NWs and EWs no matter what - help!

[murphy76]

Hi ( and happy new year!)

We are starting to lose it, our DS3 is 13.5mths old and driving us to distraction...

He has been fed to sleep and when he woke at night most of his life, through a variety of illnesses and teething it seemed the only way for any respite. We were using the holidays to get him back on track, we have been gradually reducing the night feeds to now he just gets water when he wakes and 5/7 goes over, and we no longer feed him to sleep for his nap or at night.

HOWEVER..... He still wakes multiple times a night, and is is up for the day at 530 without fail, today he wouldn't go back over at 430 so that was him up.

He's transitioning 2-1 nap, but no combination makes it easier at night. 415-430hrs after waking in the morning he goes down, for 1.5, 2, 2.5 hrs sleep, we wake him each time to see if one works better. Then he gets a CN 4hrs after waking as with EW he will be OT by BT if not. A typical day is:

WU 530
S 10-1130/12
CN 4-430
BT 7pm

This can vary slightly but is usually accurate within 30 mins, sometimes he is in bed at 630 if he has woken from the CN at 330/4pm etc

I just don't know what to do, it seems the more sleep he gets during the day, the more frequent the NWs, sometimes every 2 hrs!

And he will never be able to move to 1 nap if the EWs persist..

We are at a real loss and don't know what to try next. Back to work on Monday and no further on, is so dispiriting, especially as the whole house is so tired after the last week and months.

Any thoughts are advice welcome, what is the ideal day and we can just aim
For that and stick to it, come hell or high water?

Thanks in advance.

[Haribo2012]

Hi and happy new year to you too.

How is he at the NW, upset or awake and happy? Also any teeth on the move?

Does he go to sleep on his own now, ie no rocking or cuddling?

I think you may need to push that first nap a bit later and try and get rid of the CN and use early BT. His total sleep in 24 hours isn't bad really, your getting 10.5 at night on average and 1.5/2 hours in the day. For us frequent NW could also be teeth and developmental at this age.
This was pretty much the same for us at this age until we pushed nap later and got rid of CN, it did take a good few weeks of consistency, he used to nap around 11.30 for 2 hours then I just shifted it 15 mins later every few weeks until we were getting a more consistent nap in the middle of the day.

It's a tricky age as day starts to rob from night but they can't quite manage 1 nap.

[murphy76]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

He wakes crying during the NWs, will that mean anything?

He goes to sleep on his own, no rocking or cuddling.

We'll aim to extend the first A time then, and eventually drop the catnap. It's gonna mean a really early bedtime tho! Are we talking 12 hr days, 530-530 possibly? The do you try and push it a bit every few days to eventually get 7-7?

One problem we are going to have is he's a terrible napper in daycare, always has been, so that's going to be futile trying to get one nap. He's in 3 days a week, is it ok to have two naps mid week Nd aim for our one nap the other 4 days, in the hope that it just eventually evens out?

It's the same whether teething or not, he has about 12 now so there has been plenty of teething, but it's not the only cause.

Thanks for any thoughts!

[Haribo2012]

If he's waking crying id think discomfort, is he easily settled?

I've done plenty of 5.30 BT with nap dropping, sometimes they surprise u and pull a great night, if he's OT that could be causing NW but it could be an OT/UT loop. I'd go for a 12.5 hour day if you get a long nap of 2 hours anything less stick to 12 hour days, then when nap gets a bit later make days 13 hours as most on 2 nap tend to do 11 hour nights on a 2 hour nap. Of course all vary and if he is high sleep needs he may need longer nights.

I had to force daycare to not let my DS nap until at least 11.30 once we got into swing of 1 nap as it was causing a mess but I think sometimes on those days we just had to go with the flow a bit.

[murphy76]

Zoe,

Thanks for that.

Last night wasn't great, yesterday he slept for 1hr 40 mins in the morning and had a CN of 25 mins, was in bed at 630pm but woke at 12 for 10 mins, 130 for 10 mins and 3am for 1hr 15 mins, and that's him up now at 545am for the day. He was crying when he woke each time, and was easily settled the first two times.

I certainly think he's OT at points, and it could also be that OT/UT loop you mention too.

I'm going to try and get him to 10am, I know it's only 4hr 15 mins A time but he'll be busted after the NWs, and then if we can get 2hrs nap, that would mean 5hr 30 A time to a 530 BT, or 545 A time to get a 12 HR day.

I guess this longer A time is alright as needs must to get the 1 nap/12 HR day routine going, and we just persevere with this until the WU time gets later?

To introduce at CN here would mean long days, and mess things up?

Should we cap this 1 nap at 2hrs or let him sleep as long as he will? Is there an ideal amount of daytime sleep at this age?

Thanks again.

[Haribo2012]

Sounds like it could be developmental too, is he walking or on the verge of it? Milestones okay havoc with sleep.

Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

If the nap is shorter than 2 hours you can still do a CN just keep it short say 10/20 mins and move BT 30 mins later.
EW can be a sign of needing nap pushing, I'd definitely leave the nap uncapped and don't wake him. We only started waking from naps when it affected the final nap dropping at nearly 3 yrs old x

[murphy76]

Hi, thanks again.

He only slept 1hr 30 mins earlier, woke himself, so after 4 hrs I've given him 30 mins in the car, which should see him through to about 645, if we have a 3hr  A time before bed after 30 min nap.

For future reference, going by your last reply, I should just make it 10/20 mins and an earlier BT then? I'll know again if this is the case.

He's been walking for Anout 3-4 weeks now, I could see the developmental stuff impacting if he wasn't waking before this all kicked off too!

[Haribo2012]

Fingers crossed you get a decent night and wake up.

I'd say if you get a nap 10-11.30 do a CN 20 mins about 3pm ish then go for 12.5 hour day if nap is a good 2 hour plus ditch CN and go for BT 12.5 from WU.

If you get a good night with no NW then push your nap a little the next day. Have you tried any meds on NW to see if teeth are hurting?

[murphy76]

Fingers crossed indeed!

We've been giving a longer catnap and certainly 4-4.5hrs A before that, so I'll adjust it to roughly what you suggest, thanks.

He gets plenty of meds, but we'll keep an eye on the teeth indeed.

Thanks again, here's hoping.

[Haribo2012]

keep us posted Hun x

[murphy76]

Hi Zoe,

Last night started promising but unfortunately didn't end well.

BT 645
NW 140-245
NW 330-345
WU 445am

And that's him for the day. He was crying during the first NW, and was about to get hysterical at 445 there so I had to take him downstairs. I could see it being illness if he wasn't playing happily and smiling now down here....

This easily start makes it so difficult to plan the day. He's had barely 8hrs sleep last night. I know he would do two big naps today but then I guess that would just make tonight tough again for definite and would be self defeating as it will rob from NT sleep?

If that's the case I guess the idea is to let him nap at 9am, if we can get him there as he'll be tired, and for as long as possible. If it's less than 2hrs I can give him a catnap 3.5 hrs after for 20 mins, if we want a 530 bedtime this would mean an A time of 3hrs 10 mins before bed.

If he sleeps for 2 or 2.5 hrs in his first nap, could I still give him a CN of even 15 mins otherwise the A time before bed would be 5-6 hours which is surely too much?

As tired as we are, both me and DH have been basically up from 130 again and expecting DS1 and 2 to waken any moment, if we are at least on the right track to a routine that will have him STTN it's easier to deal with as there is the knowledge things should get better with perseverance. It's just whatever we have tried, certainly lately, has had no positive change.

However the goal is now what you mentioned yesterday, that's a clear plan of what to do to get him to one big nap, and what to do if the nap is shorter and we need to introduce a CN.

It's all just about getting him to a reasonable WU time to allow us to implement it! Lol.

It's comforting to get these tips and advice, I'm sure we'll get there.

Thanks again.

[Haribo2012]

It must've been the night for it my 3.5 yr old was up 3 times (worms on him!?)

Could u perhaps give him a CN this morning then try a bigger nap nearer lunchtime?

[murphy76]

Sorry to hear that Zoe, it's tough when there are worms in the house. For us it was not knowing that it was, but once we determined it was the worms as it was early part of the evening and I actually saw them, at least it was a help.

For what it's worth I spoke to a pharmacist, and Anusol is the best thing we found for stopping the itch until the medication had kicked in.

We got him to 855am, but he was out of his head with tiredness at that and now we are locked in to giving him his big sleep now as we have visitors. But I am not expecting it to be long as I've a suspicion he is OT....

So I'll just have to see how it goes, if he hasn't woken after 2hrs we'll waken him, that way he can get a CN at 2/215pm then BT at 545pm...

Obviously it's all trial and error but at least we have a rough plan for today.

[murphy76]

Right, curveball, he slept for 55 mins which sounds like no man's land to me!

If I give him an hour this afternoon after 3.5hrs A time, is that about the best way forward as its still 2hrs ish daytime sleep and should get him through to 530 BT?

Thanks!

[Haribo2012]

Thanks for worms advice but I meant garden worms on his arms he was saying (imagination) 

Sounds like OT nap to me or discomfort. Had he got his molars? Played havoc here before even saw them.

If prob let him have an uncapped nap and do a later BT just to see if he's really OT.