Author Topic: What is typical 4 month sleep?  (Read 1134 times)

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Offline twinmama2

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What is typical 4 month sleep?
« on: January 18, 2016, 00:47:11 am »
My 4 month old is not a great sleeper but I'm not sure if this is just typical 4 month behavior or if it's something that needs "fixing". What is " normal" for this age? How many naps and how long? How many nw to feed? What time for bedtime and to wake up in the morning?
Thanks so much.

Offline trimbler

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2016, 14:17:48 pm »
Hi there, I'm afraid 4mo tends to be a horrible age for sleep :-\ Perhaps that's reassuring for you though? :P There's a sleep regression, and if you haven't worked on getting your LO to sleep independently yet, this may be a good time time start, as props can start becoming problematic at this age, even if working well before. There's also a growth spurt, and most LOs will be working on extending their routine from a 3h to a 4h EASY. Have a read of these and come back if you have more questions or would just like a hand to hold through this often challenging time :-*

Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

Sorry almost forgot your night feeding question - breast or bottle? IME most breastfed LOs will be taking around 3 night feeds at this age, but of course this will vary and some will take two or sometimes even just one.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 14:22:42 pm by trimbler »



Offline twinmama2

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2016, 15:57:38 pm »
Thank you for those links. It is helpful to see examples of what she "should" be doing right now.  I think we have some things to work on though. 

She goes about 3 hours between feeds, once in a while 3.5 but I'm not sure she's ready to extend that yet.  She usually has about 2 hours A time and has always seemed to be able to tolerate A times a little on the longer end. 
Her naps are pretty erratic.  Sometimes 3and sometimes 4 a day.  The first one is usually pretty good but after that they get short.  That 4th nap pushes bedtime pretty late though. 

She is sometimes able to go to sleep independently but usually needs help, either being rocked or nursed to sleep.  I know we need to work on that but I just don't know how to start. Sometimes she gets so agitated when I swaddle her and we go into the dark room. The only way I can get her to stop screaming in my arms is to nurse her to sleep (but that doesn't always work either).

She was waking to feed 3 times a night unil the last few nights.  It's been every 1-2 hours the last few nights. I know she doesn't need to feed all those times, but just won't settle aAy other way.  I also have 2 two-year-olds who I am very nervous about her waking at night (also terrible sleepers and very hard to get back down if they wake at night!).

Here's our day yesterday:
A. 7:25 (usually have to wake her up between 7:30 and 8)
E. 8:30
S. 9:00-11:00 (rocked her down)
E. 11:55
E. 12:50
S. 1:00-1:30 (nursed down)
E  3:00
S. 3:35-4:20 (put down awake)
E. 5:30 (small amount in bottle,  then nurse)
E. 6:20 (trying to get her down for nap and really fighting it)
S. 7:00-7:45 (was hoping this would be bedtime, but she treated it like a nap)
E. 8:15
S. 9:30 (nursed down)
She was tthen up at 12:35, 2:05, 3:20, and 5:15

Any changes you think we need to make to the schedule? 
Also, suggestions for teaching her to sleep independently? Not sure what to do about shh/Pat when she just screams and won't settle for it.

Thanks so much.

Offline trimbler

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2016, 21:30:03 pm »
You certainly have your hands full - you supermum :D

Quick question - any signs of discomfort at all, eg reflux? No, don't worry if not, I don't want you imagining things that aren't there, just wanted to check before embarking on sleep training :-*

Nice WU time - just realised your 8am was autocorrected to 8) , I just thought you were very happy about the WU time ;D well I would be, anyway ;)

One thing I noticed about the day you posted was that she had a nice long 2h nap, just 1.5h after she woke for the day - I can't help wondering whether she treated that as the end of her night, especially given that she seemed to treat BT as a nap, do you see what I mean? The remedy for that would be to keep her up a bit longer at the beginning of the day, at least 2h, before letting her nap - especially if her A times tend to be on the long side. Now if you're unlucky, she may then do a short OT nap, but at least even if she does that, she won't have tacked on to her night sleep, so she should go down earlier for BT and not want to be up late into the evening.

My feeling is that she probably needs her A times stretched a bit, so perhaps once she's starting her day 'for real' at 7:30ish rather than 11am (if I was right about that...?) then give that first A another little push, say, 2h 15mins - wdyt? Then we'll take it from there. If she short naps and needs a 4th CN before bed, go ahead and do it, but make it short, even 10-20mins will do, it's just to get her to a sensible BT (anything between a 11-13h night can be normal for some LOs, perhaps you already know what yours prefers at the moment?) without getting OT. Often better to have that CN than to arrive at BT after a long A time and be OT. Alternatively, if you feel she's accumulated sufficient A time during the day already, you can try EBT - do you have a feel for how much overall sleep she ideally needs to be well rested? At this age I doubt if many LOs actually get that ::) but it helps to have an idea of what we're aiming for :P

Oh and as for shh pat - have you tried varying it, eg only doing the shh, or not patting but just laying your hand on her? She may be fighting sleep because she's not quite ready ie UT, but either way it all sounds very familiar! Sometimes when mine got like that I'd try and distract them with something else - DS responded quite well to visual things eg looking at each other in a mirror whilst I held him in the bedroom, it focused his attention on something else just enough to distract him from his habit of crying, but not so much as to overstimulate him. DD on the other hand responded better to singing, and still does in fact, when she starts losing it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 21:35:06 pm by trimbler »



Offline twinmama2

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 14:48:41 pm »
So we've worked on stretching the A times and I've been having some more luck with shh/Pat as well. Thank you.
However, her bedtime has been getting frustrating. I'll get her down for the night and she will almost always wake up 40-50 minutes later and have a very hard time going back down.  Lately after an hour or more of trying to get her down I've given in and just let her sleep in my bed (not something I prefer).  That's the only way I seem to be able to get her back to sleep and stay asleep.  I'm not sure what's going on, OT, UT, sleep associations we have to work harder at breaking??

These are the last couple days:
THURSDAY
Awake 7:45 (had to wake her up)
Nap 10:20-11:50 (tried for a bit earlier but she had a really hard time going down, then woke at 10:50 and had to be soothed back to sleep)
Nap 2:30-3:10
Nap 5:50-6:20 (again tried to get her down earlier but she had a hard time!)
Bedtime 8:20
Woke at 9:10, tried to soothe until 10:00 when she came to my bed.
NW and feeds at 2:40 and 5:15

FRIDAY
Awake 7:15
Nap 9:30-11:00
Nap 1:20-2:00
Nap 4:40-5:10 (was hoping to get her down earlier, but unexpected visitors puhed that back quite a bit)
Bedtime 7:30
Awake 8:20, soothed until 9:30 then came to my bed.
NW and feeds at 12:20, 2:45, 6:30

Awake this morning at 7:10

Do you think that wake up just after bedtime is schedule related or something that we need to push through with sleep training?

Thanks so much.

Offline trimbler

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 15:09:11 pm »
Hi there, glad you've seen some progress - well done both of you :)

That waking soon after BT sounds OT to me I think. Taking your routine as a whole, it seems that 2.5h A may be a bit long for her, but 2h 15mins before her first nap seemed to work well on Friday. Can you remember how she was after her short second nap on Friday? Hard to tell from a distance whether that was OT or UT - some LOs do best with a shorter first A and longer second A, whilst others may need it the other way around. So whilst you can probably assume the first A is ok for now at 2h15min, you may need to experiment with the second A... If you get a short nap, try to pull the next A a bit shorter otherwise she'll be OT for the next nap. Same with BT - bring it earlier if you can, make the last A quite short to avoid OT at BT. Again you'll need to experiment a bit, but if you see that waking soon after BT you probably need to pull back a bit more. Oh and the sling was my lifesaver for short naps at this age ;) Using it for the next nap after a short one would mean I could resettle DD much more easily if she woke OT, plus I could be out in the park with DS :)

How does that sound to you?



Offline twinmama2

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 14:28:36 pm »
We've been playing around with the A times the last few days and yesterday she had some really good naps.  But then her night was rough and she was up really early this morning! 

SATURDAY
Awake 7:10
Nap 9:25-10:00
Nap 11:00-11:30 (fell asleep in sling, unintentionally)
Nap 1:20-2:00, was able to soothe/rock her and she slept fitfully until 2:55
Nap 4:50-5:20
Bedtime 7:40
fussed and self-soothed at 8:45
NW at 10:45, 1:15, 3:00, 5:30

SUNDAY
Awake 6:55
Nap in car 8:10-8:55
Nap 10:35-11:10
Nap 1:20-2:00
Nap 4:10-4:50
Bedtime 6:55
fussed and self-soothed at 7:45
NW 9:00, 12:30, 3:05, 6:10

MONDAY
Awake 7:20
Nap 9:30-12:00
Nap 2:05-3:00
Nap 5:15-5:55
Bedtime 8:15
9:20 fussed and self-soothed
NW at 11:20, 1:00, 3:00

TUESDAY
Awake at 5:20!! (tried and tried to treat it like a nightwaking and get her back down, but she was wide awake, happy, and ready to start the day!)
I just spend over 45 minutes trying to get her down for a nap, so she fell asleep at 8:15
I'm afraid we're in for a rough day.  No idea what caused such an early wake up for her.  I usually have to wake her up in the mornings! 
Any thoughts on that or suggestions for our day?  We had such a good yesterday I was hoping to be able to replicate it today but I don't think that will happen!

Offline trimbler

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 19:53:23 pm »
Hi there, sorry I couldn't get back to you until now, how did it go in the end? And today?

It's really helpful to see those days laid out like that. I think I'm still inclined to say keep the 2h15min for the first A, or perhaps even 2h10, considering the mammoth nap she took on Monday :) Unfortunately, it's possible this may have backfired on you later (I'd usually recommend waking after 2h), or perhaps it was the next A time being on the shorter side which produced the shorter (UT) second nap - go for at least 2h15mins second A time if the first nap is restorative (usually taken to mean at least 1.5h although some LOs find shorter naps of an hour or so restorative - assume she needs at least 1.5h for now). Then I suspect the third A time of 2h15mins may have been a little long (but I'm guessing here) after the shorter second nap, resulting in a short (OT) third nap, and then by the time BT rolled around after a further 2h 15min A, she was almost certainly OT. The classic sign of this is wakings within the first 2-3h or so of BT (very often 30-45mins after BT, or perhaps 1.5h), and then, unfortunately, an EW - which is what you had Tuesday morning, since the night was only 9h or so :-\ (((hugs))) EWs are tough! Can I suggest that if possible you keep A time to a minimum after a short third nap, especially if the second nap was also a little on the short side? This will hopefully help to avoid the OT at BT. Much better actually to go for an earlier BT and wake up perhaps on the early side the next day, but refreshed, and actually LOs will often surprise us by tacking on lost day sleep during the night, and waking up at a good time in the morning.

Harder to comment on the other days as they started with short naps on the go - obviously that's unavoidable sometimes but it makes working out routines a bit harder. I suspect that you'll need to keep A times after short naps to no more than 2h and probably less than that, especially if you've had two short naps. Maybe even just an hour between a short evening CN and BT. Have a go with that anyway, and keep posting the days... :-*



Offline twinmama2

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 19:52:40 pm »
So we had to spend several days recovering from an ear infection and vaccines but I think we're getting back on track now.  She is doing a really great job of falling asleep independently most of the time (the times when she can't I think are because I haven't quite figured out her ideal A times yet).
The first nap is usually really good now, but still having a lot of trouble figuring out the second and third one.  The best second nap we've had is only 55 minutes, sometimes as short as 30 minutes. And if the first nap ends up being short for some reason we just cannot recover from it and have short naps all day and an overtired baby by bedtime.
These are the last few days.

MONDAY
6:50 awake
Nap 9:00-10:30
Nap 1:00-1:35 (tried to settle her and ended up nursing her back down)
Nap 2:05-2:35
Nap 4:30-4:55
Bed 6:30
NW and feeds at 11:40, 1:55, 3:25

TUESDAY
6:35 awake
Nap 8:55-10:25
Nap 12:30-1:15
Nap 3:20-4:00
Tried to get her down again a bit after 5:00 but she only slept in my arms for 5-10 minutes
Bed 6:55
NW and feeds at 8:50, 12:35, 4:55

WEDNESDAY
6:45 awake
Nap 8:55-11:15
Nap 1:30-2:15
Nap 4:20-4:50 (had to be rocked to sleep)
Bed 6:35
NW and feeds at 9:10, 11:25, 2:40

THURSDAY (so far...)
5:40 awake (yikes! not sure we'll be able to recover from this, always had really hard days when she wakes early)
Nap 8:05-8:30 (had to nurse her to sleep)
Nap 10:15-11:00 (rocked her to sleep)

Thanks for your insight.

Offline trimbler

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Re: What is typical 4 month sleep?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 21:29:39 pm »
Oh dear sorry about the EW this morning, what a pain! Do be aware that lovely long first naps can sometimes have that effect, I'm wondering whether that lovely one on Wednesday may have contributed to the EW on Thursday, but that's really just speculation, something to keep an eye on perhaps if it happens again.

First, I must confess that at this age I always did the second nap in the sling, out in the park so DS could run around! I also found it a tough one to judge, but I'll just pass on my thoughts on the last few days... So, Monday she had a 1.5h first nap followed by 2.5h A time and did what seems like an OT nap. Then Tuesday she did a 1.5h first nap again followed by a 2h (+5min) A time and I think gave you a UT nap. So you did the sensible thing on Wednesday and tried a 2.25h A time, however, her first nap that day was a whopping 2h 20mins (wow!) so perhaps the following A time was a little short, given how long she'd napped?

I think also aim for under 2h A time following a short nap - some LOs need to be pushed and can be more easily resettled after an OT short nap, so it may be that she needs that, but I'm thinking try going a little shorter first, say, 1h 50mins after a short nap. If that doesn't work then we can rethink... Hope that's making some sense to you as I'm getting sleepy myself now :P