Author Topic: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn  (Read 5018 times)

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Offline Kellyjs

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2016, 19:49:22 pm »
I'm so sorry you had a rough night last night Jo. I had one too if it's any consolation. DD was screaming for over an hour before BT and nothing I could do helped. I lost it too and shouted  :-[. I'm afraid I don't have any advice atm, but I wanted you to know you're not the only one and as our LO's are the same age perhaps we can hope together that's it's just developmental and once the moon changes (or something  ;)) we'll have our sweet little children back? xx



Offline *Ali*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2016, 21:22:18 pm »
Hugs Jo. I'd definitely check with the Dr about the meds. It might not be worth giving a dose that is too low to have an effect.

Do you have a monitor? I'm just thinking I use the talk back feature on the monitor to tell mine to go to sleep without needing to get up.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline *Jo*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2016, 03:17:22 am »
No, if I cuddle him he just thinks it's play time. No monitor either
Dr had nothing for me, she's stumped, she said that the melatonin is the highest they give. She did suggest alternating the phenergan and melatonin so he doesn't build up a tolerance which he seems to be doing.
I've talked to a child nurse who's basically said he's wanting me at night and no matter how big or small that's what he's getting. And until I don't give him ME and he realises this then this will continue. You know what that means right? She's suggesting CIO :(





Offline *Jo*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2016, 03:34:56 am »
She also said get rid of the dummy, he has a cuddly so he won't be without. Put a nightlight in his room and if he gets up shut the door and lock it. Tell him prior to this and at the time that if he gets up the door will be shut, he can only have the door open if he stays in bed.





Offline Haribo2012

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2016, 06:21:47 am »
You know I'm sure that we don't support CIO so I'd personally go with camping outside the door or rapid return to bed. Locking the door is something I couldn't do, maybe he does want your attention but imagine someone locking you in when you felt you needed someone. (Not judging just my thoughts) what about a gate on his door if you have a stair gate?

I'd go with telling him at BT that when he wakes and calls for you that you will come check on him but you won't stay as you all need to sleep in your own beds. When he wakes go in tell him it's still nighttime and everyone is sleeping, quick kiss and you will leave his door a little bit open. Basically keep repeating, if he's not poorly and its sleep training related he will learn.
I know it makes you frustrated and anxiety kicks in but really try to stay calm so he's not getting loads of attention.

Zoe


Offline *Jo*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2016, 06:47:29 am »
Yes I'm aware of no CIO here lol I'm a very long time member (was even a moderator on the naps board for a year!) I  just haven't been active for awhile because both my other two kids were sleep trained the baby whisperer way and I've had no real issues with sleep as they were all trained before they were even 6 months old and I only had the occasional hiccups. With Asher I couldn't sleep train due to his asthma and so now I'm just in unfamiliar territory. I've not dealt with a toddler sleep issue before and with two other kids to deal with and the lack of sleep the desperation is growing, my patience is non existent.

I will consider what you've said and attempt something similar, however I must say that should I feel myself going to a dangerous place I will close the door. It is safer than if I continue. In my mind it's not CIO it's a safety issue.





Offline Haribo2012

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2016, 07:08:09 am »
Lol cool you know better than me  ;)

Toddler sleep is hard as they are so opinionated and louder.

I understand if you feel it's getting out of control shut the door and take a breather xx
Zoe


Offline athenasmom

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2016, 14:17:39 pm »
I know it is no consolation to you but my DD just pulled one last night too and was up from 2:20 till 4:00  :P Lots of coffee for me today <YAWN>

I was several times told that I am stupid to not let my DS CIO when we went through similar issues. Your DS sounds a lot like mine. I am not sure it has to do with sleep training early on. My DS was sleep trained at 4 months the BW way and was an excellent sleeper until these developmental things hit. He knew how to put himself to sleep but he was not ABLE to do it after he already slept several hours. His brain was so active and just kept firing away keeping him awake. I bet if you watch your DS play during the day you will find that he has the most lively imagination. I found actually that quickly responding to his call made it easier for him to go back to sleep. This is how I rationalized it: I believe that all kids do good if they can. He is awake because he cannot put himself back to sleep. He does not mean to aggravate me he just cannot do it and needs my help. I need to trust him that he only calls me when he needs me (regardless whether it is a physical or emotional need) and I want him to trust me that he can rely on me and I will be there for him when he needs me regardless if it is day or night.  I am not trying to downplay your struggle ... I exactly know where you are ... I was there several times. Being sleep deprived and anxious about the next night is terrible. Heck, I am sleep deprived right now and do not look forward tonight  :P

BUT I found with DS that my attitude was very important when I had to deal with NW. More drama = longer NW. Can you go to bed earlier? I know you have 3 kids so it must be super busy for you but try to catch up on sleep in the earlier part of the night. Can you switch bedrooms with your other kids so that your room is next to his? I know that being ripped out of sweet sleep is hard but it must be a killer to have to go up and down stairs too.  For easier logistics you might consider that. I also used to put a pillow and a thick comforter by DS's door and would lay down there when I was outside his door. After a while I learnt to relax and even snooze there for the 20 min he was quiet LOL I do the same with DD except it is in the room around the corner from her crib where she does not see me. To ease my brain and help with the anxiety I used to tell myself my major motto "This too shall pass". When he called for me I would go to him but did not engage just repeat my sleep phrase and say "it's night-night time, go to sleep". If he got out of bed I put him back and rubbed his back for a little while then said the sleep phrase and left. If he asked for water I did not speak just gave it to him then said the sleep phrase and left. There were nights when the NW was 3 hours long  ;D but the general average was 1.5 hours. And this went on for months. 

The last point I want to make is something some of the ladies might not agree with me but I found that all kids have a natural BT that is kind of set by their internal clock and falls into their sleep rhythm, just as they have a natural sleep need of x hours. I found that deviating form this natural sleep rhythm meant sleep disturbances for us. So it might be that your DS needs a later BT than 6:30. Maybe his internal clock tells him that he has slept x amount of hours already and now it is time to wake up. Only it is the middle of the night kwim? He has no problem falling asleep at that time because he is exhausted from broken sleep at night, but then the cycle starts again and he is up in the middle of the night. Maybe give this a little thought. I found my DS's natural sleep time is 8:30-ish which is considered late for most BW moms.
*Suzanna*





Offline *Ali*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2016, 23:38:23 pm »
Hugs Jo. That child nurse sounds like a right old meanie  >:( :P

I'd put a gate at his door and stay outside it. I wouldn't allow him to engage you in conversation e.g. about water, dummies or toys, and would just remain silent. You can warn him beforehand that there will be no talking at night. The most I would do is to shush him or occasionally say "sleepy time".

It certainly a very tough situation.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline *Jo*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2016, 09:09:28 am »
Thanks Ali. I don't have a gate at all and to be honest I think he could get past one even if I did have it... What else could I do. In a way she's right, he wants me and he's getting me but when there's ONLY me how do I stop this cycle





Offline jessmum46

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2016, 11:08:10 am »
Just adding some extra hugs and just to clarify re the melatonin.  It's not a sedative per se, and doesn't need weaning - you can just stop it you feel it doesn't help.  As others have said it is a naturally occurring hormone in the brain which predominantly helps with sleep initiation, not maintenance (although some people do seem to find it helps with NWs) and will not help if there is a medical/discomfort issue or an issue of sleep training/habit.  Reading through I wonder if you should go all out with gradual withdrawal, actually.  I know you said he messed about when you slept in his room but as I read it that was only one night?  I wonder if the novelty might wear off if you are consistent - at least a week, preferably two - and he may settle down if he finds he's getting no interaction?  May get you some more rest as well?  Then you could work on getting out of the room?  Can I check - have you given pain meds to see if they help with molar pain?  For my kids those prolonged wakings, settling for 10-15 mins then waking again have always been discomfort-related so it makes sense to rule that out.  Also how's his asthma?  Allergies? 

I guess to answer the question you just asked about breaking the cycle, it may come down to you holding out longer than him  :-\ sounds like his tantrums overnight are kind of holding you to ransom and I wonder if you may need to resolve to tough it out a bit more?  Not ignoring him/CIO but holding firm to 'the rules' and doing so for long enough, consistently enough that he gets the message.  Hard I know, not over-simplifying or saying it is easy, but just that these LOs are not stupid and will push and push us where we are weakest.  And at night we all know our resolve is weakest....

For yourself I hope I'm not overstepping the line by saying it sounds like you are super-stressed right now and I wonder whether you need to reach out for some help for you too?  We all go through periods of rough sleep with our LOs but if your own batteries are fully charged, it makes it easier to handle :-* ((hugs))
***Katherine***







Offline weaver

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2016, 12:57:04 pm »
ITA with what Katherine says ^^^^

My instinct here is for you to stay in his room with him for a few nights and then GW from there. Sitting outside shushing him might be better, but, frankly, you'll be more comfortable and stand a chance of being rested if you're lying down on the floor.  I would not want to be sitting on the stairs in the middle of the night.  Maybe you have the option of camping in the hallway?   I would make sure not to be in the same bed (somehow I think you were when you did it before, but I might be wrong).  I would preface the whole thing with a 'big chat' a few times during the day to lay down the law - no talking, no messing, I will be there for you but you must do your bit, your water is here, your dummy is there, whatever.  His behaviour really sounds like he needs reassurance, and I wonder if there's any read across into the daytime. Sometimes doing things a bit differently in the day can make a big difference.

My LO2 can get into an incredibly frustrating loop of BT nonsense so I generally just don't engage with the substance, in the nicest way possible, it is better for me keeping my cool, otherwise I just start arguing back and we all know who wins arguments with 3 yos (the 3 yos!).  I just repeat whatever sleepy phrase ('it's the middle of the night', 'it's time to sleep') and keep interaction minimal.

I'm sad that mean old nurse is out there dishing out such harsh advice.  My LO1 had his dummy til well past 3.5 yo!

hugs Jo hope you can recharge your batteries somehow.
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline *Jo*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2016, 18:26:44 pm »
I do feel a gradual withdrawal would be best I just know that I have no patience or anything left in me at the moment due to three months of no sleep and I know I wouldn't last long. I've reached out this week for help but it seems friends and family are not wanting to help in any other sense than just giving me well meaning but in a sense useless repetitive advice that I've already tried. He starts a new preschool on Monday, my eldest goes back to school for the new year on Tuesday and I'm starting my course in two weeks. So some big changes happening and I need my sleep.
I think if I do the GW I need to be focused enough and not at the end of my tether to do it. So I will continue alternating the phenergan and melatonin a short while longer to get myself rested (so far two nights of good sleep with it) last week when he was sleeping I started to feel more myself after 5 days even tho it wasn't 100%, I think after two weeks of good sleep I can take him off the melatonin, prepare myself for the long haul and get stuck into it. At the moment if I do it then it will fail as I am pretty empty and life is about to get full on for short while.

I can put a mattress on the floor in his room, that's not a problem. So when I start this what do I do? I need specifics.
I sleep on the floor, if he wakes what do I do? Just say the phrase? And if he doesn't settle what then? I can't pay him as he loves it and sometimes demands it, he will roll over onto his tummy and say "my back mum, my back" and gets into a tantrum if I say no so I hardly ever do it.





Offline jessmum46

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2016, 07:54:30 am »
You have to be prepared for tantrums, I think  :-\ realistically with a toddler this is unlikely to get fixed without. 

I would explain the rules to him in the daytime.  "Mummy will stay in your room and I will be sleeping on the floor.  If you wake up in the night, you need to find your dummy and go back to sleep (does he have a light/torch to be able to do this?) Your drink is *here* if you need it.  We all need a good sleep so we can have lots of energy to play together in the morning."  Or words to that effect.  Then if he has trouble settling/wakes at night you continue to lie on the mattress, face away, don't engage other than to say get your dummy and go to sleep, it's night time.  Or similar.  If he has a tantrum, fine, let him have a tantrum.  I don't mean to sound harsh but if you avoid doing something (reading your post this seems to be saying 'no' to his demands) because he might have a tantrum, it's that thing you probably need to look at changing :-* :-*. He will sleep, eventually, he can't stay awake forever ;) but you'll need to resolve to out-last him.

Completely get you need to be in the right mental/energy space to do it though - this isn't going to be an easy fix in one night and I wouldn't be being fair to you I don't think if I suggested otherwise.  Very happy to support you to keep going when you are ready to start x
***Katherine***







Offline *Jo*

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Re: 2.5 yr old worse than a newborn
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2016, 08:32:55 am »
Ok cool thanks, we've actually lost the dummy so it's what we are dealing with tonight. He told me he threw it and I said well because you threw I cannot find it but you have your Neichi (his cuddly) and he will keep you safe and give you big cuddles tonight because dummy is lost.
It took about half an hour of tantrums but he finally went to sleep. He's woken again and is totally disorientated and crying. I just kept telling him dummy is lost and Neichi is here, cuddle Neichi. I said our bedtime phrase of "goodnight, I love you, I'll see you in the morning" and he repeated it back to me. I left and he was quiet for a few mins and crying out again.

It feels really unfair now to add this to the whole thing right??