5 month old - short naps, nw and dummy problems etc

[nixm]

So we have a couple of issues and I don't know what to address first. My dd is 5months old now. She has sttn since 5w old which was a dream! But since wonder weak 19 and the 4months sleep regression everything has gone down the drain. Her dummy has now become a sleep prop and she wakes multiple times a night for it. We are trying the pantley pull off to wean her from it. Some background:

We have been doing the easy routine from early on. She has however always been a catnapper so we do our variation of it. She has reflux and is on meds for it.

Do I first try and extend naps or wean from the dummy? Or do I do both at once?

For naps if I let her suck the dummy throughout the nap the best I get is 55mins. She will wake up still sucking it then take it out or spit it out and start talking. If I go in and put it back and give her her lovey she sometimes falls back asleep but never for longer than 10 mins. This would be a great nap for her. More often than not it's a 30-45min nap. Again if I go in and replug the dummy she will fall asleep again for 10mins or so. Should I continue going in and trying for more sleep? If so for how long? With these horrible naps I don't know what her A time should be either, atm it's anything from 1h30m -2h30m.

Then the dummy issue and NW. I have not tried weaning for naps as they are horrible already but we are doing it at night. Since all these issues started she will go down for the night between 7-8 (with a lot of protesting) then wake after 1 sleep cycle (30-45min). During the night she'll wake multiple times for her dummy. She doesn't feed during the night except when she's going through a growth spurt. So she'll go 10-12h without a feed. She is picking up more than enough weight (97percentile).

Her schedule is all over the place cause I am very lost and have no idea where to begin. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

[trimbler]

Hi there, and welcome Tbh it does sounds like the dummy has become a problem and that it will be best to wean it now in the long run - it sounds like it really helped her for the first few months though, which is great We'll need to think about what sort of routine to aim for, so to help with that, please could you post the timings of her eating and sleeping for a couple of days, so we can get an idea of where she is now and what she might need? Eg

E 7am
S 9-10
E 10:30
S 12-1
Etc - write down what actually happens, with comments on how she was after naps, ie if she seemed really tired and grumpy, or if she seemed happy and refreshed.

So you've been using a Pantley type method to pull the dummy out just before she falls asleep at night? And she's doing this? But still needing the dummy to calm down when she wakes? Is that right? Have you tried using any shh pat or similar to soothe her, so that eventually you can replace the dummy with shh pat, and then gradually do less of that until she's settling without your help? Just be aware that you may need to use PUPD and wean the dummy cold turkey if the Pantley method isn't working for you, I'm not really familiar with how long it takes...

[nixm]

HI there. Yes I have tried the shh pat but it does nothing for her. Also tried PUPD and that just made things exponentially worse! As soon as I put her down the first time she started screaming and crying uncontrollably. Later on even picking her up wouldn't help. When I took her out of the room she settled down but as soon as we entered again she started crying while still in my arms. So I don't think that is the way to go.

This weekend was a bit all over the place cause we went out on Saturday and had friends over on Sunday. Here is Sunday and Monday and Today thus far

Sunday:
A 7:10
E 7:34
S 8:47-9:27
E 9:53
S 10:43-11:24  - woke up crying at 11:03, resettled with dummy and lovey
Meds 11:26 - - Have to give reflux meds and wait 30min
E 11:56 
S 12:59-13:23
E 14:04
E 15:05
S 15:42-16:16 - did w2s at 27min
S 16:26-17:48 - woke up at 16:41, resettled with dummy and lovey
E 17:56
E 19:01
S 21:05-05:48 (woke at 1:36, 4:40,5:26)
E 5:48
S 6:02-7:31
E 7:51
S 9:02-9:41 (phone woke her at 9:18)
E 9:55
S 11:28-12:06
Meds:12:18
E 12:50
S 14:23-15:09
E 15:23
S 16:34-17:12 (woke at 16:46)
E 17:15
E 19:36
S 20:05-6:25 (woke at 23:05, 3:20, 5:20)
E 6:28
S 7:26-8:32 (woke at 8:20 tried to resettle, took 4 mins)
E 8:41
S 10:05 (still busy, 38min and she has opened her eyes a couple of times but it's closed again)

As you can see it is all over the pace! For her reflux I try and feed her more often so she has smaller meals. When she wakes it's normally a bit of a moan for a couple of seconds and then she starts chatting. I leave her be until she calls out in the hope that she might fall asleep again. I try to never let her nap past 5pm but with her schedule so all over the place I am not sure what to do. I am also not sure if I should try and resettle her when she wakes and for how long I should try and how many attempts. The other day she did 30min, 10min, 10min, 70min (resettling time is normally 5 mins). Normally I would only resettle once but this has me thinking otherwise.

[trimbler]

Oh dear that sounds exhausting (((hugs)))

The first thing I noticed is that her first A time seems quite short, at 5mo I'd expect her to be going at least 2h minimum. Could you start by trying to push that out? I suspect that she's got herself into a UT/OT cycle, ie she's UT going down for that first nap (which probably makes it even harder for her to settle without the dummy, which is obviously a strong sleep cue/prop for her), and so she's not tired enough to transition into a second sleep cycle (ie takes a short nap), but then as the day goes on, all the short naps result in OT, which also causes short naps, and so it continues...

The other thing I wondered was whether her reflux meds are at the right dose for her - do you think they're working at the moment? I spotted a few very short naps where she woke after just 20mins or so, and that often indicates some discomfort When did you last see the doc about her reflux? Is her cot inclined? Have you found that she'll sleep upright at all, eg in a sling? I really relied on the sling at this age when mine struggled to have long naps - as a reliable way to catch up on OT with a nice long nap, before going for the next nap back in the cot. I think my DS especially benefitted from that as with hindsight I think he had undiagnosed silent reflux I just didn't have the confidence to ask for a second opinion at the time. When they're OT they have a much harder time settling, especially if they haven't learnt how to self settle before. But if you haven't used a sling up until now, I probably wouldn't start, it would only introduce a new prop...I think. Either way, if you 're going to sleep train you'll need to make sure she's as comfortable as possible, or she may just associate sleep with pain, which could explain some of her resistance.

As for PUPU/shh pat etc, they do involve some crying, since you're changing the way she's used to going to sleep. How long did you try for? Tracy recommended trying for 45mins, then coming out of the room for a 10min break or so, having really quiet time, before going back in to try for another 45mins, and if still not settled, give up and feed. Then make the next A time really short before going back and trying again, hopefully she'll then crash out! Same sort of thing for resettling, I'd try for 45mins or so before giving up and feeding. But if her reflux isn't quite under control and she's still in discomfort, don't use PUPD, as it can make the reflux symptoms worse. Instead, you'll want to work on calming her in the cot, only pick up if she's really showing you that she needs you to do that. I know it's really, really hard. Also if the crying makes the reflux worse, you'll need to do something different. But if you do want to wean the dummy, and it sounds as if that would help, you'll need to stick with it and be consistent - get support IRL too as it's hard! On the other hand, if you think the reflux does need more management, just work on extending that first A for now, until you're sure she's comfortable. Be aware that the first time you try it she may not sleep at all, the next time she may finally fall asleep after over an hour, then it may be quicker and then she may seem to regress again, but if you stick with it, providing she's comfortable, she'll eventually learn a new way to settle. In the process you may find for example that she prefers a still hand on her, rather than a pat - I think this would be quite usual for a reflux LO actually. She may prefer a hum to a shh. She may (like my DD) need you to get your whole arm in there to snuggle up against to start with, to feel you close. But eventually you'll be able to do less and less. But anyway, the first step is to get her sleeping in her cot without her dummy (if you feel it's the right time to do this - I don 'to want to push you if not) however you need to do it. Sorry I've rambled, you may find this interesting - particularly the second post in the thread, which contains an interview with Tracy which I found really helpful at this stage: Sleep interviews and member consults with Tracy

[nixm]

Hi

Thanks for your reply! Definitely agree with the UT/OT cycle! I actually phoned her doctor on monday as I do think her dosage needs adjusting. So we are trying it for the next week. I tried the pu/pd for 40 min then left for 10 and soon as we went back into her her room she started crying even in my arms. So I quit. For now I think I will just leave the dummy be and first try and sort out her naps because she goes down very easily with the dummy. In the past naps was a massive struggle so in that regard the dummy is helping. When she naps she keeps it in for the whole nap and wakes up still with it in her mouth. Then she removes it and starts playing with it. So she is not waking early cause it fell out.

This morning I kept her awake longer for the first A time. We actually went for breakfast as it was my mom's bday. So definetely not ideal when trying to work on sleep. SHe was awake for 2h10m and then fell asleep in her pram (there she will fall asleep without her dummy). Here is our day so far:

S 19:54-05:39 (woke 3 times)
E 5:40
S 5:58-7:25
E 8:26
S 9:47-10:14
E 10:51
S 11:41-14:10 (resettled at 12:22-12:28, I woke her at 14:10 - don't know if I should have left her?)
E 14:15
E 15:38
S 15:49-16:25 (woke 16:12)
E 16:43
E 17:51

18:30 now and trying to put her to bed.

[trimbler]

Ok that sounds like a good plan, wait until the reflux meds are controlling her reflux symptoms and she's more comfortable before trying PUPD again, hopefully she won't then be associating it with pain. In the meantime working on the naps routine using the dummy.

But as an aside, if/when you do try PUPD again, assuming she's no longer in discomfort, do try and stick to it for a few days before giving up - crying is to be expected since it's a new way of settling which she isn't used to, but if you stop in the middle and give the dummy then you're inadvertently teaching her that if she cries long enough then you'll give her the dummy. Hard though it is, the first few times she may well only sleep once she's exhausted herself but it's not the same as CIO as you're with her the whole time, reassuring her with your presence and physical contact.

How's the night time dummy weaning going?

Bit hard to tell from that day as the first nap was in the pram so there are other factors. Tomorrow you could try just 1h45 so it's not such a big push, if you're in and can do it in the cot with the dummy? Hold for a day or two and then push to 2h, for the time being?

[nixm]

Last night was horrendous! I think we might start with pu/pd tonight cause no one is getting much sleep. And it's the weekend so if I want to cave hubby can take over.

I am a bit scared though cause atm she goes down easily for naps with het dummy and lovey. Just hope that will continue to be the case once tge dummy has been weaned!

[trimbler]

Oh dear poor all of you It's often a good idea to start at the weekend if that's when you have the support in place, but please don't rush into it if you think she's still in discomfort from the reflux?

Even if she's comfortable, PUPD will be hard work and it's likely that she'll struggle to settle at first. The first couple of days especially could be really hard, and even once you start to see improvements you should expect setbacks too. But if you're consistent and the routine is appropriate, you should over time see her starting to settle herself more reliably, and then you'll find that she no longer expects/needs the dummy when she wakes. I'm sorry if this is a bit late for you, but here's a link which you may find useful, all info taken from the books but just together in one place: Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

[nixm]

Thanks! We started last night at 6pm. She finally went down at 8pm from exhaustion As she hadbeen awake 4h. But she slept through till 4:45!! So I fed her and tried hard to keep her awake. I put her back down and she fell alseep within 5mins I think. No crying or fussing. And she slept till 7:15. So putting her down was horrible but at least she slept great!  But this morning at 8am she is already rubbinh her eyes and staring into space. Do I push a longer awake time or try and put her down?

[trimbler]

Oh sorry too late to answer this for you, what happened in the end? Well done for perservering last night,MIT paid off in the end hmm in general for today at least I might be inclined not to push too much since she'll probably take much longer to settle anyway, so perhaps go for your usual A times and then by the time she settles it will end up being longer anyway. Just make a note of what happens so we can look for patterns

[nixm]

Yeah I put her down a bit earlier and it went OK. The next nap was horrible though. Loads of crying and fighting. The same with bed time. So after 2h of really bad crying I fed her bit kept her awake (she had been awake for 4h by then). She drank quite a lot and it calmed her down. Enough so that when I put her down she didn't start crying immediately. I started to notice that even just looking at me agitated her more so I gave her her lovey and just laid next to the cot. Everytime she moaned I just reassured her verbally and it seemed to do the trick. After about 15mins she fell asleep.

So this morning for her first nap she started crying as soon as I closed the curtains. Everytime we left the room she would stop and start again when entering. So I decided to feed her again as clearly the sucking helps her to calm down. Again keeping her awake. Then I did the same as the evening and she went down without crying. For the next nap I fed her at 1h45min awake time so I didn't need to keep her awake. Put her down very awake and moved out of sight. When the moaning started I just said our key phrases and she calmed down. Again asleep within 15mins. She's still waking after 30mins though. For the first nap she fell asleep on her own again afyer 10mins awake but only slept another 10. The 2nd there was a bit of moaning but I just talked over the monitor and it worked. She was awake for 20mins and fell asleep again. Still sleeping now and it's been an hour!

I think the pu/pd and even the shh/pat is just to stimulating for her. I also don't really know how to her to calm down before bed without feeding/sucking. It's like anythin I try just stimulated her. If I pick her up she is so interested in everything around her as it is a new vantage point. So no walking or rocking. She is impartial to reading and massage. Do think it's fine if we do feeds before sleep bit not feed to sleep? Will this just become another prop? I am starting to play the same song (ewan the dreamsheep lullaby) with the feed and keep her lovey there too so hopefully one day the song and the lovey will be enough to calm her.

[trimbler]

Well done, you're both doing amazingly well Do be aware that there may be setbacks in the progress - just continue to be consistent with what you're doing when that happens, and you'll find it will start to improve again. Once she's managing to get to sleep more easily, we should find that we can start to work on the routine so that she can begin to take longer naps. You may well still need to resettle her if she wakes early in a nap, as many LOs manage to settle themselves at the start of a nap but still need help to resettle during naps  but the initial self settling will help with this eventually.

It looks to me that you really know what she needs and are doing just the right thing with that feed before the nap - it's actually quite common for LOs to need a top up before naps at this age, since they need to be stretching their A times and nap lengths but many can't manage the 4h+ gap between feeds to stick to a pure EAS routine, so it looks more like EAES for a while, and once she starts solids you should find that eventually the pre-nap top up bf can be replaced with breakfast/lunch. Just make sure she's not too drowsy when you put her down, if possible, get something else in between the feed and pd, eg putting her in sleeping bag or swaddle, if she uses them? You may even be able to feed in another room and then go into her bedroom. But I'm confident that you know what you're doing, just go at the pace that you're both comfortable with

How are the nights going?

[nixm]

Last night was the worst night we have had in months!! But she started leap 5 of the wonder weeks so hoping it's just that combined with the lack of dummy. She was just fighting sleep. Tried from 6pm to put her down and she only passed oit at 10pm  then she woke at 12 screaming took an hour to get her down again. Woke again at 5 screaming.  I fed her both times. For the 12 one I she didn't fell asleep on the boob but I wooe her which severely ed her off. Hence the hour it took to get her back down. What donyou do with middle of the night feedings? Is it fine if she falls asleep like that? For the 5pm one I let her fall asleep but removed my boob once she was just using me as a dummy. She was still a bit asleep. But when I picked her up she woke up a bit and as soon as I put her down she closed her eyes. She wasn't fast asleep as she started doing her leg thumping (think it's her way of self soothing) and eventually slept until 7am waking up happy as can be.

Naps have always been the toughest so I am not sure what happened yesterday cause putting her down for the naps was really easy. At night she sleeps in our room though and it's quite light compared to her room that's got blockout curtains. I might put her in her room tonight and then transfer and dreamfeed when I go to bed.

It also seems like she wants to go down to 2 naps. The past 2 days she has woken from her second nap at 4pm. And I read somewhere that you shouldn't do naps past 5pm. So I am not too sure what to do about that cause her wake times and naps are too short for this.  Might just be because of all the changes now?

[trimbler]

Oh dear, sorry about that night! What was her routine like during the day before? Glad the naps were easier so that was without the dummy?

Not sure where you are, is it light at bedtime? May be an idea to try putting her to bed in her room, or else black out your room. When were you thinking of moving her into her own room at night? Some do fine at 5mo or even earlier, but I know the SIDS advice is to wait until 6mo. She could find it a bit confusing spending the night in two different places, but perhaps worth a try if you can't blacken your own room.

As for night feedings, tbh I didn't really worry about feeding to sleep at this age - especially if it's not a prop the rest of the time. I'd avoid doing that at BT, but for some night feeds, especially around 5am, it can definitely be much easier to just feed to sleep If it's becoming a problem, she'll be waking multiple times a night and not be able to go back to sleep without a feed. If that's not happening, I wouldn't personally worry about it too much. Actually it's really positive that she woke a little when you put her down, it means she had some good practice in self settling and managed it good that you're recognising the signs of her self soothing too

[nixm]

Sorry for being a bit MIA but things have been quite rough. I have not yet caved with the dummy but now she is nursing to sleep. I am not convinced that her reflux is under control so going to the doc tomorrow cause we just have constant screaming. I think the dummy was helping quite a lot with it cause now she just feeds more which is just making it worse. Not really sure what to do about it. The only positive is that nursing to sleep doesn't cause her to wake up during the night. But getting her down for bed has become quite the nightmare .