Help me banish EW for good! (or at least a few nights :) x)

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hey my dd who is 17 months has been battling ew for about a year now .  Generally wake up is 5-5.30.  We were trying all combinations before Christmas but just don't seem to find something that works.  Monitering her she generally will only do 10 hours at night which makes it difficult to get a decent BT when she wakes so early.  She seems to do better on a shorter A time after nap.

We have recently come back from holiday, where she slept amazing.  We were getting around 3 hours nap (40min-1 hr am, 2hrs-2.30 pm) BT, 4-4.5 hours after nap, which was falling around 9pm (which is fine on holiday). She would then sleep 10 hours at night, again this was fine.  We have had just over a week of good sleeping now we are back, a huge part due to jetlag, with some cracking 14 hours nights .  Then its started to unravel, naps are back to being short, and EW have started. 

Whilst she has been waking later we have managed to do one nap which has been around 1hr 30 and BT around 7.30 which was fine, we then started waking at 6am, which was still ok, this morning was 4.30!!!!!

Im not really sure where to go from here, the routine we had on holiday was great but we have school runs that get in the way now we are back.  Just for the record, yesterday she had a 15 mins nap in car on way back from music class then had a 1hr 20 mins nap in the pm, but I had to wake her as doing school run , BT was 7.30 and she was def ready.

I know with holiday things may take a bit to settle down but need a plan xxx

Thank you, I have got used to my lie ins x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

So what does the regular routine look like at home (ie wake up, naptimes etc)? I would for sure want to.give one nap days a try but if your lo has been ew for a year I kind of wonder if that is just their body clock setting?

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi,before we went away at Christmas we were trying to stick to one napbut things still didn't improve.  This is the pattern that emerges.
We tend to get 2 good days of night sleep/later wake ups and naps then WU gets earlier, nap shorter, then the next day we get a super early WU like 4.30, so we have to do a capped morning nap to get her through to her next nap.  This has been going on for a while, as I mentioned holiday was perfect due to having the time to let her sleep whenever she wants but back home school runs etc get in the way.  She definitely does better with a shorter A time in the pm, but has very rarely sleeps more than 10 hours at night regardless so my problem is getting to a 7.30-8pm BT without her getting OT.  EW have been going on for so long, 6am feels like a lie in!

Any help would be fab, sick off early mornings 

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Last two mornings 4.30starts  , anyone out there with some help.

[Katet]

I think you are kind of going to get the early WU if you keep trying to get her through the day with 2 naps. I know my DS1 didn't drop to 1 nap until really late & he was a HSN toddler, so he'd sleep 7.30- 6 at night (fit around my work) & do a cat nap in the car & a bigger nap at day care so it was really hard to get him to 1 nap, BUT once I did get him to 1 nap after I went on Mat leave for DS2 he started to sleep longer in the morning.

I'm guessing with the holiday she was more 'stimulated' & so more tired, where as at home there is a bit less going on so not as tired
So even if she wakes at 4.30, you've really got to  try & get her to around 11/12am for one nap  to get her to not play the catch up nap earlier in the day that means she steals from her night sleep because she's never quite as tired when it gets to sleep times.
I found with both my boys that at the transitional time between naps that if we had 2 naps the total sleep would be about 1 hour less than if it was night sleep & 1 nap, so it's really about riding out a few days of getting her to last that longer morning period, so she doesn't steal from night sleep for a morning catnap.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi thanks, for getting back to me.  I hear what ur saying about the 2 naps, she only ends up doing 2 naps if she falls asleep in the car, its only ever around 10-15 mins, even then it doesn't help.  We managed to stick to 1 nap for around 2-3weeks before holidays and we ended up in such an OT cycle. 

What time would you offer naps?  We went through the same thing with my other daughter, she would never do more than 10 hours at night, so early BT were always a no no. 

Thanks again x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

We are now doing 9.5 hours at night

[Katet]

Sounds like the day sleeps are really stealing from the night time, so it's really a case of trying to work out how long you can get her to last before a single nap & then until bedtime

I know with my DS2 (low sleep needs) he really struggled because he was only able to do average A times, but was really low in his sleep needs & so a 23 hour day would have been ideal. I found that once or twice a week he pulled a 14hour night, but mostly he was 10 hours until he dropped to 9 & now at 10yo he sleeps around the same as DH & I do & less than his 12yo brother.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well we managed a longer night llast night, so wake up was at 6.15  , she had rubbish naps yesterday and 9.5 hours nights for a few nights so not sure if its catch up sleep.  Anyway I am going to give the 1 nap a go again, we got to 11.45 but she only slept 1hr 10 mins.  She has been pretty sleepy the past hour so we shall see what tonight brings.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Feel like im losing the will 

Woke at 4am  managed to get her back to sleep at 5.45 she slept until 7.30am

Nap 12.3, she slept for 1hr 30mins and bedtime was 7.30pm

WU 6am, nap fell around 12pm as she was super sleepy, she only slept for 1hr.

Bedtime was 7pm and up at 5am!!!!!!

Anyone have any ideas , so fed up

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

So she has been an early waker since she was very small? Have her night always been on the shorter side? Have you ever tried a super early bedtime? Even if you got sleep from 6pm to 5 am and then did that for a couple of weeks and then slowly slowly shifted it later.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi, up till 7 months she slept forever!!!! everyone used to laugh she was always asleep.  My other daughter never slept, so thought I had won the lottery with Eva .  It sort of just happened overnight, she cat napped through day more than had big chunks of sleep, but always did 12+ hours at night. She used to sleep 6.30 till 8am .

Yesterday we got an even shorter nap, 50 mins!!!! we got 5.15 wake up though. I do think she is on the lower scale of sleep but still think she needs more than she is having, its barely 11 hours in total, which seems too short.

Like I mentioned on holiday she gets more sleep, and I know she is probably a little more active however I think it is also due to she never gets OT.  She does still however tend to do 10hrs which I think is all she needs at night, but needs a little  more in day to get bedtime pushed out more.

I bought bedtime forward to last 2 nights to 7pm instead of 7.30 as she has literally been falling asleep.  If you go out and about she will fall asleep in car, she looks tired she has black bags under her eyes at least they match mine 

Thanks for taking the time to respond, been feeling a little lost this past week x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi again, yes we have done early BT we still get 10 hours, so 4-4.30 starts instead x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well still early mornings and short naps .  Yesterday she came down with a sickness bug , so we got a slightly longer nap but still only 1hr 20.  Bedtime fell as normal but she woke around 8pm and was up for a few hours as she kept being sick .  She finally fell asleep but still woke at 5.15am .  I am just going to let her sleep today when she wants it.

x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Aww poor girl! Fx she feels well soon! 

Hmm if she only ever does 10 hr nights then we.need to.work out how to tweak that nap.  I wonder if wake to sleep might work? To kind of rouse her and send her into another sleep cycle?

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well we got 2 naps yesterday, one for around 40 mins and another around 1hr 20.  I kept bedtime the same and she woke yet again at 5.10, which was 9.5 hours sleep , so although I think it would be rare for her to do more than 10 I think she has got into a habit of waking at 5am.  ANyway I bought her in my bed and although it took me an hour to get her back to sleep she slept until 7.45 :)x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Disaster!!!!!

She fell asleep on way back from church yesterday so only had 10 mins in car, couldn't get her back down til 3pm and then I struggled, only had 45 mins and woke at 4.30 this morning!!!!!

I did let her cry a little this morning and didn't get her out of cot,just kept going back to check she was ok, she finally gave in after some super screaming and waking everyone else up after 1hr 30 mins,  She then slept arounf another hour. Have one miserable child on my hands today 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

After that good two nap day I might have tried a bit later bedtime, just to shift the day a bit later. Darn car naps! That is too bad..what time did bedtime end up being that day?

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hey, bedtime that day was 7.30pm, I am trying my hardest to keep naps around 12pm-12.30 and bedtime 7.30pm..  As she is still only doing short naps, I didn't want to push BT out too late.  She is only doing 9.5 hours or less at night so I think we are def in OT territory. 

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Yesterday we ended up with 1hr 20 mins nap again.  I know I am trying to stick to set times, but do you think I should try for a 7pm bedtime for a couple of nights as we are still getting 9.5 hours at night, wake up still at 5am this morning x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well we had an hour and half nap yesterday from 12pmt to 1.30pm. I bought bedtime forward to 7pm, she did stir at 5am but I put her dummy back in and she slept til 5.40am!!!! YAY!!!! What would you do today? stick with same timings for a few days or push day out?

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Barely made 50 mins nap today , the dog barked so not sure if she woke her because of that.  Don't think it was under tiredness as she was nodding off at around 11am.  Not sure what to do with BT?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Would lo have done a catnap at all? Sorry have been working tons of days in row due to coworkers sick kids - and now mine are down for the count!

Have you ever used white noise at all? We use it to sort of blur out household sounds!

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi, she probably would have done a cat nap, I was really unsure what to do for best, so went with an earlier night of 6.30pm.  She didn't fall asleep until 6.45, she woke at 3.30!!!!! She did fall back to sleep around 4.15-4.30 til 6.20, she  really wanted a cuddle.  Not sure if canines are coming through on top of everything else , she had super rosy cheeks yesterday.

The dog waking her was unfortunate yesterday, my dad was sitting whilst I ran some errands and he wouldn't have thought about the dog, I always make sure all the doors are shut then she cant hear her bbark.

We shall see what today brings, we have music and dance class this morning, so I know she will drop off in the car .

[MayaandEvasmommy]

As predicted she fell asleep in car but as it was at 11.30 I was in a dilemma as to wake her and try again at 12.30 or keep her asleep.  Anyway I couldn't wake her she was fast, but then she only slept 40 mins .  So now unsure if to give another nap or go with a early night again? AAAHHHHHH.  I have to do school run so would need to be after 3.30pm, she wont drop to sleep in car there.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I would try for another nap...40 min is pretty low for one nap and even with an ebt you might get ot wakings.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

How long would you do ? and then what time would you do BT? x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well couldn't get her down for a cat nap , so BT was 6.30.  She fell asleep around 6.40pm and was up at 4.50am!!!!!! She looks exhausted with black eyes , have no idea how to fix it, we seem to be getting less and less now naps are so short too.  Fx she catches up today x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Darn! So hard when they are so tired but just don't sleep.  Fx for today...I would pull out all the ap stops to get some sleep if I were you.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Managed to drag nap out til 11.45 and she slept for 1hr 30 mins.  I left bedtime at 7pm and although I heard her stir at 4am she went back to sleep until 6am. 

kept the same routine yesterday but nap was at 12pm and again I got 1hr 30 mins, bedtime at 7pm again and up at 5am!!!!!!

I cant believe I used to moan at 5.30 starts, how I would love those days back .

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Sounds like she is just an early bird! I wonder if the shorter nights will stay until she drops her nap totally?

[MayaandEvasmommy]

NO!!!!!  , don't say that x

We were up at 4.45 this morning after a short nap of an hour yesterday.   I took her into bed with me and although she took an hour to go of I managed to get her to sleep for another 40 mins. She still seems so tired though, she lies around quiet a lot of the day so I am sure she needs more sleep although I do think 10 hour nights are the norm with her and a short nap means we drop down to 9.9.5 .  Even on holiday she was only doing 10 hours but BT was around 9pm but she was taking 3 hours in the day too which could give us that late BT.

If I could move BT out it could help but she seems to be in a habit of waking at that time and she is so knackered by bt is seems cruel to keep her up, she is exhausted.

Im torn between going for an super early bt in the hope we can get more than 10 hours and going cold turkey and stretching BT out.  Last week we did a BT of 6.30 and she woke at 5am so still got an extra 30 mins out of her.  Then I go back to sticking with set times we have for a little longer as we have only been doing this routine rigidly for a week  . SO confused x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

We managed to get to 12pm for nap although she nearly fell asleep in car on way to dance class and on on way back but I managed to distract her.  She napped for 1hr 30 mins, and I pushed BT out until 7.15pm and she slept until 5.15am.  So am going to roll with this and see if we can gradually push out.  Would you push nap out too or leave where it is atm?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I think I would move the nap the same amount you push everything else but once you get to a decent time for the morning wake then I would move more to set nap and bed time as it is a lot simpler than judging A times in a toddler.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi, nap fell a little later yesterday anyway due to mother in law having her, so nap fell at 12.45 and she slept for 2hours .I was unsure what to do about BT, she was tired around 7.7.30 but I dragged her until 8pm and she woke at 4..45!!!!! so 9 hours again and stupid early, I don't think nap made the difference, still think could have put her down earlier and would have woke same time = more sleep x

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Nap was pretty disastrous too, only managed 50 mins, which fell early aswell at 11.45am.  I thought maybe an early night would help so put her to bed at 6.30pm and we were up at 4.30am  .  Looks like 10 hour nights and early mornings are here to stay.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yes it seems like it. (((Hugs))) I am not a morning person so I can understand how crappy that is!

[MayaandEvasmommy]

We got a long nap again today of 2 hours, I am just going to roll with a 7.30pm bedtime and hope we can get to 5.30, that would be better alternative to 4.30 x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Fx that it works!!

[MayaandEvasmommy]

We managed a 2 hour nap yesterday so I made  bedtime 7.30pm, she woke at 3.30!!!!!!! I truly am at my wits end  . she did go back after an hour but still then only had another 40 mins, so we are probably getting nearer to 9hrs at night now.  I know she is on the lower end of sleep needs but think this is too little for her.  She is constantly tired. I just don't know what she needs 

[MayaandEvasmommy]

couldn't keep her awake past 11am today , she had 1hr 30 mins and I did end up putting her down at 7pm, but hubby is doing morning shift so not bothered what time she wakes lol xxx

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hmm she is at the prime time for the 18 month regression...is she getting teeth or having a language leap too? Those can be issues at this age with sleep too. So tough as she won't seem to tack on to her night sleep and I am not sure if trying to squeeze in a catnap when the nap comes early would be a good thing or just result in more ew!!

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well we seem to be pretty consistent with naps  for now, they are generally between 11.30 and 12pm for 1hr 30 mins.  I have been keeping BT at 7pm and still getting 5am waking, last night however I went with 7.30pm Bt and she woke at 4.45am 

So in hindsight, she is better with 7pm bedtime in which she does her 10 hours which I think is her max night sleep, OT results in shorter nights.  If only we could re set that wake time 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I wonder if a gro clock or similar would help with that? I have never used one but I have painstakingly spent ages teaching DD3 how to wake and not scream the house down! I may be shifting her into a room with DD2 who cannot tell time so I may get one to teach them to stay in bed/quiet even if they are awake!

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Hi, I think she may still be a little young for a gro clock, but its def something to keep in mind.  Although we had one with dd and it never worked  .  Anyway yesterday we had a trip to the dentist so she fell asleep in car for around 30 mins from around 9am to 9.30am, put her down for another nap at 1pm and she slept until 3pm. I dragged bt out again until 7.45 and she woke at 5am, however although I did bring her in my bed, she fell back to sleep until 6.15 so I guess that's a result in a way. 

I have been reading another board on here about pushing bt out drastically until ot and in essence resetting wake up time, so I may give this a go, I guess this that is pretty much what we did when we went on holiday.  We are lucky that she very rarely wakes in the night and can handle long A times, I think I have always been scared in the past as always have a little voice telling me to do early nights but I think I have now gathered she really can only do a 10 hour night so early bt are always going to give me an early start.  I definitely think its all about resetting her internal clock, fx

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I think doing that option would be similar to pushing out the day when clocks change or if you need to change time zones if travelling. Sorry no btdt as we don't change our clocks ever. Definitely worth a shot if you think she can handle a long day.

[MayaandEvasmommy]

Well after out last chat we had a bit of a turn around and had a later wake up so I didn't go brutal with the later bedtime and we have had two glorious weeks of 6, 6.30 wake ups .  However it was obviously not going to be long term was it? So after 2 lovely weeks of 6,6.30 wake ups, set naps at 12pm lasting around 1hr 30 and bedtime of 7.30pm,  I think we may be entering 18 month regression territory .  We have had bedtime refusals suddenly on several nights this week and NW for over an hour a few night too 

I am living in hope it is just teething or a little SA, I have noticed the nights she doesn't settle so well concides with the days I work so could be just this fx.