Author Topic: 7 months old night waking and short naps  (Read 1908 times)

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Offline Mimi1

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7 months old night waking and short naps
« on: January 16, 2016, 10:45:11 am »
Hi, I wonder if someone could help. My little one is 7 months old and bf. He never slept through the night but can wake up between 2 to 5 times at night. He will quickly return to sleep only if I bf him.
It was OK when he was smaller but now I am thinking how will I cope when I return to work.
Also he was never a great sleeper during the day (night time he sleeps between 8pm and 8am or 7.30pm and 7.30am). He fights naps like crazy, crying a lot. I tried to wait for him to get tired and also put him to sleep before he is tired. It doesn't make any difference. After crying and fighti g he will sleep only for 30, max 45 min, 3 times a day. Even he he has only 2 naps he still doesn't sleep any longer. Recently he refuses to sleep during the day and I don't know what to do.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.

Offline Mimi1

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 11:23:38 am »
I never let him cio in case someone thought this by reading my message. I am now trying to transition him to 2 naps only but still need to bf to sleep.

Offline trimbler

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 19:11:09 pm »
Hi there and welcome to BW forums :)

It sounds like he may be a bit overtired, does that sound about right to you? Unfortunately that can cause havoc with short naps and problems getting to sleep as well as NWs. It may help us to help you if you could post a recent day, eg

7am Up and E
9:30-10:15 S (after screaming 20mins)
11am E...
...or whatever it looked like for you. Try and include things like whether he seemed tired after the short naps, whether/how you tried to resettle him, whether he self settled, etc. and include the NWs, both times and durations. Hopefully that will help us to spot patterns.

So, are you considering sleep training to wean him off needing to feed to sleep? Don't worry I didn't think you had been doing CIO and even if so we wouldn't judge, although we would never endorse that here. Instead we would recommend something like PUPD, where you stay with him and comfort him. Please be aware that he'll likely cry if he's used to feeding to sleep, and it will be hard work, you will need support IRL ideally (DH or family member?), so many people prefer to start sleep training at the weekend, for example, to get over the worst few days. I'm not sure if you've read the BW books but either way, have a read of this and see how you feel about it: Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

Alternatively, some parents and LOs get on better with a gradual withdrawal approach, which is outlined here (second section, don't do wiwo!): Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

How much milk do you think he takes at night? Does he take full feeds or just enough to fall back to sleep? Once I've seen your typical routine, we'll have a think about how to go about weaning some of those night feeds, if they're habitual rather than hunger driven. But I imagine we'll keep two night feeds for now, that would be pretty common for bf babies at this age, although many will manage with just the one.

I imagine you'll be trying for three naps whilst he gets used to going to sleep in a different way, as he'll likely get overtired and do short naps or even miss naps altogether at first, but don't worry, this stage will pass as he learns what's going on. It's quite common at this age to 'APOP' (accidental parenting on purpose) the third nap, as you say it won't be there much longer anyway. But I'd really encourage not to feed him to sleep even if you decide to APOP it, perhaps you could use a pram or sling or car ride instead? It'll just help him get to BT without becoming too overtired, and in turn that will help him settle at BT.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 19:14:23 pm by trimbler »



Offline Mimi1

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 20:05:53 pm »
Hi and thank you for your reply.
Our topical day looks like this although times differ as I still bf on demand.
6.00am bf (long feed and back to sleep)
7.30-8.00am wake up
8.00-8.30am breakfast (porridge, cereal or yoghurt with fruit)
9.00am bf and sleep for 30min (although last 2 days he is not asking for this feed)
11.00 bf
12.00 lunch
around 12.30-1pm sleep for 30min (this is the nap when he cries as I try to rock him)
1-1.30 bf (when he is up from his nap)
3-3.30pm bf and nap for 30 min, if he doesn't fall asleep on breast I try to rock him to sleep and he fights this nap.
4-4.30pm dinner
6.00 bed time routine
6.30 bf on and off and asleep around 7.30 -8pm

Nights differ but he wakes approx. at 10pm short feed (sometimes I manage to rock him back to sleep instead), 12 or 1am -longer feed and I think he needs this feed, then 2-3 -short feed, 4-5 short feed
On occassion he can wake in-between but there is no pattern to discribe.

Last 2 days as he is dropping 9am feed (just no interested) he doesn't sleep until I bf around 10.30 and then he sleeps for 1 hour! Which is very unusual for him. Then he will sleep again at 3pm for just ove 40-45min, which again is a bit longer than usual.
Would this suggest that he is ready to move to 2 naps? Last 2 nights were also a bit better e.g. Waking only at 12-1am and 4am then 6am for feed, which seems great...but we have been there before and it went back to frequent waking again

I hate to listen to him crying, honestly I just can't stand longer than a few minutes and I change position, cuddle, rock, walk, move about to calm him down. My partner is the same...  But my sister managed to put him to sleep under 10 min in his cot by singing and gently bouncing his materace... Both my partner and I tried and he will not settle for us in this way.

Offline Mimi1

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 20:54:10 pm »
ThingscI would like to do/get advice on:
Does our routine looks ok?
How can I stop feeding to sleep and teach him to self settle to sleep without crying?  (I like the idea of slow withdrawal as it seems to be without crying)
How can I reduce unnecessary feedings at night?
Should I keep 3 or 2 naps?
Any advice would be so much appreciated. Thank you

Offline trimbler

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 23:49:53 pm »
Thanks for that info, that's really useful. I think the last couple of days he seems to be telling you what I'd have said from the previous routine you posted above - that he needs to be awake longer first thing, in order to settle for a longer nap. How long was he up, that day when he slept for an hour in the morning? I'd expect anywhere between 2.5-3h at this age, to get a decent nap, some will do longer. Actually many will do 3h by 6mo but mine were always on the shorter end of things! So anyway, he's been sleeping 10:30-11:30 and then again 3-3:45ish? It would be really useful to see this new routine, as the naps would be a little on the short side for most LOs but we may be able to extend those with just a few tweaks in the routine, so that he can get to BT without being so OT...

The other potential issue with getting longer naps is the feeding to sleep prop. It may be that he's just stirring in the transitions between sleep cycles (which typically last around 45mins in babies) but then he can't get himself back off to sleep again without the circumstances in which he initially got to sleep being recreated - in his case, your feeding him to sleep. I've heard it explained as like if our pillow mysteriously disappeared during the night, we'd probably wake up at some point between sleep cycles and be unable to get back to sleep without first finding the pillow.

Now, I really understand that it's so hard to hear him cry :-* however most of the methods we recommend here do involve some crying, it's just that we never advocate leaving a LO alone to figure it out themselves, we will always give them the comfort they need. The crying is usually about showing frustration as they've been used to going to sleep one way and suddenly we change the rules on them. They can't tell us this in words yet, so they cry. Sometimes, especially when LOs are OT, the crying is actually the only way they can shut out the world so that they can finally switch off and go to sleep. I personally found that wearing earplugs helped a lot during sleep training - please understand this was not to block out the cries completely, they were certainly loud enough that I could still hear them, it's just that I didn't get a headache in the process. Which may sound really uncaring, but actually I knew that by staying with them and helping them learn how to go to sleep themselves, maintaining physical contact (practically lying in the cot at times!), staying consistent, they would eventually learn how to self settle and consequently to be able to get the sleep they needed, most of the time :P Actually the gradual withdrawal method does involve some crying usually, it's just that the steps are smaller, so for example at first you may try to get her to sleep by holding her in your arms but not feeding; next by laying down next to her; then by just placing a hand on her or holding her hand, etc, etc. but each time you make a change she may well protest by crying :-\

For a method that's advertised as 'no-cry', you could look at Pantley's gentle removal: Gentle Removal Plan
We do support this here but fewer of us have had experience of it, and many find that it's hard to keep the momentum going, due to the fear of baby crying. So I suggest you have a think about how important not crying is to you, and why you're afraid of LO crying, and what your goals are long term? If you decide that you can live with some crying, knowing that it will be temporary and will eventually lead to LO sleeping better, then we can work on gradual withdrawal or PUPD. If on the other hand you feel strongly that whatever happens, you want as little crying as possible, then have a go at Pantley's method. Let me know what you decide :-* But bear in mind that all the rocking, walking and moving around may end up being counterproductive, especially if he's OT, as it could overstimulate him and make it even harder for him to switch off. Sometimes, less is more, but I understand, when baby is crying you want to do anything you can to make it stop :-*

If you decide to go down the Pantley route, it may be slow going at night but it's supposed to gently encourage fewer, shorter, feeds. If that doesn't happen, you may need to resettle her in other ways when she wakes, which is why I'd personally prefer to use gradual withdrawal during the day, so that she can get used to another way of going to sleep, which is what you'd repeat at night if she wakes, say, less than 3h since her last feed. At first she may wake at 2h after her last feed and you may spend an hour trying to resettle her before feeding. But the next night, you may find you have success resettling her without a feed, and she ends up going a bit longer before she wakes again, and then you'd feed her.

Now it may be that you'd like to work on her routine whilst continuing to feed to sleep - which may possibly work, if she's able to keep up those longer naps. Then once she's better rested, she may be better able to cope with sleep training. However, it may be that the feeding to sleep is such a strong prop that she can't maintain long naps until that's weaned, and if that turns out to be the case then I'd encourage you to concentrate on weaning that. Either way, I'd be a bit flexible with 2 vs 3 naps for now - if she does short naps then she'll need shorter A times in between to keep her from getting too OT, so you'd squeeze in a third; if she has nice long naps then you may get by without one. Most LOs need to be doing at least 3h A time before they can completely drop the third nap - have a read of this: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months



Offline Mimi1

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 01:39:22 am »
Thank you so much - I have a lot to think about!
For now let me update his new routine (last 2 days):
6.00am bf (long feed and back to sleep)
7.30-8.00am wake up
8.00-8.30am breakfast
10.30 bf and sleep (he would be awake 3hrs by this point)
12.00 lunch
1-1.30 bf
3pm bf and nap for 45 min (awake around 3hrs by this time)
4-4.30pm dinner
6.00 bed time routine
6.30 bf on and off (with falling asleep in between) and asleep around 7.30 -8pm

I never know if awake time should be time between up and put down for a nap or up and actually sleeping e.g. do I put him down to sleep say 10-15min before the 3 hrs are up or bang on 3 hrs?
I will think about the way I feel I can start working on stopping bf to sleep and update soon.

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 04:00:44 am »
One more question...It May be a silly one but I am a first time mum so have no idea: When you start to do sleep trainin does it mean that for a short time (while baby learns to sleep) baby may sleep a little bit less as he would spend a bit longer to fall asleep while he is getting used to a new way of falling asleep?

Offline trimbler

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 14:30:48 pm »
Hi there, so sorry I don't have long now and it won't get back on until tomorrow evening, but for now - A time is the time between waking up and actually falling asleep, so you'll need to start putting him down before the 3h, and yes, it will likely take longer for him to fall asleep as he learns the new way of sleeping, unfortunately. So it may be that you'll be aiming for a bit less than 3h to start with, as he'll be extra tired.

Question for you: how long is the morning nap?



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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 15:17:52 pm »
Hi, thank you.
His morning nap was 30 min but recently it is 1hr-1hr 15min long.

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2016, 10:19:44 am »
Yesterday he woke up 6.30, which is 1HR earier than usual. Was asleep at 9am again for 1HR 15min, then again at 12.20 for 35min and again at 3pm for 1HR and 30min. SO not like him (he is well no signs of illness etc.)
I thought a lot about the method I would like to use. Discussed this with my partner as we need to do it together and we just can't do anything that involves crying as we will not last...so It looks like slow removal of breast is the only way forward to us...gosh wish me luck!

Offline trimbler

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2016, 21:10:47 pm »
We're here for you :-* Great news about the longer naps recently :D You know, he may be starting to get it... We'll see! I know you won't have been so happy about the 6:30am start, but that was a better first nap, wasn't it?

Definitely aim for at least 2.5h for that first A time, I'd personally be wanting to stretch it a bit, but you may find that happens anyway once you start withdrawing the breast before he falls asleep. So I think if you want to start that now, then I'd aim to start the bf at whatever time you normally would in order for him to be asleep by 2.5h after he woke in the morning. I've never done this myself but I imagine that you may have some (or many) false starts to his nap, so it may well end up being much later than intended and consequently end up being short. If that happens, aim for the next nap to be 2h later (as a start - we can tweak when we see what actually happens), but be really consistent and don't let him actually fall asleep on the breast - that's your first goal.

I'm so glad to hear that your DP is on board :) you're absolutely right you'll need to do this together, he will need to remind you not to let LO fall asleep on the breast as it will be hard work and so easy to cave in, but worth it in the end :-*

Just thinking about the nights - sorry I can't remember if you mentioned before, do you co-sleep or feed to sleep and then put him back in his crib asleep?



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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 01:52:25 am »
Hi, Thanks for your message. Yes, it is good to see his nap streaching a bit. Hopefully it will continue.
Night time I feed and put him back to his cot once he is asleep. So I guess I will also have to earn to put him to his cot before he falls asleep completly?

Offline trimbler

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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 22:49:18 pm »
Well...tbh I used to cheat at night and do just the same :P I think I'd concentrate on weaning feed to sleep at naps and BT first, then at night you could perhaps put him down a little sooner, so he's in lighter sleep and may rouse a bit, or even just stroke him or something so that he stirs a little once you've put him down. But the first goal for naps and BT is to get him falling to sleep without the nipple in his mouth - you can still hold him to sleep for now. Once he's happy doing that we move on... How do you feel about that?



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Re: 7 months old night waking and short naps
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2016, 07:33:10 am »
I think this would be best for now otherwise it may be too much to approach night time at the same time and we won't get any sleep. Also as you say it is easier to cheat at night.