a CN, could well be sufficient for him, it really depends on each individual LO, and it's hard to say for sure without seeing what an actual day has looked like for you - I think it could really help me to help you if you could post one? For example:

8am Up and E
10am S (woke after 45mins, took 30mins to get back to sleep, slept for another 45)
12pm E
2:30pm S (tried to get him to sleep from 2pm but lots of crying  eventually slept for 1h)
... Do you see what I mean? Just write whatever actually happened  rather than what you were aiming for

You can decide to let him sleep on your shoulder for now if that's what you're most comfortable with, just bear in mind that those sleep props will be harder to break the longer you leave sleep training - but certainly not impossible, don't worry! With my DD (2nd), she actually had to sleep in the sling a lot as it was an hour walk to take DS to preschool and back home again - and then again to collect him at lunchtime. I just made sure that she had one nap in the cot every day, using shh pat to get her off to sleep and to resettle her when she woke after 35/45mins, and I also used shh pat every BT. I don't think it was until around 5/6mo that I managed to just put her down and leave the room whilst she was still awake, but from soon after 4mo she would fall asleep independently sometimes with me still in the room. Around this time she also dropped the 4th nap and as she could stay awake longer I could put her down for her first and third naps at home and have just the second in the sling to give DS some time in the park after preschool. So I just gradually did less and less shh pat as she learned to settle herself more, until eventually I realised she was settling independently more and more. Does that make sense?

I guess our BT routine did end up a but different once she dropped her 4th nap, as I fed twice after the 3rd (long) nap - once immediately after and then a top up in the bedroom before the usual pre-sleep routine. Tbh it sounds like your DS knows it's BT rather than nap time as he sleeps a nice long time really before waking, it may well be the transition between deep sleep (the deepest sleep is at the beginning of the night) and lighter sleep (tends to get lighter as the night goes on, until deeper sleep again around an hour before WU, ideally), which wakes him - this is very common.