Predictable Unpredictability - Please help us!

[labrodyk]

Ok, so I can try a little later A time. Our night was pretty average last night and I'm not sure how to treat her night wakings - should I be feeding at all of them?! Could she be waking out of habit now? Her wakes are all over the place and at completely random times all night.

BT: 7.00, asleep 7.30
NW: just before midnight. Tried to resettle for some time as she was grizzliness and not really crying
NF: 12.30am
NW: 4.30am but she went back to sleep
NW: 6.00am grizzliness again.
NF: went to get her up at 6.25 to start the day but she fell asleep on the bottle.

WU: 7.30, I woke her.

Everything seems all over the place. Is this the 4 month sleep regression and should the nights be so random?

[becj86]

NW: just before midnight. Tried to resettle for some time as she was grizzliness and not really cryingNF: 12.30am

See, maybe not hungry enough to push you to feed her, but you'd not have had to get back up again at 12:30 for a feed if you'd just fed here. I think its reasonable to say if she's been >4-5hr since the last feed, she's likely genuinely hungry and you might as well feed.

Could she be waking out of habit now? Her wakes are all over the place and at completely random times all night.

You've answered your own question here - if the wakes are random (not the same time every night and not the same amount of time after BT, then they're almost certainly hunger, not habit.

I'd probably just have fed the first time she woke and again at 4/4:30. She's really not sleeping badly at all and frankly, you'd probably have had 3 less NWs if you'd just fed when she first woke. Better for both of you.

[labrodyk]

Ok. You're right. I don't know why I worry about it and just feed her.

She's short napped this morning after 2hr A from the 7.30 wake up. She's so grizzly, showing tired signs and looks genuinely tired before naps though so I'm finding it hard.

[becj86]

If she's still grizzly after changing location/activity, that's generally a signal that its nap time - I presume you're doing that already to try to keep her up :-/ I think the tricky thing here will be if she starts short napping for developmental reasons around 4 months as her sleep cycle become more pronounced. Keep in mind also that she's likely starting to get used to the A time now and possibly building the habit of getting ready for sleep then. Is that around the same time of day regardless of A time? I guess I'm wondering if she's a candidate for set naps...

She's probably also that bit more tired today after the extra wakings over night.

[labrodyk]

Yes, I change activity to see how she goes and generally she's then still grizzly or awake. She's been up since 10.20 (11.30 now) and she a getting upset after a change of scenery so will attempt a nap. So hard to know with the 4 month stuff going on. Could set naps work?!

[becj86]

I think they might. Lets see how her days are over the next week and see what might suit? Want to just keep them all together then post them on Sunday/Monday so we can look at them all together?

[labrodyk]

Absolutely! Let me keep a log and I'll get back to you.

Would you mind helping me with this afternoon? Such a mess of a day today I'm so unsure of everything. What would you aim for with a catnap and bedtime/asleep by?

OOB: 7.30 after E at 6.20.
* 9.35; 9.40-10.20. Lay quietly. OOB 10.30
* 12.35; 12.40-1.08. Cried out then laying quietly.
* RS herself 1.20-2.00. Crying
* Went to get bottle and she was back asleep 2.15. Cried in her sleep intermittently (I put her on her side at on point) until 3pm when I got her up.

She's quite cranky and not herself which I think may be accumulated OT but also teething + 4mo nonsense....

[becj86]

CN 5:30,
Bed 8ish

Otherwise BT 6 (expect OT)

[labrodyk]

Hello Bec!! How are things with you? Feels like ages since we spoke but I've been diligent with getting our routine better. We've had hits and misses (a lot of misses). We hit 4 months yesterday and have quite a few things going on;

1) 4 month sleep regression
2) 4th WW leap
3) teething bottom tooth (keeps going up and down but hasn't cut)
4) rolling from back to tummy for 2 days (not in bed, just during A time so far)


Our greatest success is when we stick to 2hrs A. We had a good nap after 2hr15 the other day but was a total anomaly. Yesterday she went down in the morning at 2hrs completely happy, no crying and drifted off in 5 minutes, the same went for bedtime the night before. I'm trying to get all sleeps like that but for most of them she SCREAMS and then either has a good nap, 40min or 30 min nap.
For bedtime I'm also finding that following a catnap about 1hr30/40 is a good A and she'll drift off to sleep not having fallen asleep on the bottle (and stay asleep) but if she's had a big nap then 2hrs as usual would be better before BT. Our day and night lengths are all over the place too because BT isn't consistent - it's so hard for us to get that because she's so tired.

We're getting several types of days
1) complete write-offs
2) decent morning + rubbish 2nd and 3rd
3) rubbish morning and 2nd/3rd nap then crashes
4) 2 decent naps but then OT for bed as can't get CN right

I've been waking by 7.30 but the day is getting too late so I've woken at 7.00 this morning

The other big issue we're having is night feeds. They are totally all over the place (gone back to at least 2) and I'm feeding at all of them. But our day feeds are a complete mess now because she refuses to drink the morning bottle. I can try for hours and she doesn't want it and I end up forcing SOMETHING but she usually wakes early from first nap. Her bottles are still only at 120ml and she doesn't always drink that but she's big/heavy and putting on weight. She seems to enjoy solids but we're just playing around when we have time and I'm not wanting to substitute milk for food of course. What do you suggest I do here?

Should I be waking her from naps and if so, when? 2hrs from the time she goes into bed or the time she falls asleep? I find she is waking at 2hrs if she isn't super OT and doing a crash nap but that could be at the 2hr20m mark from putting her down. Does it matter.

Here is a week of EASY's if you don't mind taking a look. We're also staying at my parents house from Wed night to Friday so there was an early PD for morning nap by my mum as I did preschool drop off for DS which set us up for a shocking day and a crash nap and too early of a BT.


Monday 1-Feb
4.30 woke but settled NW
6.10-6.20 NF
7.30 - WU
* Nap1: 9.35; 9.40-10.20. Lay quietly. OOB 10.30
*  Nap2: 12.35; 12.40-1.08. Cried out then laying quietly.
* RS herself 1.20-2.00. Crying
* Went to get bottle and she was back asleep 2.15. Cried in her sleep intermittently (I put her on her side at on point) until 3pm when I got her up
* Nap 3: 5.00pm, asleep 5.10 woke her at 5.30pm.
* BT 7.00; asleep 7.15/20

Tuesday 2-Feb
NF: 4.30
WU: 7.20
OOB: 7.30
Nap1: 9.30; 9.40-10.50, RS 11.00-11.45
Nap2: 1.55; 2.00-2.28. RS 2.38-3.38
Nap3: 5.35. Not asleep by 5.55  OOB.
Bath, bed and bottle
BT: 6.27; 6.35 (didn't really self settle here, almost asleep on the bottle/as i put her in bed).

NW: 9.35. Attempted resettle until 10.20...
E: 10.20
^^ took ages to fall asleep laying awake and grizzling. I fell asleep so not sure when she dropped off again...

Wednesday 3-Feb
NF: 5.00am
WU: 7.30 (woke her)
Nap1: 9.33, 9.40-10.14
 Nap2: 1.30-1.50 (in the car from 1.00pm. Really thought she'd sleep longer but pretty sure she was very OT).
E: 3.00
Nap3: 3.30; 3.40 - 4.20
BT; 6.20; 7.00-12:48
* rocking, shushing, settling whilst running between her and DS. NIGHTMARE.
NF: 12.48
S: 1.05 - 5.50

Thursday 4-Feb
NF: 5.50
S: 6.05
^^ should I have just started the day?!

WU: 7.10
Nap1: 8.50; 9.10-9.44
* Grizzling, crying, cranky before morning.
Nap2: 11.20; 11.28-12.05
* cranky crying and upset, difficulty settling
* Not happy being awake; crying and screaming. Won't resettle.
Nap3: 1.35-2.30.
Rs. 2.50-5.20
BT: 6.55; 7.40-10.25

NF: 10.35

Friday 5-Feb
NF: 3.15am
WU: 6.00, resettled after 15/20 mins awake until 7.00
Nap1: 9.16, 9.25-11.30
Nap2: 1.45, 1.50-2.15
**postman and dog barking - not sure if this affected it or wake time. Eye rubbing at 1.5 A. 
Nap3: 3.40-3.47 (car nap, just fell asleep then woke when I stopped at lights. Wouldn't go back to sleep and by then was hungry and OT but I couldn't stop on the freeway)
E: 4.50. Drank 3/4
Nap4: 5.00; hadn't fallen asleep by 5.30
A: bath and pj's
E: remainder of bottle
BT: 6.15; 6.20-10.30
NF: 10.30

Saturday 6-Feb
NF: 3.30
WU: 7.25. Laying quietly.
OOB: 7.30
E: absolutely impossible to get a morning feed in. Tried for up to 2 hrs and it really messes up our E for the remainder of the day.
Nap1: 9.45;  9.57-10.30
Tried to RS herself ~10.45. I patted until 10.55 no luck.
E: 11.30
E: 12.30 offered some solids which she inhaled (?!)
Nap2: 1.00; 1.10-1.45.
RS herself slept 2.00-3.34
Nap3: 5.00; 5.15-5.45
BT: 7.35, asleep by 8.05. Quietly drifted off no crying. Woke at 8.45 but she lay quietly for 5 minutes and drifted back to sleep. Wouldn't have known without the video monitor.
NF: 12.30

Sunday 7-Feb
NF: 5.00 (didn't drink a huge amount here and her cry didn't sound as hungry as the precious wake).
WU: 7.30
E: 7.30-8.30
Nap1: 9.30; 9.35-11.30
Brilliant settling. Didn't cry at all during wind down or when I placed in bed. Drifted off quietly and happy.
Nap2: 1.30; 1.40-2.57
Cried as soon as we entered her room and was very upset but visibly tired. In fact, she was cranky from 1.5 A...
Nap3: tried catnap from 5.15-6.00 with no luck.
BT: 6.45; protesting until 6.55. Patted until asleep at 7.00. Woke at 7.30.
Tried to resettle from 7.30-8.40!
E: 8.40
S: 9.00pm

Monday 8-Feb
NF: 2.45
NF: 5.30
WU: 7.07 (woken)

[becj86]

Well, you have hit 4mo regression with a bang! I never noticed it with DS because his sleep was so ordinary at 4mo anyway

With that late NF, you could try reducing the size of that - she might then be more receptive to the first day bottle. It looks like you're dealing maybe with the 4mo GS which can be a doozy but maybe its just getting you a bit out of sync

Should I be waking her from naps and if so, when? 2hrs from the time she goes into bed or the time she falls asleep? I find she is waking at 2hrs if she isn't super OT and doing a crash nap but that could be at the 2hr20m mark from putting her down. Does it matter.

General rule is to cap at 2hr or thereabouts (of actual sleep). I don't think it matters all that much - you might find it does but it doesn't look like it from the days you've posted here.

Nap1: 9.30; 9.40-10.50, RS 11.00-11.45

This 1:10 nap is an UT nap of >1hr, I'd not have bothered with resettling.

What I'm noticing is that your first A time and nap length seems dependent on your overall night length - if its a shorter night (asleep around 8pm), she takes a good nap on 2hr first A time but when night is longer (BT 7 or before & WU 7 or later), she is taking UT naps on 2hr A time and better naps on 2:15.

I guess the other variable is stimulation level - very hard to keep uniform, of course :-/ I don't really know what to suggest there. Do you see any patterns/correlations there?

[labrodyk]

Yep! Things are totally all over the place if I'm honest....she's not actually feeding any more than usual (still a major struggle).

I really can't get this catnap and bedtime right and it's driving me mental! Today was the below;

WU: 7.07 (woken)
Nap1: 9.00; 9.05-?. OOB 10.40
Nap2: 12.40; 12.45-2.45, fell back asleep and dozed until 3.00
^ quietly fell asleep
Nap3: 5.00; protested. Slept 5.15-5.45
BT: 7.15; protested briefly then lay awake until 7.45 but has just stirred and started crying!

I'm so annoyed, I can never get this right and with no consistency it's horrible.

[labrodyk]

So she fell asleep at 8pm and had two wakings 12.30am and 5.30am. We had vaccinations this morning so I let her sleep and she went through to after 8am. I'll be winging it today...

[becj86]

That's a pretty normal night for this age, it truly is. I know its not what you experienced with DS but it is normal.

I might see if I can get some input re: bottle feeding from someone as I'm nigh on clueless in that respect.

That day looks pretty good to me. 2 long naps and a catnap, 13hr day. I wonder if her body clock is just that bit later than most babies and she's more of an 8pm BT/7am WU kid.

[labrodyk]

Yes I totally respect that's normal and I'm totally okay with that!

That crappy llittle nap she protests so much but with EBT often as early as 6 for DS it's not feasible to have her in the pram or the car. I tried the ergo but it was a total bust. Should she be so upset going down for this, regardless whether it follows a 2hr or 20min nap! We've been trying for after 2h or later A.
After this difficult catnap, what time should I aim for her to be put down at night?  Should I shoot for a later BT - I guess that's what I'm struggling with in the PM. What A time to bed - have her in Bed that is, not just asleep time.

[becj86]

That CN is a pest. Its unavoidable, really if you want to make it to BT but its tricky and that's the most variable bit of the day at this age (between children, not just with the same child on different days).

What's happening around that time of day? Is there any day she doesn't get so upset?

She's quite variable with how she goes at BT too, I'll have a look when I'm not on my phone and see if I can see any pattern.