Author Topic: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???  (Read 3157 times)

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Offline jessmum46

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2016, 20:36:32 pm »
My only other thought is maybe super-tired exhausted and crashing at CM (DS does monster naps when totally shattered) then just 'regular' overtired at home and not settling well?  Have you tried say a 30 mins earlier nap just to see?

Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2016, 22:01:15 pm »
Thanks Katherine, tbh I'm not sure what it is/was as she settled really well for me yesterday :o :D Perhaps just SR stuff after all ::) And now definitely some teething disturbances, her poor gums are so lumpy, maybe even all her '12mo' molars now on the move, top two feeling quite close but if they're anything like her incisors they'll be another few weeks ::) Incisor number 5 also bumpy now - yep, you remember she's a late teether! I expect B has all his now, does he? ;)



Offline jessmum46

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2016, 12:18:01 pm »
Nearly! Bottom two "2y" molars both breaking the gums right now (joy!) so just two to go!

Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2016, 23:07:09 pm »
Oh wow, speedy teether! Does that mean you're all going through a rough patch now then? Hope they break through soon :-*



Offline jessmum46

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2016, 07:32:10 am »
We've had a spate of EWs and lots of cry-outs overnight but actually nowhere near as awful as canines (yet!). 

Hope your good settling for nap time continues :D

Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2016, 14:17:31 pm »
Hmm a new thought - I 'm wondering whether the settling depends less on the A time and more on the timing of lunch?? I *think* she settles best when there's the least amount of time between finishing lunch and going down - I think when that is right she can often settle quickly even at a non-ideal A time; when it's too long and she goes from that post-prandial sleepiness into excited activity (which she quickly and easily does if given the chance!) then she just won't settle well whatever the  A time! Is that a crazy thought? Problem is that lunch is so variable, sometimes she's a little eating machine and just wants to go on and on eating, other times she hardly touches it, sometimes she takes ages over it and sometimes rushes through. So if I'm right about this, I'll still have to work out what to do about lunch... I think the CM somehow gets through lunch more quickly than I ever manage, DD won't let me help her at all but perhaps she lets her CM?

Also thinking she may be getting to the point where she can cope with more A time in the morning, I think she's going to be a long morning A, short pm A girl... But the only way to extend morning A is by waking her earlier, what with the school collection to fit in. And that seems less easily reversible if it's the wrong decision! Also I don't quite feel able to do that until she can lengthen her day a bit, as BT is still really tight to get in and I think if we shifted WU earlier but kept the nap the same she'd probably need a slightly earlier BT? Really hoping her overall sleep needs will decrease soon though - that does tend to happen around now, doesn't it??



Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2016, 13:31:37 pm »
Ok I'm really fed up with this now! Rant warning... :P

Poor DD is teething like crazy, waking a lot at night crying but usually settled with teething gel. Really tired all morning, rubbing eyes and yawning, either having a meltdown or on the verge of one, or the opposite - crazy happy. As you know she's struggled to settle for naps at home, especially for me, for weeks now, but taken nice long naps at the CM's, settling quickly most of the time, although just before last week's holiday she apparently took 'a long time' to settle, ie 20mins - at home, this would be amazing, it's more often closer to 1h or even longer, followed by a really unsettled OT nap. So despite the unsettled nights, we decided to take the plunge and get her up 15mins earlier in the morning, to stretch her A time without cutting the nap, which must end by 3pm for school runs. So, up earlier yesterday, but because our CM saw she was so tired in the morning (ie her usual behaviour) she put her down a bit earlier, so she ended up with her previous A time of 5.5h, settled immediately and slept for 2.5h :o :D Wonderfully rested afterwards, happy at BT and settled well after 4h second A, pretty decent night (~12h), except for two or three short teething-pain NWs, settled quickly with teething gel. Great :)

So today... Up earlier again, rubbing eyes and yawning again in the morning but I thought since she'd had a good catch up we could try for 5.75h A time... But of course, almost 1h after pd, she's still babbling away, not upset, just can't switch off at all :( What's the issue ??? I've tried keeping her calm with low-key play time at home; I've tried tiring her out at groups or in the park; I've tried a later lunch to try and capitalise on any sleepiness resulting from lunch and put her down as soon as possible; I've tried an earlier lunch to make sure she's really full and not too tired to eat properly; I've tried singing to her before naps (DH reckons this is the key); I've tried keeping things as quiet as possible; I've tried going back in again to tell her to be quiet and go to sleep; I've tried letting her be. She has her white noise, bunny and sleeping bag, just the same as at her CM. What else can I try ???

I can't let her sleep beyond 3pm so now at 1:30pm I know the very best I can hope for this nap is 1.5h if she settles right now, and this just isn't enough for her, she's so much happier in the afternoon and settles better at BT with 2.5h. I can't let her sleep in, in the morning as we have to get up for work etc. I can't do BT earlier than 6:30pm but realistically on days when I work this ends up more like 6:45 as DH doesn't consistently have her ready for me to feed as soon as I get home around 6:15. So it's really hard to help her to catch up on all this lost sleep, when she won't settle for home naps - I just have to crack this but have really run out of ideas :( Now she's crying, desperately tired so I'll go into her and hope she settles soon! Thanks for reading my rant :-*



Offline Haribo2012

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2016, 08:54:03 am »
Sorry Hun didn't get chance to reply...did she sleep?

Zoe


Offline jessmum46

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2016, 17:00:29 pm »
I'm thinking OT before nap, so struggling to settle. Plus perhaps a touch of A time counting not really being the right thing now?  Are you waking her every morning?  What routine are you aiming for?  For comparison in case it helps, B tends to wake 6-6.30 (natural wake - but I don't ever wake him if he sleeps later), nap at 11.45/12 at nursery or 12/12.15 at home.  Always put down at same time regardless of WU time.  And BT almost always 7pm regardless of nap length.  I'm wondering if perhaps it might help if you set some parameters for nap time (put down time) and bedtime for a while and stick to them, not trying to compensate with earlier naps or earlier bedtimes for a bit to see if she can sort if out herself?  Oh the other thing - are you giving any pain meds besides teething gel?  If teeth are really bothering her then the gels aren't that great and she may be much more tired than usual - hence the bad settling and sleep.

(((Hugs))), I do hope it settles soon x

Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2016, 21:39:27 pm »
Thanks :-*

Yeah, she's usually tired in the mornings at the moment, poor thing really struggling with teething at night :-\ But then she'll switch between periods of looking tired and sleepy and being really lively, problem is of course when the lively comes at nap time ::) But she always seems to be able to crash at the CM, even if she goes down a bit later ???

Yes we kind of have to wake her every morning, since she's in with us - I actually sleep in the living room on days when I work so that I can get myself up and dressed and have breakfast before I absolutely need to get her up in order to bf and get her dressed and out (with cereal bar and squeezy yoghurt whilst getting ready - no time for a sit down breakfast for her!) so I can't let her sleep those days. DH won't sleep in the living room and has to be up by 7am at the latest to get to work, DD sleeps so lightly there's no way she'd sleep through that but in practice she's been waking early recently anyway, usually upset. Then at the weekend even if we wanted a lie in it's tricky to do that with DS as we don't feel it's fair on him to expect him to stay in bed beyond 7am, when that's the time we get him up during the week. Even if we set his gro clock later just in case DD managed to sleep in, she'd likely just wake early anyway and then he'd be pretty annoyed at us :P

Thanks for B's routine, yeah I aim for consistency with actual times rather than A times but with the lack of settling for naps it doesn't really happen :P I think she needs something like this:

WU 6:45
Nap 12:30-3
BT 6:45

For the moment anyway, I suspect she needs around 14.5h - she needed 15h for ages then I think her needs dropped a bit whilst she was still on 2 naps but went back up to more like 15h again as she adjusted to being on one nap. I'm thinking I need to be prepared for her to drop down to more like 14h before long, but as you say with all this teething, she's definitely more tired and will need to catch up.

Actually forgot to say that her settling last week was generally much better, but she didn't take such good naps - some were interrupted by visitors going to the loo next to her room (difficult to ask them not to :P ) and others seemed to be teething pain. Anyway, that week she was up at 7am and the better settling naps were at 12:40pm. So to give her a chance to have the 2.5h naps that I feel she's happiest after, now that school is back on, I thought I'd start getting her up a little earlier.

Yesterday went like this:

WU I didn't even look at the time, knew it was earlier than I wanted :P got up 7am
Nap PD 12:30, messed around until finally fell asleep 1:50 :o had to wake 3pm :( miserable afternoon!
BT 6:30 I couldn't do any earlier :-\
Night - pretty bad!

WU I was in living room and DH didn't look :P but when I got up and turned monitor on at 6:15 she was already awake and chatting ::) Went a bit quiet for periods but never properly back to sleep. Up at 7.
Nap at CM: 12:20-14:45 (straight to sleep, natural wake) Really tired on collection
BT straight down at 6:20 crashed!

So...yeah, I guess not entirely consistent, but she's such an OT wreck right now I don't want to push her any more :P :-[ BT is tricky, depending on the day and how cooperative she is and how disruptive DS is, we might be able to get her down closer to 6pm for a catch up when needed, but on my work days it can't be earlier than 6:45 really and that's why I feel I can't really be consistent when BT on those days is later than ideal...

And yes, I've been giving ibuprofen before every nap and BT, for probably way too long now :-[ but if it's a short NW/nap wake (and they do tend to be), we just use teething gel for that immediate relief - always found that giving her meds wakes her up even more and extends the nw :-\ However I think when the teeth are actually cutting that the gel must really sting at first, before it starts to numb :-\

Oh sorry I'm badly rambling again, so tired and coldy today!



Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2016, 14:08:54 pm »
So... Good news on yesterday's nap :) I decided to try giving her a bit more to eat in the morning to get her bowels moving, which worked and she had a good bm just before lunch so when she started to get sleepy over lunch I was able to take advantage of that and get her down straight afterwards without her getting over excited during nappy change. Bear in mind she was up early (don't know when, perhaps 6ish?) but we didn't get her up until 7am, she was in a real state all morning, meltdowns etc, but she went straight to sleep at 12:30 :D :o So she was able to have 2.5h before I had to wake her for school collection. She was clearly a bit OT as she cried out around 1.5h but straight back to sleep without intervention and could have probably done with being allowed to sleep a bit longer, so I gave her an early night ( just after 6pm) and she had a good one, considering she had cut her lip and probably had some teething pain- just one nw around midnight, settled with teething gel fairly quickly. Woke happy for the first time in ages around 6:30am this morning, got her up 6:45am.

Tried for 12:30 nap again today with same feeding strategy, did her poo before lunch, I thought that since she was better rested but it was still an increase in A time when she was actually up, she should still settle better but without being OT, so that 2.5h should be enough for her to manage a normal BT... But, no! Despite being sleepy in her highchair and when we went into the bedroom,she just started singing in her cot and still hasn't settled now at 2pm :'( DH has gone in a few times which I'm not sure helped, hard to tell, she's clearly way OT now but so wound up I wouldn't be surprised if she fails to sleep at all :( so where does that leave us? That she'll only settle at all if OT for PD?? I'm sorry I'm just so stressed now as these bad naps result in bad nights, yesterday night was so good as she'd both had a good nap and I'd been able to give her an early BT so she could catch up - usually she can't have both a good nap and early BT as she'll only nap well for the CM and can't have  EBT those days. I'm shattered, we have other stuff gong on which means staying up lay discussing stuff with DH, and then broken nights and EWs due to OT from not napping - I'm too tired to know what to do and too stressed to think :(  I just don't cope with sleep deprivation and am at the end of my tether now! sorry again, thanks for your help :-*

So it was almost 3pm by the time she got to sleep finally :'( I know I shouldn't get so emotional over it all but she slept for 1h before waking herself and was soooo miserable all afternoon I just hate seeing her like this and all because she won't settle :( plus of course I know the night will be bad and as you can probably tell I'm already struggling big time with not enough sleep :-\ my mental state is just not good at all right now! DH bathing them now then straight for EBT again, I wanted 6pm but they won't be ready by then, as soon as possible then, but what to do tomorrow... ??? Do I just have to go for mega long A times so that she's super exhausted and gets used to crashing out straight to sleep and gets out of this habit of chatting for hours on end? Or pull right back as she's already OT and would ideally need an earlier nap, which she would certainly manage at the CM but hasn't done at home for a very long time :-\

So DH put her down 12:30pm Sunday and she went straight to sleep until he woke her 3:20pm (I was visiting a friend in hospital) - so very pleased she slept well but still very confused as to why she won't do that when I'm around ??? What can I do if it's just me? ::)
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 06:30:06 am by trimbler »



Offline jessmum46

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 19:41:46 pm »
Hun I've just found this in my list of replies, so sorry and big (((hugs))).

Just to recap, I assume you've ruled out anything different about the environment when you put her down compared with DH or the childminder?  And is there anything different in terms of timings?

I'm thinking going in when she is settling is a bad idea, unless she really *needs* you.  I would actually just stay right away in case the distraction isn't helping.  I'm still wondering if you need nap rather earlier for a while though....with a natural rested wake at 6.30-7am B is very happy to go down for his nap at 12ish and he's definitely not as HSN as your LO.    As your DD isn't getting a natural happy rested wake in the mornings right now (you're waking her, so not really giving her chance to get the sleep she needs to catch up on) I think 12.30 is too late for a HSN baby.  The fact you are seeing quite pronounced tired signs pre-nap says OT to me, usually when we go up B is wide awake and asking to play ::) but still drops off in 5 mins or so.  What about going crazy and just trying 11.30am for a bit?  What's the absolute worst that could happen? 

Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2016, 00:12:33 am »
Thanks Katherine - no apologies needed, I've only been ranting after all :P :-*

No differences that I've been able to pinpoint! CM puts her down any time between 12:15 and 12:45, I think depending on how tired she's seemed in the morning and what they were doing for an outing. She does look after other children, so I've not asked her to do anything too specific in terms of timings, since I don't even know what her ideal would be! Actually on Wednesday this week she wrote that she PD'd at 12:30 but she babbled for 15mins before dropping off, so today she wrote that she'd put her down at 12:45 and she went right off.

Yeah I see what you're saying... I guess we haven't tried 11:30am as when she first had a few one nap days, she was doing 5h first A time, but after a while (with two nap days in between and fairly good sleep on the whole) she started babbling away at 5h so we gradually moved the nap later, so I think she initially did 5h 15mins when she finally went to one nap every day, this ended up getting later but perhaps too soon. There does seem to be a general pattern of settling better when put down a little later, except for those days where she's had a really bad night, and in those cases she has been able to settle at 12:15 at the CM - but even then won't at home ::) But then again her A times are often longer really, as we only have to wake her at 7am if she's been awake, say from 6am and managed to drop back off again - she's often waking early these days, but then her gums are, in DH's words, "like mountains" :( and she's clearly bothered by it. I do kind of get the feeling that she likes a long morning A, but then needs a nice long nap and a short A to BT, 3.5h max. I have heard of other LOs like that, I think - is it ridiculous to think that's what she needs?? I'm guessing B would do more like 5h to BT? That would have been more typical for my DS, actually, he had about 5h either side of his nap to begin with, I think, and his settling problems always tended to be with BT at this age, rather than his nap - whereas DD settles fine at BT mostly, but as you know struggles to switch off at nap time...

Did you notice anything different between J and B, in terms of what they needed in order to be able to settle for sleep? I seem to remember my DS needed some good physical exercise! But this doesn't seem to make any difference to DD, from what I can tell - her sleep struggles at home seem to be the same whether she's been to the park, soft play or whatever, or just staying at home.

I should share some 'success' from Tuesday though - wasn't a brilliant night beforehand and she was awake from quite early but settled immediately at 12:30 :) and stayed sound asleep until I had to wake her at 3pm for school run. For comparison, CM PD'd at 12.30 on Wednesday and she slept 12:45 - 3:30 (DS has after school club so she doesn't have to do school run until later that day), then today she slept 12:45 - 2:50 (CM had to wake), which must have been too short as apparently she was having tantrums when DH brought her home!

Oh yes, what I was going to say about Tuesday was that I'd given her a big snack around 10am, which she really loved. She properly emptied her bowels then before lunch, which I did just before 12pm, she didn't eat loads but she often doesn't at that time anyway, but she didn't need a nappy change then before her nap, and was nicely comfortable I think, not over full or needing to poo... CM actually gives them a snack after the school run, which she seems to call breakfast, I'm not sure quite how much she eats then but perhaps a larger mid morning snack works better for her? I think perhaps when I haven't given her such a big snack she gets really hungry so I give her lunch a bit earlier than intended and then she kind of gets a second wind and struggles to switch off?

Sorry I'm not good at taking advice :P I will seriously consider the earlier nap time, I guess my concern would be that it could encourage EW if she likes a long first A, and that in turn would mean she'd need an earlier BT, but we just don't have the flexibility to make it any earlier. My other concern of course would be that she just wouldn't settle, she'd be so annoyed at being put down then and just be upset and not sleep. Or that she'd end up needing too long an A to BT, which she doesn't seem to cope with very well, or at least hasn't up until now...

Thanks so much, poor thing is having horrible nights now with those teeth, I do wish they'd hurry up without all this stop starting ::)



Offline jessmum46

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2016, 16:15:09 pm »
Not ridiculous at all to think she prefers a long morning!  Some LOs are like that I guess.  With DD the nap just moved later as she got older as she would refuse any earlier, latest it got was 1.30/2ish for a 6.30am-7/7.30pm day.  Bs afternoon A is 4.5-5.5h depending on how long he sleeps. 

Never particularly noticed much difference in settling between the two of them, though J would sometimes struggle to settle if she'd spent a lot of time sitting rather than active.  B goes down a touch earlier at nursery than home but I put that down to routine and stimulation level.  Oh one thing just reading about the snack/lunch thing - I do take B straight from his lunch chair up to bed.  He will often ask to play but if I let him get involved with something he will get super-cross if I then try to take him away.  So yes I'd leave lunch to the last minute before nap (we do 11.30 lunch at home and he's down by 12/12.15) and give a big snack mid morning to get her through :)


Offline trimbler

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Re: 19mo only settles well for naps with CM ???
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2016, 23:11:51 pm »
Ooh that's interesting about B needing to go straight to nap too. I guess I was set on the idea that I needed to give her time to poo before her nap, as this was an issue for DS, if he didn't do it then it would almost always disturb the nap. But she goes more frequently anyway and it seems with bigger snacks I can kind of make her go before lunch, so perhaps that's the way forward...

Wonky couple of days anyway, dodgy tummy yesterday :( gave her EBT as she was really tired, but then she had strange NWs. Probably my fault as I was concerned I hadn't heard a peep so went over to check on her around 11pm and managed to disturb her a little - my theory is I kind of inadvertently did w2s as she didn't stir much (just enough for me to know she was ok) and then continued to sleep soundly until around 2:45, when I reckon she had the nw that she might have had around 11:30?? But because she'd already had more sleep, she just chatted and sang for ages ::) almost 2h, then woke up again every half an hour or so until around 6:45 when she started singing "ding dang dong" (or at least her version - she had the tune but approximated the words), I guess that was our 'morning bells' ringing ;D She was just crazy this morning, very cute but just on a different planet! Screamed when I tried to put her in her highchair for lunch and seemed much happier when I suggested just going to bed, which we did (without lunch - she refused to even look at it), no fuss at all, but neither any sleep until an hour later ::) blah - no idea where we are now :P slightly delirious from lack of sleep myself - of course I just lay awake from 2:45am so not sure what I'm still doing up now really...DH working but that's no excuse, ok I've talked myself into going to bed now, night night and thanks :-*