new to here, lots of sleep problems 7 months old. please help!

[Tiredmum35]

Hello,
I've been reading the baby whisper but need a bit of help before starting.
background:
I'm a first time mum, up until 6 months our little girl was exclusively breastfed, i have then started introducing solids, but at the moment still getting most of her nutritional needs from me still.

i think in my eagerness to try to do things right, i've actually made her not be able to self settle. i think I've always picked her up too soon. she will only nap after being rocked to sleep or breastfeed, and usually wakes after 30 mins, sometimes in the after she'll sleep 2 hours, but always on me. she used to nap in moses basket, but wont nap in cot since outgrowing basket.

night time i have always taken her up, done bed time routine and been ready to put her down at 7. again she either falls to sleep on breast or being rocked as she cries as soon as shes put down. she either cries, or is wide awake and moves around her cot. shes not crawling yet, but rolls and shuffles herself up to cot.

we do plenty of stimulating activity but i always make sure we do something calming and relaxing before sleep.

during the night she wakes every 30 minutes to 2 hours. occasionally she sleeps 2.5-3 hours but not often. twice shes slept for 4 hours, that was amazing. She's not always hungry, mostly comfort sucks and falls back to sleep, probably only two feeds during the night are full feeds. sometimes she'll wake and play shuffling round her cot and talking loudly for hours, this can be in the middle of the night.

shes in a cot in our room. shes happy in the cot if i pop her in there to nip to the loo or something.

i do everything for her one because shes breastfed and two because my boyfriend has to get up for work, i don't return to work until mid april.

I'm going to try shh pat first, if that doesn't work pu/pd but do i still shh pat if shes trying to play and shuffle round the cot? this can last hours and she gets very tired.

i will be grateful for any advice. I'm constantly shattered. thank you.

sorry for any typing errors, I'm doing this on phone whilst shes asleep in me.

[freewheelnat]

Hi, you must be very tired indeed, I'm tired just reading what your day is like! I also have a 7 months old little girl and I'm tired enough as it, even though she sleeps well (thankfully! as I am back at work), so you have my deepest sympathy.

Waking up from a nap after 30 minutes is a sign of being overtired (OT). How long do you keep her awake between naps? Could you post what your day was like yesterday or today for example?

My first thought is you're probably going to do this in several stages to remove her sleep association with being fed and your body warmth. Have you considered using a dummy?

Re pat/shhh if she's playing - personally, I only do pat/shhh if she's in distress (ie crying). If she's playing around her cot, I let her play (until she gets over tired and starts crying).

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome 

As pp has said we would love to see a routine to see what's happening. In real time if you can rather than what you're aiming for.

I do think you have a prop issue wrt waking so often at night, but I would like to rule out discomfort too. When are you feeding solids for example? Many decide to feed these at dinner time and actually it doesn't help with night time sleep at all as they don't take a decent feed before BT. Milk has to remain their primary source of nutrition as you mentioned. It is much more calorie dense than solids anyway.

As pp said I wouldn't do ssh/pat if she's not upset. This is a method to soothe your LO if she's crying. If you decide to remove the feed to sleep association, there will always be some crying involved but you are there to help her through this new way of going to sleep. We can definitely help you every step of the way, so you're not alone ok?

We need to make sure the routine and A times are suitable for her age. 30mins naps can be indicative of OT but when you describe she's messing around in there for a while, I'm assuming she's being put down UT actually then getting OT by the time she can settle. But, we'll wait to see what the last day or two looked like first. Look forward to hearing from you xx

Shush-pat - How to
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[Tiredmum35]

Thank you very much for your replies. I will reply properly tomorrow with our schedule/examples, as I've only just got my little one down (she's already woken once) i don't want the phone light to disturb her. Thanks again x

[Tiredmum35]

Activities we do
Tuesday 10:30-11 swimming
Wednesday 10:00-12 mum and baby group, playing on mat but I always leave early
Thursday 10-11 baby sensory class
Monday and Friday I meet with friends, or walk with pushchair etc.
The earliest I leave home for activities is 9:45am and always home by 12. In the afternoons we do either play mat, walker, reading, singing, out for a walk in pushchair or a combination of these things.

Feeding:
She tends to wake between 6:30-7:30. Breastfeed on waking. She doesn't have a breakfast yet as hasn't shown any interest, but has lunch around 12:30 and dinner between 5-5:30. I only started introducing food at 6 months, some meals she wont have any, others she eats about two ice cube size portions. I'm making home made purée, with either a mix of veg, fruit, chicken or fish, sometimes natural yogurt with fruit. I have always breastfeed on demand, but she has naturally spaced out to 3-3.5 hours between feeding during the day (all over the place at night).

Sleeping:
I try to get her to nap 8:30/8:45-9:30/9:45am depending what time she wakes
Then after lunch 12:30/1ish
Then 2:30/3ish
I will try and get her to sleep earlier if she yawns or eye rubs

This is how our last few days have gone sleeping wise
Monday 28th
Woke 7am. napped 8:15 for 30 mins
11:25 for 35 mins
3:50 for 1hr 10 mins

Night time
Fell asleep very quickly, slept: 19:05-19:35 woke and couldn't get back to sleep until 21:59. She then slept 21:59-22:39
22:50-23:55
00:02-1:10
4:24-6:14
6:30-7:32
7:43-8:40

Tues
Naps 10:55 for 30 mins, 2:20 for 20mins, 4:14 for 1.5 hours
Night -quite a goodnight
Slept
19:47-22:29
22:43-00:53
1:09-3:50
4:18-7:00
7:30-8:30

Weds
Naps 11:10 for 30 mins, 2:30 for 2hours
Night she slept
19:19-20:37
Ages to resettle her 23:08-23:49
00:08-4:20 (longest sleep ever!)
5:15-7:25

Yesterday naps
9:30 for 50 mins, 2:30 for 1hr 50mins
Night was awful, woke every 20 minutes to 1.5 hour, however lots of fireworks in the area and think her teeth were causing her discomfort. She had her first tooth come through December 16th second on December 19th and top ones look close to coming through.

Sorry its so long but grateful for any advice on sleep and nap schedule etc.

Thanks

[Kellyjs]

I'm just going to lay out your days in our easy format so it's easier to read..

Mon
Wu 7
A 1hr 15
S 8.15-8.45
A 2hrs 40
S 11.25-12.10
A 3hrs 40
S 3.50-5
A 2hrs 5
BT 19.05
NW 19.35-21.59, 22.39-22.50, 23.55-00.02, etc etc

Tues
Wu 8.40
A 2hrs 15
S 10.55-11.25
A 2hrs 55
S 2.20-2.40
A 1hr 34
S 4.15-5.45
A 2hrs
BT 19.45
NW 22.29 etc etc


Ok, from first though it looks like you're trying for the first nap anywhere between 1hr 15mins to 2hrs 15 on some days is that right?

What I can see is that anything under 2hrs A (yesterday for example) yields an UT nap. As there's no consistent routine set yet, I'd just like to set one now if that's ok? Obviously things get in the way like going out and about, don't worry too much about that, but if we can get some sort of consistency perhaps we can see a better pattern? Wdyt?

Wrt feeding solids, this looks great. What we recommend is BF first then solids an hour or so later. The idea is to fill them up on BM and not solids at this age as it's only for fun and exploration.

How are you settling the NW's atm? Have you tried ssh/pat yet? Does she go to sleep independently for her naps and BT?

Do you have to have an earlier nap so you can get out and do things? It can be done, many do it to work around school runs but such a short A time can result in EW, but if the nap stays an UT one, it might work? But that's just a guess. In either case we need to really push your A times as I am sure this is what is causing you so many issues. That with the teething of course which never helps things.

Let me know what you think, but ideally a 7mo needs to be on A times closer to 3hrs than 2, although this does vary from LO to LO. We will need to keep a log (like above) and see where the patterns emerge. I can already see she is capable of pulling 2hrs 50mims after a short nap already! However, what I think you need more than anything is for us to set a baseline routine to work off, give it a couple of days to settle in then we can tweak it to her individual requirements wdyt? Xx

[Tiredmum35]

Thank you so much Kelly.

Yes first nap has been fairly early, as she seems to start eye rubbing and yawning anywhere from 1-2 hrs after waking. We don't have to have early naps, however on Tuesday I do have to leave house at 10 and Thursday's 9:50.

Sorry maybe I didn't write it very clearly re activity. For example we swim on Tuesday at 10:30. So leave home at 10 and we are back home about 11:45 so more than 30 mins activity.

Yes some sort of routine would be great, I have tried but just seem to be failing and constantly being shattered isn't helping.

Sorry again my jumbled message probably wasn't clear but yes I breast feed about an hour before solids, I'm very much of the thought that food is for fun before 1, and she still very much needs my milk.

I haven't started shh pat yet, I know I need to but have been so tired and also wanted your reply first, just so with the book and your help I feel more clearer.

No she doesn't go to sleep independently for naps or night. At the moment to settle her she either has breast, my sometimes literally be a 2 mins comfort suck and she's back to sleep or by holding her in my arms and shh ing her. She's in cot in our room at night and currently naps on me (I know that's very bad, but just haven't been able to get her to nap since leaving Moses basket).

Just to add her activity is always with me. We don't have tv on or anything like that, so she's not getting distraction/stimulated by that.

Also I'm not looking at sleeping all night and not feeding at all. I'm happy to feed if she needs to during the night, but I can tell that usually only about 2 night feeds are full proper feeds and the rest are comfort.

Thank you so much. It's very much appreciated. We had 2 miscarriages before having our little girl, she is our absolute world. She's so happy and content, but I worry she's not getting enough sleep, and I'm not being the best o can be as I'm always tired.

Just got her down (took a couple of hours tonight) so getting to sleep quickly before she wakes. Thanks again x

[Kellyjs]

I'm so sorry to hear about your miscarriages. I promise you, you haven't done anything wrong at all with your DD. We just need to get you more sleep in 

That's exactly where I think it's causing an issue for you. Eye rubbing etc starts to become unreliable about now as the A time can be learned behaviour. We have to kep one eye on the clock too now.

You're honestly doing brilliantly. You have responded to your LO, that's all we ever ask for. It's just now she's at an age where you can recognise when she's comfort sucking and when she's actually taking full feeds. I'd keep a log when she takes the full feeds and when she doesn't and we can work from there and use ssh/pat for the times when she doesn't need a feed. Feeding 2 x a night at this age is perfectly fine, but as you said you need your sleep too. It will be tough for a bit. We recommend perhaps the other parent stepping in so she knows she isn't going to get milk off them, that was ssh/pat actually is a bit easier and less confusing for her. Then you attend to her the two times she needs a feed. It will only be for the short term so do you think that's something you and the dad can plan around? Perhaps a weekend? If we leave that until the following wknd, we can work on naps in the meantime wdyt? Xx

[freewheelnat]

Sorry to hear about your miscarriage, I had one myself and it was bad enough so I can only imagine what it felt like to have 2. And don't worry, as long as you love her and take care of her at best you can, you're doing your job as a mum (and clearly you are as you say she's happy and content)  

I agree with pp about eye rubbing becoming less reliable now. My DD now rubs her eyes when she wakes, 1 hour later, 2 hours later etc Her most reliable tired sign is how fussy she gets with her favourite toys - if she starts going from toy to toy without focusing much on any of them, this is a sure sign of her being tired.

[Tiredmum35]

Thank you both.

Yes Kelly that all sounds good to me. Daddy can help at weekends as he doesn't have work to get up for, so like you say, if I work out when are genuine feeds and when she's just comfort sucking we can go from there.

Do you think I should just go for it and start trying shh/pat to get her down in cot for naps, as of tomorrow? Then try nights from next weekend when my boyfriend can help for first two nights.

I would be very happy if you could help me out with a EASY schedule/routine, if you have the time. I think everything ends up a big all over the place with the naps not being at certain times.

Thanks again x

[Kellyjs]

Yes I have something in mind, I just didn't want to bombard you with all the info all at once!!

So, plan.

1. Keep a log of the night time feeds.
2. Start ssh/pat for naps
3. Use the SLOW method a little more
4. Establish a decent routine for a couple of days so we can see a pattern then we can tweak as necessary. Remember this will take time to get right.
5. Daddy to help at the weekend for NW's

Number 1 we've covered. No. 2 .. This will also take a bit of time getting it right. Some bubbas prefer a hand on the shoulder, or stroke their hair, or a pat on the bum whilst sshing. Have aread of that link I posted before. We'll use that on put down for a nap if she's upset and/or if she wakes early from a nap ok?

No. 3. I'll post a link about this one too. Tracy believed we shouldn't rush in but stop, listen, observe and wait to see what happens. This is not to say we let our child keep crying but we need to decipher what they are trying to say. This goes for during the day too. But for naps she may just be moaning or mantra crying which is different than a usual cry and those we don't need to help with, as it's her way of trying to settle. Same goes for NW's too. Once you try it and hang back just that little bit you'll notice when you're needed. At first it may be all the time given she's used you as a prop, but eventually that will get less and less. My DD used to have an almighty groan when dropping off and it took me quite a while to realise she was going off to sleep as she started crying when I got there. I just presumed I caught it early but in actual fact she was probably just hacked off with me  .

No. 5. We'll come up for a plan for this later on in the week.

Back to no. 4... I would like to try this for the next two days if we can. It will need to be tweaked, but some consistency will help you I think. Are you swimming on Tuesday or is it just during term time ie classes?

Wu 7 (wake her if not already awake, sorry )
A 3hrs
S 10-11.30
A 3hrs
S 2.30-4
A 3hrs
BT 7

This will give her the potential for a 12-hr night. We really don't know what she prefers right now, but time will tell. Some don't ever like more than 11hrs. Also, this is just a baseline routine. We'll be able to tell in a few days whether this suits her or not. Also she may short nap, just try and use ssh/pat to get her back to sleep and keep a note of the time she woke and how her mood is. Try ssh/pat for a good 20mins (again, sorry), to see if she'll go back down. If not, don't worry. Get her up and do another 3hrs A. This also will be very helpful to find out how long she naps for the next nap, so it's all useful information, don't be too disheartened ok?

So wdyt? Doable?

P.s I just want to say before  I forget that A is activity time or awake time, so time from eyes open to eyes closed irrelevant of that activity happens in the A (awake) time ok? Xx

S.L.O.W. down (and Appreciate your Baby's Language)

[Tiredmum35]

Thank you, it's really very much appreciated 

Yes back to swimming this Tuesday after the Christmas break and also back to sensory class on Thursday.

I really am very grateful of the time you have spent helping me. Thanks again

[Kellyjs]

We might have to come up with a new plan to work around your outings in the mornings. In either case, could you try the routine I suggested and let me know how you get on? Xx

[Tiredmum35]

Hi Kelly,
We didn't try it today as had such an awful night. Will definitely try it tomorrow though. Thanks again xx

[Tiredmum35]

If I can't get her to sleep for the first nap, do I keep the second one for the same time? Thanks x