Predictable Unpredictability - Please help us!

[labrodyk]

Oh it was a horrible night!! I rang mum in tears today asking for advice on what I should do with her. No surprise she had nothing. Lol.

Ok, so I let her sleep (and made her fall back asleep) today for naps because I knew she was tired. I didn't really follow times just put her down when she started to get fussy and not happy despite changing activities. I pulled back the A times slightly to try and help her catch up at least...

Unfortunately our new house is quite open with floor boards throughout so I'm finding that both naps today she was woken unintentionally with noise (AM nap was a dog outside and PM nap was me banging a pan in the kitchen!). I've put a vaporiser on in her room but I'd hardly call it white noise - do you have any suggestions for what I could use or will she get used to it? I've had to buy some black out curtains as her room gets the morning sun and is very bright.
BT my husband was back home and of course, no crying for him! Lol.

WU: 6.50
OOB: 7.15
E: 7.40
A:
E: 8.30. 120ml bottle
A:
S: 9.40; 9.42-10.16.
^^ woke crying as a dog started barking was trying to settle and fell asleep briefly but woke again at 10.30
S: 10.55-11.47
E: 12.15. solids
A:
E: 1.30. Bottle
S: 2.25; 2.35-3.10-4.07 (woke crying after 35 minutes as I accidentally woke her banging in the kitchen but she resettled).
E: 5.10. Solids
A:
E: 6.20. Bottle
BT: 6.45; slight crying but asleep by 7.00!

[labrodyk]

Off the back of yesterday she pulled a 12hr night (but unsettled briefly at 5am but resettled herself!)

Morning nap she was really visibly tired so put her down at 2hr50 A and she was asleep at 3hr A. Woke after 1hr 15/20min. Should I adjust next A at all?

[becj86]

I probably would just go with 2:50/3hr again.

[labrodyk]

This is what happened today Bec! Her A times are getting shorter and her A to BT tonight was 3hrs and she's crying and screamed when hubby put her down and won't settle vs last night at 2.5 A she was asleep in 10-15 minutes quietly. She was tired at dinner, rubbing food in her eyes so I think she's picked up a second wind tonight as she's crying but eyes are wide awake.

WU: 7.00
E: 7.30. Solids
A:
E: 8.30. Bottle
A: 2hr50 into bed
S: 9.50; 10.00-11.17
E: 12.00. Solids
A:
E: 1.10. Bottle
A: 2hr45 into bed
S: 2.00; 2.06-2.36! Then resettled until 3.40
^^ went down crying and fussing. Difficulty settling
E: 4.00. Snack
A:
E: 5.00. Solids
A:
E: 6.10. Bottle
BT: 6.30; not asleep until after 7 and kept crying out 45+ minutes later
^^ screaming/crying and very upset

NW: 11.24. Seemed stuck on tummy was crying. Held my hands on her until she fell back asleep at 11.38
NW: 11.24
NW: 3.00-4.40. Trying to settle her PLUS 2 bottles later she finally went back to sleep!!!

Of course my 3.5yo decided to wake her up as he had an equally crappy night and ended up in our bed after Audrey woke him up at 11 and he couldn't get back to sleep.

Cooooffffffffeeeeeeeee. STAT.

[becj86]

WU: 7.00E: 7.30. SolidsA:E: 8.30. BottleA: 2hr50 into bedS: 9.50; 10.00-11.17

Little bit UT here, but I'm guessing she was upset for an hour before you put her into bed...

I think she does seem to need that shorter A to bed.

Just a thought - she's not hot or cold is she? I know that probably isn't it but worth considering, used to be one of my first set of questions.

[labrodyk]

Morning Bec! I just updated my post with the remainder of our shocking night! Why does it vary so much?!? And my 3.5yo is in MAJOR trouble after deliberately going into her room and waking her before 6!!

I don't think she's too hot or cold...maybe at the 3am waking but after trying to settle her I offered a small bottle and she drank it all and cried when it finished. Back to bed and she cried again until I offered another small bottle - she fell asleep on it and went back to bed! I turned on the aircon after that and I know she would have slept a bit longer too.... Sigh....

I don't know what I'm doing with A or E. She's having table food only now but an hour after when I offer a bottle she only wants maybe 100ml at most. She drank more today because she was tired and I offered it 2 hours after solids but isn't that too close to bed and affect her next solids and milk feeds? 

WU: toddler woke her up before 6. Awake at 6.30 when I woke.
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.30. Solids.
A: had to go shopping so missed her bottle E and then had to feed super close to S.
E: 9.30. Had to feed in her room as she wouldn't drink. was falling asleep on bottle
S: 9.50; 9.55-11.51. She was unsettled after the first 30-45 minutes but fell back to sleep.

[becj86]

It does seem like the bottle is involved somehow in those early morning wakings. It sounds like maybe a bit of a prop or throat bothering her if she's crying for more and falling asleep on it.

That's interesting that she's doing a 2hr nap off about 4hr A time! That's a lot but that's what we thought initially re: high A times :-/ How was she while you were shopping?

[labrodyk]

What should I do if it is such a prop? Not give it? Attempt resettling forever?

She was okay whilst shopping but after the 2hr nap she was so fussy. Crying a lot - not happy on the floor, not happy in my arms so put her down after 2hr 20min, asleep at 2.5hr A. She did a 1hr 20 minute nap which is interesting, I thought I would have got a short nap...

She's not drinking a lot - if anything - she only had some chicken and avocado pieces for lunch yet struggled to drink 60ml. Could this all be teething? She seems uncomfortable and unhappy...

E: 12.15. Solids
A:
E: 1.30. Bottle
S: 2.11; 2.20-3.40
^^cried
E: 4.30. Solids
A:
E: 5.50. Bottle
BT: 6.11; 6.33 after rolling onto tummy and crying!
NW: 7.20! Crying.
NW: 10.30. Crying
NW: 11.30. Crying, won't stop!

So whilst my 3.5yo put himself to bed at 6 because he was sick of waiting for me to finish with Audrey I'm still trying to get her to sleep!!  I put her down at 6.11, she was rubbing her eyes in the bath, falling asleep on her bottle and yet went into to cot awake only to start crying less than 5 minutes later. She rolls onto her stomach and just keeps crying but won't/can't roll back!

I'm sitting here feeling so upset I just don't know what to do. I don't want to be doing this anymore - shouldn't she be going down reasonably well by now and sleeping properly? Every day is so bloody different I feel sick trying to work each A out, the crying and the settling which is by far the worst part of it. sick of not drinking her bottles properly from pure distraction and/or lack of hunger yet waking through the night. I'm SOOOOO tired I can't even think or type properly...

[becj86]

Sweetie, I really do think there is something else at play here. I know you've taken her to the doctor but she is plainly not completely fine. TBH, even babies who are 'bad sleepers' by nature we would usually have figured out by now. I might ask some of the other mods if they can have a read and see if there's anything else to add.

I take it she's gaining weight fine and meeting milestones - that'd be what the doctor is looking at, I think. Can you perhaps video her when she's upset so you've got something to show them?

I guess it could be teething - teething can cause reflux to flare too though. She's sleeping reasonable length naps, its hard to say it would definitely be that but the insistence on more milk kind of points to acid a bit as well - that's not actually been happening that long or happening at every WU so its hard to say its a prop but its a possibility.

[labrodyk]

If anyone else can have a look/think I'd be most grateful....

The reason I don't think it's reflux is that this night time behaviour is relatively new - she slept through each night for a week and previously it was just one wake after midnight for a bottle. In tr day, the fussy behaviour and crying so much at nap times and bedtimes is new too! She doesn't like being put down lately or if I leave the room.

Could it be:

1) Separation anxiety?

2) cold? Her room hovers around 20 degrees, plus or minus a few degrees. I dress her in a singlet suit, bonds zippy and a 2.5 tog sleep bag. She tends to kick blankets off and does want to try and roll to her tummy...should I just tuck her in tight?

3) hungry? I did stop the purée and doing only table food - more of a BLW approach. Given her milk intake is so low, is she genuinely hungry. Somehow I doubt this as surely she would smash her bottles of her meals aren't fulfilling enough?!

4) teething? I can see how this might play a part, she is chewing her fingers when she tries to settle and resettle through the night?....

5) developmental? She's trying to crawl properly (rather than commando style dragging herself)? We just finished a WW leap but things are worse.


So to top off a crap night she woke again at 5.30, crying and fussing. Woke my 3yo too. I tried to resettle, laying my hands on her after placing her on her side and she does fall quiet but easily starts again when I leave the room. By 6.30 we started our day - offered a bottle - no interest and had to push her to have 100ml. Gave her some frozen banana and a pear for breakfast. Didn't fall asleep until close to 9.30 in the car on the way home from kindy drop off (30 minute drive away). I've been sitting in the driveway and she has managed to sleep longer than ever with almost an hour sleep. Woke at 40 minutes but shut her eyes again...
I neeed to leave to pick up Harry by 2.30/2.45 so this will
Be a fun day. Any ideas on how to play it now??

Is waking after 40ish minutes and going back to sleep relatively quickly within a few minutes something to concern myself over re A time? I put Audrey down at 2hr40 A (1.10pm, asleep 1.15 after a little cry) for the second nap and she had a little chat at 2.00pm had a chat but fell back to sleep. I'll have to wake her by 2.45 if she's still asleep to have any chance of getting to kindy in time for pick up. Does that mean she needs another nap or push to 3hr15 for 6pm bed?


BT of 5.55pm and she screamed when I put her down then whinged and cried consistently for 20 minutes until 6.15. I put a blanket on her again but have a feeling she'll wake when she realizes she can't roll over...

[Scottishmummy]

Just popping in to have a look....she's really giving you a hard time, isn't she?  I have a 7mo and a 3yo too and that's hard, especially the days when my 7mo DD doesn't sleep well and wakes her older brother too...everyone ends up tired and grumpy!!

I have only read this page but had a summary from bec too....

I doubt she's cold in what you describe- do her hands or feet feel cold in the night?

Could be some hunger. I note it was just fruit for breakfast- are you doing any cereals for brekkie?
Are you offering plenty of high fat and some protein foods thought the day too?

Could be teething - any other signs? Could be developmental- learning to crawl threw my DS' sleep off badly. Could be some SA.

Does she self settle for naps and night sleep? Just wondering if it's an independant sleep vs AP  thing? Does she self settle after night wakings or do you need to feed or otherwise help her back to sleep? Even if a baby SS at BT, if they don't SS at NWs, it can cause them to wake again after a short time unable to settle themselves.

Nap-wise..lI'm wondering if she could be UT?? (Sorry know that you've been round and round the houses with this)... But it looks like she's pushing for a longer first A time and fighting BT & with the EW.  I'm wondering if she needs a 3hr30 first A time (if you count time in bed as half A time, that's when she's falling asleep, although total first A is 4hrs). 

This is a bit subjective but with my 7mo I've started doing a set first nap just to give us an anchor and more predictability for the day.  Do you think setting first nap at 10 would work? Keeping that first nap the same (roughly) might then help to work out the rest of the day? 

It looks like she needs at least 3hrs Atime between first and second nap...and possibly more than 3hrs from end of 2nd nap to bedtime.

ETA: funny, just noticed your DD's name on your ticker...that's my DD's middle name!

[labrodyk]

Morning!! Thank you so much for helping. I feel physically sick and extremely tired, a hard time is an understatement. I'll try and answer your questions...

Cold - yes, her hands are cold when I go to her but her chest is warm.

Hunger - yes, normally I feed her cereal but we were very rushed getting to kindy (another issue in itself). She has lots of iron and protein food but it's only finger foods - should I offer more of a lumpy mash purée as well?

Teething - other than being irritable and chewing everything, drooling and her bottom canine/eye teeth gums are quite red...same as the top 2.

Developmental - she's trying so hard but not coordinated or have enough strength in her arms.

She does SS for naps and bedtime (despite the crying). I feed quite close to bedtime but she's always put down awake. Most of her night wakings she is becoming hysterical so I have been assisting her back to sleep by placing my hands on her firmly. This sometimes works other times she just cries louder or seems asleep only for her to wake 5 minutes after I get back into bed.... I am only feeding the first night waking after midnight but I know she can go all night without as she had been previously (although not consistently). If I leave her at night she doesn't usually resettle she just becomes hysterical crying and crying until I intervene. But she never used to be like this which is so upsetting to me.

God knows with A times. I'd love to be consistent but she's so unhappy when I try and push them. I also have to do an hour round trip at both naptimes for Harry's preschool on Thirsdays and Fridays so she's getting a poo*ty car nap for the first S and then has to be woken for the second S which means BT would need to be at 5 or she needs a CN.

Last night we only had one night waking - I gave her some purée for dinner and also put her down with a blanket over her tight. She woke at 1.00 and she tried to SS for 20 minutes before I fed her and gave her some ibuprofen. She drank almost all the bottle but when I put her back to bed she cried hard for 5 minutes before falling back to sleep. Then this morning, she woke at 6.15 but in the rush of preschool drop off she had a bowl of cereal at 7am and cried the whole way there and back in the car - falling asleep at 8.45 just as we pulled into preschool and again 5 minutes from home but slept 30 minutes. I offered her a bottle straight away and she was so distracted and disinterested.

BT: 5.55; 6.15 asleep but cried.
NW: 1.05-1.25 crying
NF: 1.25-1.40
S: 1.45-6.15

OOB: 6.30
E: 7.00
A:
S: 9.20-9.50 (car)
E: 10.00. Bottle - drank less than 1/2
A:
E: 11.00. Solids.
A:
S: 12.21; 12.26-12.32-1.20
^^ crying to sleep. Whinged, cried, and moaned constantly after waking. Got her up at 1.50 to go to kindy...
E: 3.00. Gave her a bottle to feed herself in the car - bit of a disaster as she can't feed herself very well.
A:
S: 4.10; cried until 4.30 and slept 30 minutes. What do I do for BT?

Eta: she was showing all her tired signs from 6pm but we got to 7pm. Into cot at 7.10 but again she just screams the second we lay her down in it and she cried for a good ten minutes. But that's less amount of time spent crying off a much shorter A! No wonder I'm confused   she never used to be like this. Hubby would place her in the cot and she would chat, or babble or lay quietly, and go to sleep!

[labrodyk]

And yet she woke and cried out at 40 minutes

[Scottishmummy]

Oh gosh, the crying sounds really distressing & not taking much milk is. Also confusing. I'm sorry, don't know what else to suggest. As Bec says, if she was previously never like this, would a trip to dr or HV be useful just to rule any medical/pain issues?

[labrodyk]

It is dostressing, and I can't leave her to cry for long - it breaks my heart and our trust

So oddly last night I added blankets and put a heater on in her room. Whilst she woke during the first 20 minutes, she do dn't call out until at least 1/2am and she did that again at several times between 5 and when she woke at 6.50am. BUT she self settled like she used to! Feeling much better for just a few extra hours of sleep.

So, the crying going down to bed every sleep is that OT? I was actively keeping her awake this morning but it was a bit difficult to say the least... When we enter her room she starts crying. I put her down at 10.00 so 3hrs10 and she was asleep at 10.15 but not without the scream fest before hand....she woke at 11.35 so only 1hr 20 minute nap. What does that mean?

Terrible second nap was put down at 3hr15m A and whinged and lay awake for at least 15 minutes but only slept an hour. I'll have to pull bedtime back to 2.5hr A for 7pm

And yet with a shorter A she didn't cry hysterically and hasn't cried out! Do you really think I should push through with the 3+ hr A times during the day? She shows all her tired signs constantly...

NW: 3.10am; cried out loudly and then whinging and couldn't get back to sleep!
NF: 3.40am. Should we have fed her?