5 month old waking before dreamfeed every night! Hungry or habit?

[vthatcher]

My EBF 5 month old has been waking up right before 10pm almost every night for the last month or so. She used to stay asleep until I went to bed around 10/1030 but then at some point she started waking up right around 945/950 crying. I usually just feed her since its so close to when i would DF her anyways but I'm afraid I've created a habitual waking.  I've tried shh/pat and PuPd but she just gets angrier ans angrier so I end up feeding her
She is definitely hungry as she will take a full feed from both sides.  She is on a 3 hr 45 to 4hr Easy but she does usually get hungry after 3.5 hours and her last feed is around 645/7. I was feeding her after her last nap around 5/530 then again at 7 but she still seems to wake up hungry at 945ish.
Should I keep feeding her or do I need to cut her off? Oh and she also wakes up to eat every 3 to 4 hours through the night and has since she was 3.5 months old. She's on the small side and has probably just hit 12lbs. 
Thanks in advance!

[Kellyjs]

Many, many EBF bubbas can't get to 4hr easy, please don't push her to that if she's hungry throughout the day. We like to think Tracy would've updated her books with the new information if she were still with us. Have the NF's increased after you've spaced the day feeds more?

Can I take a peek at what your day time routine looks like please? Posted in real time in easy format? So just what yesterday looked like for example including all NW's and how you resettle.

My DD always woke for the DF, it's not too much of a problem. But I wouldn't feed again half an hour later just because that's the DF time. Look forward to hearing from you xx

[vthatcher]

Gosh sorry it took me so long to get back here! Well now we seem to be in the middle of a growth spurt or teething (she's broken 2 teeth this week)because she is feeding every 2.5 to 3 hours day and night!  She has been occasionally making it past 10pm if I feed her closer to 7pm though.  I am going take note of her easy times tomorrow and pop back on here after that. We had a morning at the beach today so her naps were all off!

[Kellyjs]

Beach sounds lovely! It's -2c here atm! Teething can really mess things up, try medicating with ibuprofen rather than paracetamol as it works better. Look forward to hearing from you soon xx

[vthatcher]

brrrrrr!! Oh man...my in laws live in Lancashire! I can't believe all the flooding that has happened up there and now snow!   
Ok-I think I figured out why she's been waking up before her DF. She basically wakes up every 3 hours to eat during the night.  During the day she occasionally can go for 3.5-4 hours between feeds but once bedtime hits she starts waking up every 3 hours and occasionally even 2.5 hours!
Here is a normal EASY for her although lately her wake up times have been all over the place.

Wake up at 6:30am-Eat between 6:30 & 7am depending on her last night time feed
A-2 to 2.15 hours
S-8:30/845am (This nap goes wonky sometimes and she wakes up after only an hour in which case everything shifts)
E-10/10:30am
A
S-12/12:30
E-2/2:10pm
A
S-410/4:20pm
E-5:15/5:30pm: this feed sometimes ends up only being one side because I know I'm going to be tanking her up before bed
A-she gets a bath every 3-5 days right now
E-Tank up anywhere between 6:45-7pm
S-Between 7 & 730 depending on when I woke her from her last nap
DF-If I fed her at 6:45pm she often wakes up at 9:45/9:50pm. Basically she almost always wakes up on her own but very occasionally if I tanked her up after 7pm I will get to her first.
E-1amish
E-3:30/4am
Start over

So, I'm not sure if it's normal for a 5.5 month old to still be needing to eat every 2.5-3 hours at night but that's what she's been doing! Should I be trying to wean her off those 2 feeds? She pretty much always takes a pretty full feed when she wakes up and always goes right back to sleep.  She sleeps in a cosleeper right next to my bed so I just roll over, pick her up and feed her in bed but then she goes right back into the bassinet. Sometimes I have fallen asleep while she's nursing so I have no idea how long she's really been sucking! 

[Kellyjs]

Ok, so the day doesn't look too bad. I wonder if we should push that first A a little as it seems an UT nap in there. Perhaps 15mins should just do it for now? Fancy having a go to see?

The second nap looks good, so we'll hold that for now at teh same A time. It may be that we need to increase that A if se starts taking a longer nap in th morning, but we'll play it by ear.

By increasing the first A, I might look at reducing the last A by 15mins too. You're trying for 2hrs A in there too after a short CN and that might be a tad too much?

So she's actually taking a good feed at each NW? I wonder if she's reverse cycling considering she's going quite long (not excessively though) in the day time? We could look at reducing the length of time she feeds at night and see if she compensates by taking more int he day? I might try and get some BF back up about that as I'm definitely not an expert after giving up at 4mo! xx

[vthatcher]

Ooh ok-so you actually should have a shorter A time between the CN and bedtime? I was wondering about that! I also was wondering if she was eating more at night because she was going longer during the day...I might try feeding her more frequently during the day and see what happens.  Last night I was able to get to her DF before she woke up on her own but then she woke up quite a bit afterwards and one or 2 times she probably wasn't hungry and maybe just had tooth issues or upset tummy.  Oh well-trial and error!

[Kellyjs]

Yes definitely decrease the A time after a shorter nap. They just can't go as long. And some just get more tired as the day goes on anyway. As time goes on, you may start to see a preference for either a longer first A/shorter last A, or even the other way round especially around the time she eventually goes to 2 naps.

If you could try feeding 3hourly and see if that helps? Some/most EBF bubbas never get to a 4hr easy until solids are firmly established around6/7/8mo.

What I would try and do at the same time after a 3-hourly feeding day, is try and resettle her at night with ssh/pat or your usual settling method and try and delay a feed until at least 4hrs. Dyt you could try that? xx

[*Ali*]

How does LO go to sleep for naps? Just wondering if it might be an independent sleep issue.

Or could it be discomfort? Any reflux or teething etc.?

[Kellyjs]

How's things going now? Any success? xx

[vthatcher]

O my goodness I'm so sorry it took me so long to get back here! So I've tried upping her awake time to 2.5 hours and shortening her awake time after her catnap. She has always napped quite wonderfully and has no problem sending herself off to sleep for naps or bedtime. In the past I've had good success with shh pat for naps but lately she's woken up around the 45min mark for her first nap and seemed quite happy.   Night time is another story. Lately she has been waking up every 2.5 to 3 hours and last night she even woke up after only 1.5 hours after nursing and she was absolutely hysterical. I tried patting and then shushing and patting then pu/pd and she just got more and more angry and hysterical until I gave up and just fed her.  I'm actually wondering if she is in her 6 month growth spurt because as I'm writing this in nursing her. She woke up crying only 2 hours after bedtime which she never does and once again no soothing worked and her little mouth was making the nursing shape.  Her feeds were kind of all over the place before bed though because I'm home alone with my 5 yr old and I had to keep interrupting her feeds to make dinner etc. Ugh I feel like we are moving backwards not forward!

[Kellyjs]

Argh poor you, it does sound like a bit of a blip. Remember they do like to increase their A time quite rapidly from now on in. Many 6mo are doing 3hrs A ready to drop that CN. have a read of this link in the meantime, but if you wouldn't mind posting your current rotuine we'll take a peek xx

p.s any teething going on? xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[vthatcher]

Her routine has been all.over the place this week...we've had stuff going on almost every morning!  She also had 3 shots today at her 6 month checkup which i think really threw her off today.  I'm also trying to figure out how I'm going to tweak everything around my son's school pickup every afternoon.  Ugh..the life of a 2nd child.  And yes she is definitely teething...drooling like a tap!

Here's today whacky routine!
7am (I think. ..her eyes were.wide open when I woke up today) wake up and nurse
930ish Sleep(needed her to nap because had to be able to nurse her and leave for the dr appt by 1040pm)
1010 Nurse
12 10pm Sleep
2 10pm nurse
4pm Sleep
440pm wake
504pm Nurse
630pm Nurse
7pm Bedtime

[Kellyjs]

Hey this doesn't look too bad at all actually. The life of a second child has to fit it witht he first doesn't it? And I've seen many people implement a short nap, long nap, short CN type routine very well for the time being.

What I will say is that is a long A before Bt as you mentioned before. But I wouldn't want to shorten your day by much either. If you managed to move that first nap out a bit I think that could help decrease the last A to BT and work I would think? xx

[vthatcher]

Well, so last night she woke up at 4:40 from her last nap again and went to bed around 7:10.  She then woke up at 9 crying BUT I did PU/PD for 20 minutes or so and got her back to sleep. hoorary! I then did a DF at 10:30 and after a bit of faffing about in her bed she fell back asleep after I held her hands down and slept until around 2:20am when I fed her because it had been 4 hours since her last feed. I'm not sure if I was supposed to but she did take a full feed. Unfortunately she was then up for almost 2 hours whinging and doing little short burst cries.  I am in the process of trying to wean her from the swaddle and I"m thinking she's having a hard time adjusting because as soon as I finally gave in and fully swaddled her she fell right to sleep until 7am. So it's getting better but I actually got less sleep then when she was waking 2x a night to eat, ha! I'm not sure if she's supposed to still be waking up to eat because in her book it seems Tracy thinks babies should be able to sleep through by 4/5 months, what do you think?

Ok so then today I decided to push her first nap out to see if she would nap longer...this has been our routine so far
7am-Wake and feed
10:10am Sleep-I know this was a bit long but I lost track of time out in the sun! ;-)
10:50 Wake crying...tried PU/PD until 11 when it was time for her next feed. I don't understand how to get in a long nap if her activity time takes up almost all her non eating time? How does she have time for a 1.5 or 2 hour nap if by the time she takes her nap it's only an hour til her next feed?
OMG and she just roller over from back to front for the first time while I was writing this! 
And I just realized that this last part is becoming a nap issue not a night waking issue so should I move this post to Naps/EASY since now it's more about either extending naps or figuring out to work around school sched?

[Kellyjs]

Yay to the rolling! It's so much fun isn't it?  . Totally fine to keep the post here if you'd like?

We have to get a bit creative with the feeding times around now when the A time lengthens. It's very usual to have an EAEASY around now. A top up feed 15ins before her nap should help her not to wake from hunger. I would just concentrate on not feeding to sleep which wil be difficult as you're lengthening the A times, then just do a quick A before nap.

So very jealous of your sunshine.. wind and rain here  xx

[vthatcher]

Aha! The top up makes sense to me and it is what I would do when I was leaving her to nap at my mom's house so she wouldn't wake up hungry.  Well, today she took a 40 minute morning nap and then I tried to do Pu/PD until her feed time which was sort of messed up because I let her nurse and sleep this morning as I was soo tired from yesterday.  And currently as I write I have successfully gotten her past the 45 minute mark by just doing NOTHING!  She started cranky crying and fussing a bit at the 40 minute mark but I just ignored her and she got quiet again and then she fussed on and off for about 10 minutes or so but now she seems like she is fully back asleep again!! Which leads me to the though that I think it's probably time to move her to her crib because it does seem a bit cramped in her co-sleeper these days! Boohoo now I will actually have to get out of bed to soothe or nurse her!

So I shouldn't tell you that I'm currently sitting in a tshirt and shorts and it's about 70 degrees F right now? ;-) Here wind and rain is an exciting novelty!

[Kellyjs]

I'd totally be up for a swap!! Might be a cold sunny day here today which is much better than yesterday, I hate being housebound with a crazy toddler  . Apparently it's 45f here today (had to google that from Celsius  ). Basically freezing!

Yay to the longer nap! When I moved DD it wasn't as bad as I first thought. I think I was actually responding to her too quickly when she was in my room. When she was further away you do use more of tracy's method in that you wake up and listen before you actually get out of bed to see if they need you. Keep me posted xx

 

[vthatcher]

Well, she napped like a dream in her crib yesterday-2 two hour naps...BUT her nights have been awful again! She is still in the bassinet by our bed since she's been waking up so much but she falls asleep like a dream around 7/730 and stays asleep until I come in to do the DF when she actually wakes completely up right before I pick her up.  After that she starts waking up every 2-3 hours throughout the night fussing and moaning and crying and waving her arms in the air.  Sometimes I can get her back to sleep by holding her hands down or rolling her on her side or tummy but twice last night she was up for almost an hour crying and fussing...it seems like she would almost fall asleep and then I would lay back down and she would start fussing again-this carried on until she finally just started wailing until I fed her because it had been 3.5-4 hours since her last feed.  So for the last 2 nights she's been up from around 1:30/2 for half hour or 45 minutes until I feed her and then around 5ish until 6am until I give up and feed her again. I'm sure this is AP and I should just tough it out but I'm so tired!  Should I be doing PU/PD from the start or trying the Pat on the back, holding hands down, etc first? I feel like she fusses for so long she eventually gets hungry and then starts really crying.  This has happened quite a bit since we unswaddled her and put her in one of those sleep sacks and since she started rolling so I'm not sure if that's what's going on or if it's the fact that I recently started eating dairy again.  I was off dairy for the last 6 months because it made her super gassy and poopy when she was a bitty baby.  The other thing I thought it might be is that the bassinet is getting too small for her and so she's feeling cramped when she tries to roll over.
So many things going on...so many questions!

[Kellyjs]

Yay to the longer naps. Is the CN still there with the longer naps?

I wouldn't worry about her waking fr the DF my bubba always did. I actually like the routine of it, and think she appreciated it too knowing she would be fed. One thing I will say is that it is worth burping them if they do wake for the DF. I know Tracy says you don't have to, but that's when they are taking an actual DF and not awake. I found DD settled much better if I winded her.

I would check for teething as well as it could well be discomfort. It could well be the dairy unfortunately  too especially as she's so unsettled after the DF. Rolling over can create havoc with sleep too until they learn to roll back again, it's just one of those things we can to wait out. Dyt you could try the winding after the DF and cutting back on the dairy again to see if tat makes a difference? Also, keep a note of the day and night sleep for me and we'll see if there's a pattern between less day sleep and better night sleep or vice versa xx

[vthatcher]

Ugh having such a hard time cutting the dairy now that I put it back in! She didn't sleep much during the day yesterday and still woke up a ton.  She seems to prefer being on her tummy because every time she wakes up at night she is on her back with her arms flailing in the air and often will go back to sleep if I roll her onto her side or tummy.  Although during her naps she will often sleep her whole nap on her back with her arms behind her head so I don't know what is going on.  I can say that when we put her down for her nap we use one of those Velcro swaddleMe things but with her arms out and at bedtime I've been putting her in a Sleep Sack so perhaps the SwaddleMe keeps her from rolling as much?  Last night when she woke up around 1:30am after her DF she just kept moaning and fussing and seemed uncomfortable. She would seemingly fall back asleep after I put her on her side or tummy and put pressure on her back and tummy, but then maybe a couple minutes later she would be at it again and would have rolled onto her back.  She did this for half an hour until she was full on crying and I decided to just feed her whereupon she fell back asleep until 5:30am where I fed her again and then she fell back asleep until around 6:30am when she woke for the day.  She did pass gas a couple of times but still fussed afterward so not sure if it was gas causing her discomfort or teething.  I may try giving her some Tylenol before bed or at her DF but she isn't fussing during the day at all about gas or teething so not sure why she fusses so much at night. Ugh my hubby and I are both so tired right now! This is worse then when she was a newborn because at least then I could just feed her and go back to sleep but now I'm so wary of training her to expect food every time!

[Kellyjs]

You're doing everything right hun, These bubbas just like to keep us on our toes! Just keep me posted and if you wanted to let me know the last day or so easy we can take a peek and see if anything stands out xx

[vthatcher]

Thank you for all your help! All actually seems to be going pretty well these days...the one question I have is this...she has been waking up about 3-3.5 hours after her DF at night-so anywhere between 1:15 and 1:45am.  She cries some and I do PU/PD until she seems to start settling back into sleep but then she starts just fussing and doing these little moans and cries and she rolls around her crib or rubs her face in the mattress. This goes on and on and on and eventually she will start getting louder and there will be some sharp short cries interspersed in the moans and fussing.  I've tried putting my hand on her back, holding her hands down, keeping her from rolling, sticking my finger in her mouth(she gnaws on it like crazy when I do this) and eventually after 30m min to an hour of her fussing and moaning and occasionally going quiet and tricking us into thinking she's fallen back asleep only to start all over again, I will eventually feed her whereupon she takes a full feed from both sides and then falls asleep until morning around 630 or 7.  My hubby would like me to just feed her right away because he has to work in the morning and cant fall asleep with her fussing and crying while I try to sleep train her.  Do you think this would be ok or should I be trying to get her back to sleep on her own without feeding her at first? I've yet to get her to do that actually-last night I tried for almost an hour. She isn't really full on crying-just fussing like she's uncomfortable. I gave her Tylenol at her DF last night thinking maybe she's teething but she still woke up.
Also, one last question-I still have her taking 3 naps a day albeit 2 short ones of about an hour then a longer one of 1.5 hours in the afternoon because of having to pick up my son from school. It seems to work for us but would that be messing her up at all?  She sometimes is only up for 2hrs and 15 minutes in between but goes to sleep easily on her own and stays asleep until I wake her up.

[*Ali*]

I do think she sounds genuinely hungry and a DF and NF is well within the normal range at this age. So I would just feed and hope she sleeps until morning.

[Kellyjs]

I'm so sorry I've been so, so busy as of late, please accept my apologies. How's it going now? Thanks Ali for jumping in xx

[vthatcher]

Thanks ladies! WEll we've had one tough night where she woke up several times a night and one great night(last night) where after her DF she slept all the way until 4:20ish this morning and went back to sleep after eating until 7am! wooowoo! So, I'm hoping the off nights are just from teething pain(she has been extra fussy during the day) or she didn't eat enough during the day.
Kellyjs you have been amazing and thank you for talking me through this and thanks Ali for the last reply as well! Wish I could bake you gals cookies or something! ;-)

[*Ali*]

FX the good nights become more frequent.
I love cookies!