5+ month old - when will he go BACK to sleeping through the night? can i help?

[tinydancer]

Hi there.
I am after a bit of advice for my 5+ month old (23 weeks). He HAD been generally a good sleeper in the night, sleeping from around 7/8pm through until 7am the next morning, with a df at 10.45am. After what seemed to be teething, sleep regression, and/or growth spurt some accidental parenting slipped in (whoops) and now things have all gone a little bit pear shaped.

Over the past 4 days I have started on 4/4 and also PU/PD to help with settling for naps, extending naps, and also sttn. I have seen improvement already which has been really rewarding, with the exception of night wakings!! My LO is waking for his df, and waking twice more after this. He seems to have a relatively good feed (10mins bf)  and then will go back to sleep. How do I know when he is waking out of habit/seeking comfort and when he genuinely needs food? To make things trickier, he has caught a cold yesterday and this seems to be bothering him a wee bit too.

Can anyone help with a bit of advice on how I get him back to sttn? Do I just do PU/PD right through until 7am? I am worried that he genuinely needs the food as he has become very active over the past month - rolling here, there and everywhere.

Over the past 4 days I have used PU/PD to settle him for naps, as he was sometimes being fed to sleep. He has taken to drifting off to sleep while stroking my arm (very sweet), which I am trying to reduce very slightly each day. Do you think that this could be contributing to his night-wakings?

Thank you! Let me know if there is any other info I can provide to help. I could go on (and on and on)

[lauradj]

Hi there!  That sounds like a lot of stuff your little man was dealing with all at once!  If he's eating well when he's waking, and it sounds like he is, I'd just go ahead and keep feeding him when he wakes.  I'm willing to bet once he's through this little hump he'll settle back to his old routine.  Have you considered introducing some rice cereal?  Do you think he's ready for solids?

[tinydancer]

I know, right! He seems to be on the other side of it all now (apart from his wee cold), which is great and also the reason I started the PU/PD again to help him back on the right track.
And yes, he's also been eating a few teaspoon-full of solids this week (and loving it), but this hasn't made any difference to sleep that I can see.
I was wondering if he'd gotten used to eating at night and liked the comfort factor of it, but do you think he might just be going through a bit a hungry time? I know I do that

[lauradj]

How long was that whole storm of awesomeness going on for?  If it was over a week or two, he may now be seeking you out as a source of comfort.  However, I would wait until he's 100% healthy to determine if that is the case.  Once the faucet nose has ended etc.

[tinydancer]

It started about a month ago, with the teething symptoms but no teeth to show for it (drooling, biting, grizzly, etc.) and then followed itself up nicely with a growth spurt (feeding every 1-2 hours at night). And then I started wondering if it was the 4mth regression as he started rolling over both ways around that time too.

I'll keep feeding him for now while he gets over this cold (thanks for that advice), and hopefully it doesn't last too long. Are there any clues or strategies that you would recommend for when we get to the other side? My willpower is very low in the wee hours of the morning!

[becj86]

If your A time is still 2hr, you may find increasing it to 2:15 or even 2:30 will help with the wee hours, especially the first A time which will be the hardest to extend but the best result.

Generally babies go back to what they were doing before provided their routine is reasonable. Many parents hop on here and say their child is better but sleep is still awful - wait another couple of days - just because his nose has cleared doesn't mean his body isn't still feeling a bit off and for a baby who doesn't know that he will get better, he cannot rationalise the tail end of an illness away as we can as adults. He also has no reason to push himself when he's not 100% as we do.

[tinydancer]

Thanks Becj - I will try extending the A time (he's on 2hr usually), to 2:15 and will see how we go.

This is what our day currently looks like now that we have moved to 4/4 and working on extending his naps from 45m to 1.5-2hrs...

E - 07.15 - 07.25
A - 07.25 - 09.15
S - 09.15 - 10.35
A - 10.35 - 12.20
E - 11.00 - 11.05
S - 12.20 - 2.10
A - 2.10 - 4.45
E - 3.05 - 3.15
S - 4.45 - 5.45
E - 5.45 - 5.55
A - 5.55 - 7.00
E - 7.00 - 7.10
BT - 7.10
Asleep - 8.00
DF - 10.15
Awake @ 12.45am (nursed 10m)
Awake @ 3.35am (nursed 8m)
Awake @ 6.00am (pu/pd until 6.48, got up at 7.00)

Good to remember about him being sick, I have the same cold so am currently feeling very sympathetic!

[becj86]

See how that first nap is 1:20? Just a little 15 min increase in A time should extend that for you.

Hoepe you both get over that cold quickly, its horrid seeing baby ill, espm when ill yourself. Hugs

[tinydancer]

Ok cool, thank you!

After your advice I extended his awake times to 2:15, and his night sleep did seem to get better. We are down to 1, maybe 2 wake ups now which feels like an improvement. The other day he woke up from a 35min nap seeming very refreshed and awake so I am now trying to stretch him out to 2:30. He's pretty adaptable and seems to be going with it.

With his naps, I am still needing to resettle him after 35-45 minutes so that he'll transition into the next cycle but hopefully this will get better as time goes on. Also, sometimes with the resettling this takes us over the 4hr feed cycle, is this a problem do you think? And I'm still trying to figure out if I need to squeeze a short catnap out in the afternoon, he does seem to battle that one the most!

Thanks for your help!

[becj86]

What's your day look like now? Often you can get away with 3 solid naps  and a 12hr day.

[tinydancer]

Friday has been our best day so far since trying to extend the naps... Today I tried it with a 3 hr awake time after his last nap and then down to bed at 6.30pm, but he has been waking and needing to be resettled a few times already. But maybe he just needs a few days to adjust?? Not sure...

Wake - 6.50am
E - 7.00am (10min bf)
A -
S - 9.05am - 11.00am (1h55m) - woke at 45m & resettled
E - 11.00am (7min bf)
A -
S - 1.25pm - 3.10pm (1h45m) - woke at 45m & resettled
E - 3.10pm (7min bf)
A -
S - 5.50pm - 6.10pm (20min) slept in car, so was able to do only 20mins and without a fuss!
A -
E - 7.10pm (7min bf)
trying to settle for sleep
S - 8.10pm asleep
DF - 10.40pm
awake at 3.20am
awake at 7.00am

[becj86]

Ok, so 2.5hr seems to be giving you decent naps, maybe an extra 5-10min may get him sleeping through that 45min mark but it could also be developmental - its worth a try.

The night looks fine even with the more than 4hr between day feeds, so he's still getting enough calories in the day, nothing to worry about there IMO.

WRT 3hr A time and then the wakings through the early part of the night - those are a sign of OT and 3hr may be a bit much for him. Better to do BT 20min earlier than ideal and get a good night than push through to a later BT, in my experience.

[tinydancer]

Ok, so! It's now been roughly two months since my LOs sleep went haywire. His cold is long gone, no sign of teething (yet!), and yet he is still waking up two-three times a night, maybe once if I am lucky. And in the last couple of nights he has completely resisted his bedtime, taking just under 1hr to settle. Oh yeah, and he now thinks that 6am is a good time to wake up. With the NW, the early wake up and the battle with bedtime I am feeling exhausted.i think he might be too, as he isn't getting any solid stretches overnight.

His NW are all over the show, different times and different length feeds. The only thing that seems to remain consistent is that he will not sleep long than 3hrs at a time. And that he'll wake for every DF. During the day he can go for 4hrs between feeds, if only he could do this at night! :/

Is now the time to do PU/PD at night to wean him off these feeds? Is this the best method?

We initially had some luck with extending A times, but it went back to 2 NW after that. We are working with 2.25 A times (best time for 1.5hr naps with no resettling) at the moment. LO is now 26weeks old.

He settles for naps quite well, if I get the timing right. I have the same routine, music, curtains, verbal cue  and pat his bum, while he strokes my arm and sucks his fingers until he's asleep. I'm currently trying to introduce a lovey. Tonight he decided it was better to play with that rather than sleep, he'd been up for 3.5hrs at this point!! I have to APOP him for the catnap as he is really resistant to this and I cannot for the life of me figure out the best timing for it.

I feel like I have to get the timings exact, otherwise everything goes haywire - is this normal??

[becj86]

At 26 weeks, typical A time is 2:45 to 3hr - you're still a little on the low side there and the NWs and EMWs suggest another increase is in order. Looks like his day is probably stealing from his night. You've got to keep increasing or you end up in this OT/UT loop where you get bad nights from too much day sleep which is necessary from a poor night.

Can you post the last few days' EASY?

[tinydancer]

I think you are totally right about being in a loop - that is definitely what it felt like this morning.
Here are the last few days, I've been keeping track for a while now... Thanks so much for taking a look at it, I really really appreciate your help. I can't quite remember all of the naps that I needed to resettle for... but I think safe to say any that are over 1hr30, as he is like clockwork with length of naps

TUE
nf - 2.00am
awake - 6.05am
E - 6.15am (4min)
A - 6.05-8.25am
S - 8.25-10.10am
E - 10.15am (10min)
A - 10.10-12.50pm
S - 12.50-2.05pm
E - 2.20pm (7min)
A - 2.05-4.10pm
S - 4.10-4.20pm (in car)
A - 4.20pm - 6.40pm
E - 6.20pm (5min)
Bedtime - 6.40pm
DF - 10.00pm (3min )

WED
nf - 12.15am (8min)
nf - 3.38am (10min)
awake - 6.10am
E - 6.15 (4min)
A - 6.10-8.30
S - 8.30-10.00
E - 10.10 (6min)
A - 10.00-12.30pm
S - 12.30-2.25pm (resettled)
E - 2.30pm (4min)
A - 2.25-5.10pm
S - 5.10-5.40pm (in car)
A - 5.40pm-8.00pm
E - 6.30pm
BT - 8.00pm
DF - 10.30pm
nf - 1.20am (3min)
nf - 3.10am (12min)

THU
awake - 6.05am
E - 6.05am (12min)
A - 6.05-8.30am
S - 8.30-9.50am
E - 10.00am
A - 9.50am-12.00pm
S - 12.00pm-12.45pm  (in car) *will wake as soon as car stops
A - 12.45-2.55pm
E - 2.00pm (4min)
S - 2.55-4.30pm
BT - 8.00pm (tried settling from 7.00pm)
DF - 10.00pm (4min)
nf - 10.49pm
nf - 1.15am, woke 40mins after this and I resettled
nf - 5.20am
woke - 6.05am, managed to resettle without a feed until 7am!

TODAY
awake - 7.05am
E - 7.15am (6min)
A - 7.05am - 9.30am
S - 9.30-10.15am (unable to resettle, felt like an UT nap as he will usually go back if still tired)
A - 10.15am - 11.30am (out & about)
S - 11.30-11.40am (in car)
E - 11.40am (6min)
A - 11.40-1.45pm
S - 1.45pm until... here we are now! He made a noise at the 45min mark and has hopefully gone back into another sleep cycle

WRT that 10min CN, If he falls asleep he will wake up thinking he has had a full sleep hence the long A time there. He wasn't showing any tired signs so I just tried him for a sleep after 1hr45, and it took about 20mins to settle him.

The whole day feels like it's been thrown off from that and the 45min CN at the start of the day, do you think I should just go for a early BT after 3hr A? Or is that pushing it? He usually seems to be able to handle a longer A time in the evening... Or maybe he just doesn't want to go to bed!

[becj86]

Definitely that first nap is shrinking at that A time of 2:20 to 2:25 - really need to increase that, though by maybe 15min initially.

Provided he's had a long nap, 3hr A to bed should be ok, I'd think, today.

You have a fairly high sleep needs little person there - not premature, perchance?

[tinydancer]

So update on today, he ended up sleeping for a total of 1hr50 with no resettling and has just had 3hr5 of A time and gone down to sleep without much fuss at all. He was pretty much asleep when I laid him down so maybe exhausted from the strange day.

No, not premature! Only early by 4 days and he's a fairly robust baby, didn't lose any birthweight when he came home etc. When you say high sleep needs, what are the indications of that?

I'll try 2hr45 A time tomorrow, do you think? Do you have any ideas for how I keep feeding him the 4hr schedule with this? Just keep feeding him when he wakes, I guess? Sorry if this is a silly question. I'm doing BLW so he's not really reliant on solids for sustenance at this stage. 

[becj86]

When you say high sleep needs, what are the indications of that?

Just that he sleeps so well on such short A times - not a bad thing, just interesting for me to see as mine was the opposite and had really high A times. He may just be an angel baby too, we shall see

You don't need to worry so much about the 4hrly feedings by this age if he is happy between feeds - you can try a BF topup after you offer solids an hour after the main feed when he wakes if you're worried he won't make it to the next feed, but 2:45+1:30 is 4:15, so it's not that much over the 4hr, so he may be totally fine.

[tinydancer]

Just that he sleeps so well on such short A times

Ah, right! Yeah, he never used to be. He went for a good couple of months only wanting to sleep for 45mins at a time and I wasn't able to resettle him into another sleep cycle. It's so nice to have longer stretches now! After you mentioned being in a UT/OT loop, I was wondering if he was doing these longer sleeps in the AM with no resettling as he was trying to catch up from the disturbed and often shorter nights.

It seems like we've had a bit of improvement since upping to 2:45 A. The first night he woke only the once, at 2am-ish and the same again last night. He still wakes for his df & also seems to be habitually waking at 6am. Maybe this will change once we get a bit more settled in to these new times!

Yesterday was a strange one as we were at my Mum's for her birthday. Lots of people to look at, older cousins to giggle at - he just didn't want to sleep!!

Thanks again, will keep you updated!

[tinydancer]

I think we are getting somewhere!

The last 4 days we've been working with the 3hr A time and down to 2 naps, and he's just waking once at night and sleeping through until 7am! The past few nights he woke between 2am-230am, so I was wondering if it was habitual but then last night he woke at 1am for a feed, and then slept from then until 7am! Longest stretch we've had in a while. He's got a little bit of an upset stomach at the moment, so I'll keep feeding him for now until that clears and then reassess from there.

I'm just wondering, what should I keep an eye on from here? Will his A times likely stay like this for a while or do they keep lengthening at a steady pace?

Thanks again for your help and advice!

[becj86]

Glad you're seeing some improvement

A times keep increasing at a fairly steady pace, really. At around 8 months or so, you will likely see one of your two long naps start to shrink to accommodate the longer A times and still maintain a day of approx. 13hr. This is the beginning of a 6-10 month long process of dropping to one nap. That sounds awful, but its not all bad, around 9-10 months I generally see a routine with one short nap and one long nap solidify and that sticks around for a while til ~12-13 months when the wonder weeks wreak their havoc on sleep (increasing/decreasing sleep needs depending on the child).

What's best to watch for is shrinkage of the nap, return of long happy wakings in the early hours of the morning or early wakings (short nights, not early by the clock). Refusal of one nap or BT is another sign a tweak is needed. If any of those happens 2 times in 3 days, its time to tweak before you run into a bigger problem