I have to sleep train for all of our sakes....hand hold and advice?

[4isstillnighttime]

Hi

I've posted a million times about my 7 month old. His sleep has never really got back to normal after Christmas and we are in a mess with loads of bad habits and props. The thing is, I am now so tired it is affecting how I am with the other 2 and so I will just have to sleep train, much as I hate it, so I can g o back to being a normal person rather than a weeping, raging monster. And my parents are here for one week so now is the time! But my other 2 were much older when I STed so I'm not sure how to do it with such a small baby  and I would really like some advice.

He is 7 months exactly. Sleeps in my room (often in my bed). Breastfed. Has a dummy which he cannot replug, and he isn't mad keen on it - will only take it when he is really sleepy, and it's not the magic cure it was with the twins. He is eating 3 meals a day but we are doing babyled weaning so not eating massive volumes. During the day he feeds about every 3.5 hours but that is all thrown out by his terrible nights too as I am never sure when to offer the first feed as he has had a million little snacks overnight.

Yesterday's EASY:

A for the day at 6ish but really restless since 4:30
Breakfast (porridge) 7
BF 8 (didn't take much, maybe full from breakfast)
S 9-10:15 (couldn't resettle)
BF 10:30 (good feed)
Fell asleep for 10 mins in the car at 11:30
Lunch 12:00 (sandwiches)
BF 1:30 (OK feed)
S 2:00 - 4:00
BF 5:00
Supper 6:00 (cauliflower cheese)
BF 7:00
BT 7:30

NW so far (!) 9, 10 (dummy and resettle), 11:30 (BF), 2:30 (tried to resettle and couldn't, tried to feed and wouldn't, shh patted for an hour of screaming, tried again to feed at 3:30 and had about 3 sucks and went to sleep). I'm sure he will be awake in an hour or so.

I know our EASY isn't great either. But I will just have to do if all at once. As a family we are absolutely on our knees. I hate baby crying but I am getting loads of screaming anyway, so I would like to feel like it is getting somewhere. Honestly, it's the first time with all 3 of them I've been tempted to do any kind of crying method (I won't, don't worry!) purely because of the effect on my precious twins - I have no energy and no patience, the baby is miserable and tired.

So please give me a step by step approach. PUPD has never worked in the past as it isn't that he wants to be held, so I have always soothes in the cot, and I'd rather do that. I think I want a gradual withdrawal method but am prepared to do it quite quickly even if crying is involved. And I don't need him sleeping through, am happy to keep NF, but after the first one he isn't really hungry for them, doesn't even suck properly, so I'm sure it's a prop. He has some separation anxiety but he doesn't settle with me there so I don't think it's that.

Finally....because of the twins, some things are fixed. I do nursery runs at 8:30'and 5 3 days a week. And mealtimes can't move much as the twins are creatures of habit.

Pleas help. We are falling apart here.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) sorry I don't have much time now, but one quick question - how is he getting to sleep now? If you want to do gradual withdrawal we'll need to know where you are now to decide on the first tiny step towards where you want to be. Also - a little more info on the fixed things in the day - eg how long are the nursery runs, do you leave at 8:30 and back by 9? Do you have to get dinner for the twins after nursery collection or have they eaten there? Or could they eat pre-prepared sandwiches whilst watching a DVD whilst you do an earlier BT with your DS? I sometimes had to do this with my DS but he was a bit older and not a twin... What's their lunch window?

[michaeljacknnugg]

Holding your hand...

[4isstillnighttime]

Thank you thank you thank you - even if he never sleeps any better I appreciate the hand holding so much. Am in the depths of despair!!

At bedtime he has a bath, massage, BF in the twins room while we read their stories. Then into my room, BF again (doesn't concentrate when twins are around), into sleeping bag, into cot. Dummy in, kiss on the head and I leave the room. He will play with his dummy until he is bored, then cry - I go back in, pop dummy in and he goes to sleep. If he gets upset I hold his hands on his chest, shh in his ear, pat his chest. At nap time it's the same but no feed. Overnight I try all of these but if it doesn't work I feed him. I can usually hold it together for the first feed but at subsequent feeds I tend to fall asleep and wake up with him still with the nipple in his mouth but not exactly latched on. Then I get confused how much he has fed and end up feeding again at the next wake and the same thing happens. After about 4, 5 if I'm lucky, he gets really restless and agitated and will only sleep in short bursts - 20 mins at a time. 6 (of I'm lucky!) the twins come in and the day begins. If he is actually asleep when they wake up I will try and intercept them but he is usually only dozing.

Nursery is about a 10 minute drive away. We need to leave by 8:30 at the latest. When we get there I have to get baby out of the car and take all of them in, takes about 5 mins to settle the twins. The. 10 mins back. In the evening I need to leave between 5 and 5:30.

I was thinking that I could actually be more flexible with his mealtimes as the twins don't really nap so would come and eat a snack while he had a meal if he slept through theirs. Usually though we have breakfast at 7, lunch 11:30 - 12, supper 4:30 - 5/30. They have cereal or fruit or something when they get back, but I can't really leave them unsupervised to eat as they are in an awful phase of fighting - it would be about 30 seconds before one or both came charging up the road to tell me what was happening! I could possibly bribe them to stay quietly in their room upstairs so I could keep an ear out for them.

Do you think it is a ST issue? I feel like he is really nearly independent, and can't see why his sleep is so bad!!!

Thank you again!!!

[michaeljacknnugg]

I thought that. You are so much further ahead of us in terms of settling!

I wonder if you can somehow log what's happening at each wake (app?) so that you feed less often? We had loads of feeds last night (jabs yesterday, I went with it) but normally I can just about remember when he's fed and respond with something other than a feed if it's not been long.  But I have him in bed with me from the start of the night and am probably a lot more rested as a result.

He's so so close!

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) you must be so tired! I agree he does seem pretty close to being able to resettle himself, one thing I wondered was whether you can leave several dummies around the cot in the hope that he'll be able to find one and replug himself, that way it can become a comfort object that he can control himself, rather than a prop which you need to actively replace for him?

It sounds like it's really the NWs rather than daytime/BT settling that you want to sleep train for, right? I agree you'll probably have to decide on a strategy for reducing the number of times you feed at night. You said you feel that he's hungry for the first feed but not for subsequent feeds? You could decide on a time for a dream feed and then decide not to feed less than 3/4h after that, for example. Then make a note of when he fed and don't feed before that time the following night - so if he ended up going 4h the first night then don't feed earlier that that even if he wakes earlier - you may end up resettling before that and find he'll then sleep until 5h from BT - in that case feed, and the next night you wouldn't feed before 5h after BT. Does that make sense?

Or, for a totally different approach, you could try the gentle removal plan: Gentle Removal Plan
What do you think you'd prefer?

We still need to look at your routine I think, but I just didn't get what time you're home after the nursery run in the morning? 9? And in the afternoon, you're out 5-5:30? Might just help to know exactly what your limitations are, I don't want to suggest something impossible! How is he like during the day? Does he seem really tired in the morning after the unsettled night? Seems to be, with that nap in the car... Does he seem really refreshed after a 2h afternoon nap? It may be that he's in an OT cycle and needs an early BT to help him to catch up - how early can you realistically get him down for BT, do you think? Was that day that you posted typical, or is it different when he doesn't fall asleep in the car?

[4isstillnighttime]

  I just reread my post - even I'm not sure what is happening about nursery drop offs!! Basically, I'm iut the house from 8:30 - 9, and from about 5 - 5:45 (have to go in and meet with teachers). I can't just leave him to sleep in the car while I go in as I have to park on the road and it isn't safe.

He is definitely exhausted after his rotten nights. We had another shocking night last night and he was up at 5 (did an enormous poo!!). Went back to sleep in bed with me at about 6 and slept til 8. So as a result he has had a kind of 1 nap day, in bed by 6:30 but lots of wakes already so I think he is pretty OT. I have my mum here for a few days so tomorrow and Monday night I could get him to bed really early to catch up....but realistically 6:30 is as early as I can do. Maybe 6:15.

I'm keen for him to keep his dummy as I go back to work soon and I love knowing that he has a comforter when I'm not there. He can sleep without it (doesn't have it in the car or the sling) and it often falls out and doesn't wake him. He can't replug yet....but we could work on it! And I'll pop more into the cot, that's a great idea.

I think I cut down the twins feeds by going gradually longer between them, but they were much older.
Would it be ok to say something like a DF at 10ish, then no more feeds til 1, then at least 3 hours between? That's what I have been trying to do but wasn't sure if that was ok at this age. He is often really OT at bedtime so a DF would reassure me that he wasn't hungry if he woke before then....

Thank you again for all the help!!  MJN did your little one have the meningitis injection? Baby had a huge swollen red lump after it and a storming temperature - it's a tough one!!

[trimbler]

Oh dear poor thing - and poor you! I wonder whether that enormous poo made him uncomfortable that night? Have you noticed any changes in his bowel habits or indeed in his sleep since starting solids? I know you said that he doesn't have large quantities but even small amounts of new foods can affect LOs. Have you introduced foods one at a time to see what effect they have, or just let him try whatever he wants? Could you keep a log of what he eats and how he sleeps and when he poos - perhaps you may see patterns?

I really would try for a few good early nights if you can, to help him catch up. Even if you can't do it consistently. We went through a patch where DD couldn't go to bed earlier than 6:30pm on days when I was working, but I'd get her down for 6pm on days when I wasn't, which really helped her to catch up when her nights were bad.

How long since he dropped his third nap? I guess that one would be hard to get now unless it was in the car for nursery collection on one leg of the journey, right? And of course you'd have no influence over whether he dropped off or not... I just can't help wondering whether those A times are more than he can handle. Even if he takes a nice long pm nap after a long A time, like that day you posted, he may just have crashed for 2h but still been tired afterwards and needed EBT? Has he always had A times on the longer side for his age?

Yes your plan for night feeds sounds good - so fix the 10pm (ish) DF and then no feeds until 1am, settle by other means until then. But I guess what I meant is that if he then sleeps until, say, 2am, then you know he's ok going until that time and so you could decide not to feed until 2am the following night. I just suggested this as you seemed to suggest that he's not really hungry after the df? The more you resettle him at night without feeding, the more he'll hopefully learn how to do it and be less expectant of a feed to get him back off to sleep again, but you'll still feed him when he's genuinely hungry. I haven't weaned feeds like this myself but know several others who have done so successfully. I think because it's become such a prop for him at night, it would help to gently reduce the night feeding, ideally to just two feeds, including the dream feed - does that sound realistic to you or do you feel he genuinely needs more feeding at night?

[michaeljacknnugg]

Yes, meningitis vaccine - I was dreading it but he seemed ok.

So if it helps, my 2 month old is happily going (not every night) from 10-3 without a feed with no intervention from me at this point. I'd say you could stretch the time without a feed fairly rapidly so that you don't get 'stuck'. What do you think?

[4isstillnighttime]

He has never been a great pooer, and solids has definitely made that worse. I have cut him back to a much plainer diet (was just giving him the same as the twins before) so will see if that helped. His dreadful sleep has definitely coincided with starting solids!

He sometimes has a 3rd nap in the car, but even if he does it is 10 minutes at the most as he wakes up when I take the car seat out. He has always managed long A times, but he is generally so happy I prob miss lots of sleep cues

I fell asleep typing that after doing a DF at 10, and have just caved and am feeding him after 20 minutes of full-on screaming.
I could feel myself getting angry with him for not going back to sleep, and I can't stand that. He was hysterical, retching and gagging even though he was in bed with me, dummy in, shhing and patting. Kept looking like he had dropped off and then screaming again. So now I have just fed him anyway, I'm furious with him, him with me, DH and I have just argued about it, he has learned that if he goes ballistic I will feed him anyway, I may as well have done it half an hour ago and saved us all the agony......and he's not feeding properly anyway so it definitely wasn't hunger!!

And he and I are in a pool of angry tears and DH is on the sofa.  This is what I'm not doing well at.

[michaeljacknnugg]

Oh honey I feel your pain! We had a similar conversation last night. It is just so hard!!

Back later xxx

[michaeljacknnugg]

Ok, so we need something gentler I think. It's no good to any of you to end up like this.

Can your mum or your DH help at all? Would you consider feeding him but for less time?

Just throwing it out there but is he getting enough liquid during the day?

[4isstillnighttime]

Thank you so much for being there. You're right, we aren't doing anyone any good trying to space the feeds I don't think - he doesn't take a very good DF so maybe he was genuinely hungry at 11:30, but because I made him scream for half an hour first he was too wretched to feed properly....anyway I ended up feeding again at 1, at 4, and he was pretty much up for the day at 5. I tried rocking him back to sleep and he would drop off in my arms for 5 mins then wake up screaming again, even if I didn't try to put him down. I wonder if he is getting unwell or something, makes me feel even more guilty!!

It's difficult with DH - firstly because his leave has been cancelled  so he is back at work. Also he doesn't really believe in sleep training - he comes from a culture where babies cosleep, feed on demand and are worn until 2 at the youngest. So he thinks it is unnecessary and although he understands my need to do it, I can't ask him to help with that really. It would be like him asking me to let them CIO. Also he drives an hour and a half to work and works 11 hour shifts so he needs the sleep really. And mum lives in Australia!

I think that maybe feeding on demand overnight but for less time is maybe the way to go. How do I start? Do it for every feed? And I'm sure he doesn't drink enough in the day - can't really drink from sippy cup. But I tried an open cup today and he seemed to do quite well.....

Yesterday's EASY (if it helps!!)
A 5:45
S 9:00 - 10:45
S 2-3:30 (sling)
BT 6:30.....but by the time he went to sleep at least 7 or 7:15.

NW 9:00, DF 10, 11:30 (screamed for half an hour, finally fed), 1 (fed), 4(fed and into my bed), awake and chatting for a while, poo and change 5 ish, really tired, dripping off for 5
Mins at a time in cot or in my arms

Any thoughts? He is shattered so maybe I should take his A times down a bit? Will try to get a 3rd nap today too as I do think that helps.

[4isstillnighttime]

Ok, no 3rd nap, mum and dad are here from Australia (last day today  ) and all too exciting. Had 2 reasonable naps in the day - 9-10:15 and 1-3, put down at 6:30 but lots of early evening waking. Up for the day at 5 and has just fallen asleep feeding.....and as my parents are here I'm going to let him have an early nap and maybe just follow his sleepy cues today to get him a bit better rested. Last night I didn't even look at my watch, fed when he woke for it (3 times maybe but I fell asleep instantly I had him latched on so don't really know) and so although my night was very disturbed, I got quite a bit of sleep overall. I think, as a family, we just need to reset a bit and then try again.

So....I will give him today to do what he likes. But from tonight I will try again with trying to reduce his night feeds. Do i just time them and reduce how long her feeds for? And if I try something like no feeds before 11, then try for at least 2 hours in between?

This may not be relevant (and is maybe a bit gross!!) but he and the twins have all had a bit of an upset tummy for a couple of days. He is pooing much more than usual (maybe 4 times a day?) and it smells and looks exactly like a purely BF baby poo. He is definitely eating solids but does this mean he is getting too much milk??

[zissi]

your initial post sounds like what we went through. my LO woke every 45-90 mins to feed, her way of getting back to sleep. so we sleep trained, meaning shush pat and PUPD, she also had a soother prior to this and we got rid of it the night we sleep trained. have a look at my post here:
Re: Night wakings every 1-2 hrs
I guess it all comes down to the way your LO goes to sleep. this needs to be completely independent (no soother) and then he will be more able to put himself to sleep when he wakes up. since we sleep trained my LO wakes twice per night for a feed plus the DF, doable for me. Like you I was a wreck from all the night wakings.
do you think you could sleep train to start with at BT? It may take 2 hours or so initially but after this it will be much easier. then you decide a time when you are willing to give him a feed again, we did 3 hours... what do you think? Its so tough but sometimes necessary. I don't know why some BF babies happily sleep and feed maybe only once or twice per night and both of my girls took advantage from the milk bar and thought they could help themselves alllll night