Night waking/feeding question

[trimbler]

Well I don't like to disagree with medics generally, but if she's still taking a good feed at night and it doesn't seem to be affecting daytime feeding then I'd personally keep it for now.

It sounds like she's still doing well on self setting in general, that's great As for ideas on how to wean coming into bed with you when you're both ready... Well, there's still the hand in cot thing if you lower the mattress, right? Or is that not possible with her cot? I seem to remember reading somewhere about Tracy actually climbing into a cot to lie with a baby (!) who was having trouble weaning from co sleeping - but I really doubt that would be necessary since she settles well otherwise. I'm kind of hoping that once she's feeling better and the routine settles down (transitions tend to be quite bumpy, so this may be all it is, once she's settled on her two naps you may get some stability for a while - let's hope so anyway!), then it should be easier to get her back into independent sleep habits at night. It may be that she protested for such a long time previously, because she was in discomfort or UT/OT. Is she especially spirited? Spirited LOs (and their parents!) often have a harder time with this sort of thing, especially if they're very persistent, so I think whatever you decide to do, consistency is key. There are lots of other parents here with spirited LOs who I'm sure have lots of tips, and of course hands to hold

As for your other question re timings of NWs - I'd pretty much say the same as you, that the early evening wakings are more likely to be OT, but bear in mind that OT wakings can be a little later too - I was convinced our DD must have been UT when she started 1-2h regular NWs around 11-1am, so kept pushing BT until one day she was so tired we went for EBT and discovered that that was actually her preferred BT - so we kept it there! The other wakings that could be OT is when they 'crash' at BT but then do a short night, typically less than 10.5h. Sometimes if the night is very short they'll get back to sleep again eventually, so a waking around 4-5am (with or without resettling) could still be an indicator of OT. But yes, UT wakings tend to be characterised by cot parties, or else EWs where LO is happy and remains happy throughout the morning, not showing more tired signs than usual. This is just from my experience and those of others I've known - of course every LO is an individual and you will know yours best

Sorry to ask again - would you like your GS thread locked, so you can have everything in one place here? If so, would you like us to bring your GS post over here to merge with this thread, or just leave it?

[albers30]

Sure you can combine the two threads into this one.  Thanks, we'll give this routine a bit and see what happens.  It's just so tough trying to find a routine that works for her and the twins and be consistent with so many variables.

[albers30]

And yes, I'd say she's a spirited baby.  She's got a lot of attitude but has to to keep up with her sisters.

[trimbler]

Ok I'll see what I can do about the other post in GS, in the meantime hope you start seeing some improvements with the new routine. I know it's so hard fitting everything around older LOs!

[trimbler]

Ok so here's what you wrote on GS - perhaps I'll work out how to do this properly some day...

Here is our current schedule, although its a loose schedule as I have 3 year old twins too so there's a lot of uncontrollable variables in a day.

Wake between 7-30
Activity
Eat
Activity
Asleep for 1st nap around 10 (this varies give or take 30 minutes or so depending on the twins activities) Wakes from nap anywhere from 30 minutes to 1 1/2 hours later
Activity
Eat
Asleep for 2nd nap around 1 unless she took a long morning nap then it might be a little later, wakes from nap 1-3 hours later, generally its a 2-3 hour nap
Activity
Eat
Activity
Cat nap between 5 and 5 30 depending on when she wakes from 2nd nap, can skip cat nap depending on other variables in the day.
Start bedtime at 7, generally asleep at 730, if cat nap can sometimes be 8

So daytime sleep isn't too bad although occasionally she has days when she just won't nap, not sure how to handle this and try and get her the sleep she needs. Thoughts?

Second question.  She has been waking at 1230-1 am for a feed then 430-5 am just for cuddles usually she settles easy with a bottle at the first waking and coming to bed with me at the second or another bottle but she started to be more difficult to settle at these times and I'm getting the feeling they are more habit then feeding necessity (She's 90th% height and weight).  How do I help her over come these night wakings and give up that feed.  I feel like she should be getting a longer stretch of sleep at this point.  She generally gets put down drowsy and pat/shush to sleep but she's started to fight sleep more and isn't so easily settled as she used to be.  How can I help my little girl sleep better?

[albers30]

OK, so I'm getting desperate.  The more we try to help her sleep the worse it has gotten. 

For several days our schedule was
Wake 7am
Nap 10-11ish
Activity
Nap 2-4ish
Bedtime 7
NW at Midnight settled back to sleep but generally took a little while NW 2 am fed but wouldn't settle til about an hour later when we finally brought her to be

She has a sitter on Monday and Wednesday when I work and she's terrible about keeping a schedule and half the time I don't believe what she tells me occurred.  According to her Monday schedule was

Wake 7am
Nap 10-Noon
Activity
Nap 1245-330
Activity
Nap 430-5
Bedtime was a struggle, went down about 730
Up basically every 30-60 minutes all nights.  Sometime easily settled, was fed once, I tried sleeping in her crib with her to get her to settle there and not come to bed with us.  Eventually came to bed with us and played for awhile and finally drifted off to sleep

Tuesday

Wake 7am
Nap 930-10
Activity
Nap 1-4
Activity
Bedtime 7

NW Midnight couldn't get her to settle til about 2 wasn't happy but wasn't angry.  Attempted again to lay with her in her crib to help her settle which 2 hours later she finally did.  Up again at 3 ate and came to bed with us.  Slept til 745am

Wednesday
Wake 745am
Activity
Nap 10-11:15
Activity
Nap 1-330
Activity
Tried to put her down at 6 but fought it til she finally went down at 715
Up at 1145 ate and back to sleep for an hour them pretty much up for the rest of the night with short sleep sessions from 30-45 minutes with one stretch finally from 430-630am.  Most of this time she was just angry screaming and fighting anything we tried to do.

I haven't gotten more then a few hours sleep a night for a week now as our older two have been having some sleep issues with all the commotion from Violet so when I'm not trying to get her to sleep I'm trying to settle them back down.  I'd give anything to go back to the 2 consistent wakings we were having with our old schedule at this point.  Even though that had been a consistent schedule for over 2 months everyone kept telling me she was over tired but ever since we've tried to change that she's gotten more over tired because now she's not napping consistently or sleeping well at night.  I don't think at this point we can go back but I don't know where to go from here.  She's a happy playful baby during the day, you'd never guess she wasn't sleeping at night but she's got to be overtired so I don't know at night whether we're dealing with over tiredness or sleep training issues so I don't know how to address the night wakings anymore but I'm getting frustrated so I've got to figure some kind of plan out.  Ideas???

[trimbler]

Monday?? Seriously?? Just two periods of 45min then 1h A time the whole time the sitter was there? So either she was just really tired and crashed out all day, and that's why the following night she was up all night - or the sitter just didn't record what actually happened? Frustrating if you don't know which it is... Looking at Wednesday too, I don't think her A times were long enough then either, although much better than Monday - both those nights after the sitter sound UT to me. But I'm sure you've talked to her about all this already?

That daily routine you posted at the top of your last post sounds pretty good really, but I can't help wondering whether she might be getting hungry around midnight? All that trouble settling back off to sleep and waking to feed not long after? Or do you think we can definitely rule that out? How's her eating/feeding during the day? (((Hugs)))

[albers30]

I talk to her and it doesn't seem to make a difference and we have the same conversation the next time.  I'm very frustrated with her, in other ways too, but we don't have any other options for childcare for Violet on the days I work right now.  She does't eat very well for the sitter either, on days my husband or myself are home she eats pretty well but its reasonable to think she still needs/wants one more feed a day.  I just thought about it and the midnight feed actually makes sense.  She used to wake at 1 am to eat but thats when she went to bed at 8, now that she's going down at 7 makes sense she's want to eat an hour earlier I guess.  The top routine seemed to be working pretty well overall.  She was definitely tired by the 2 pm nap time and bedtime so I worried maybe she was getting a little overtired but nothing terrible so if you think that's reasonable it makes me feel better about it.

[trimbler]

Yes I wouldn't worry about her being tired for her second nap and then getting a lovely long one I'd be concerned if it was a short OT one, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If you're worried she was OT by BT on that routine you could put her down a little earlier, hard to tell really as she doesn't do the classic OT thing of waking early in the evening, or even having a long nw around 3h after BT (which is what my DD did for a long while). Let me know how it goes feeding around midnight, see if it helps things later in the night. Any idea whether she might get uncomfortable after night feeds - gas or reflux, for example? Please could you post her daytime feeding routine? Perhaps we can fit another feed in there somewhere??

How frustrating about the sitter not sure what to suggest other than keeping on at her, explain what a difference it makes to her nights when she's had too much daytime sleep.

[albers30]

Wanted to get back to you sooner but its been a little crazy and I wanted to see if trying to have a little more routing during the day might make a difference but it hasn't.  For the past week the schedule has been pretty routine in one of two schedules which I'll list. 

Wake between 6 and 7am
Nap 10-1
Activity
Nap 4-430
Bedtime between 7 and 730
Wake between 11 and 12 might resettle right away with a bottle, might not
Wake 2am restless until 4am  takes a bottle initially and goes right back to sleep for 30 minutes then up again

or

Wake between 6 and 7am
Nap 10-1030 or 11
Activity
Nap between 1 and 130 to 330 or 430
Activity
Bedtime around 7 give or take 20 minutes
Wake between 11 and 12,might resettle with a bottle quickly might not
Wake 2-4 restless, generally takes a bottle and might immediately go back to sleep but generally up again in 30 minutes

With the 2-4 wakings she's then been getting up closer to 6 instead of 7 now which is not helping.

Yesterday her schedule was

Wake 7am (bad night the night before due to weird schedule with sitter)
Nap 10:15-11
Activity
Nap 1:30-3:30
Activity
Tried to put her down at 630 but she fought it until about 7:15
Up at 10:30 resettled easilty
Up again at 11:15 took a bottle and resettled about 11:45
Slept till 5am took a bottle but didn't resettle until about 6am and slep then til 730

At night I've been keeping her in her bed and either patting shushing to settle, laying with her in her crib, or laying beside her with a hand in the crib on her.  She settles the quickest and most contently if I lay with her but even this still takes a while.  All of her wakings are non-stop crying varying from all out scream to just kind of a whiney cry as I call it.  As for her daytime feedings she's not a great consistent eater.  She might take 2-3 ounces when she wakes then 6 or so before her first nap depending on the length of the nap she might take a few ounces when wakes then maybe 4-6 before second nap.  She generally takes 3-6 ounces after second nap depending on lenght and feeing amount before and then generally 6-8 ounces at bedtime.  Somedays she'll hardly eat others she'll take 8 ounces everytime you give her the bottle.  Feeding has been difficult with her from the start though, she was never a good nurser (too much commotion and activity around I think always distracted) and she went on a nursing strike when I went back to work at 3 months.  I pumped and bottle fed for several more months as she would never go back to the breast after that but then I got mastitis a second time and called it quits. 

Any more thoughts or ideas on her sleep are greatly appreciated.  I'm really struggling with is it my fault and she's over tired and that's why she's sleeping poorly or is it that I need to get tougher on her and do some sleep training. With the other two who've developed their own sleep issues now since she's up so much I've got to get her sleeping better somehow as my gas tank is really running on empty.  Willing to try anyting.  Also, we've got a family trip coming up in April and 5 nights in a hotel with all 3 girls if she's not sleeping better is going to be a nightmare.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) so frustrating! You know, I can't help thinking that she needs less daytime sleep, and less sleep overall, than she's currently getting? Looking at the last routine you posted (Saturday?), it seems like a short morning nap followed by a 2h pm nap resulted in a better night? I'd consider trying something similar again, ie a 3-3.5h A time followed by 30-45min nap, then a 2.5-3h A time (closer to 3 if a 45min morning nap, I think I'd try this first), aiming for a 2h pm nap. Then 4h A to BT - to ensure she's really properly tired. I just feel that she's been having this poor night sleep and then making up for it during the day, but unfortunately that creates a vicious cycle, as you've been experiencing Does that tally with your experience? I'm going to see if I can get more eyes on this too

[albers30]

Ok so yesterday here was her schedule
Wake 7am
Activity
Nap 10-11
Activity
Nap 2-3
Activity
Bedtime 715
Stirred a little at 10pm but resettled with a pat
Stirred again at 1am but resettled herself
Up at 215am took a bottle but didn't seem to really need it resettled at 3am after patting shushing or just laying by crib with my hand on her
Woke again at 320 and screamed no matter what I did until 4am back up at 425 but resettled quickly up for day at 630am happy as could be.

What do you think?

[trimbler]

Ooh difficult to say but at least it wasn't a 2h NW, right? Could have been a little OT perhaps, with a 4h15min A time after just a 1h nap, wdyt? I wonder if capping that morning nap a little further could help with lengthening the pm nap so that she can manage that longer A to BT without getting OT? Something like...

Wake between 6-7 but don't get her up until closer to 7am
Nap 10-10:45
Nap 1:45-3:45 (if you're lucky!)
BT 7:30ish (earlier or later depending on how long the pm nap was)

[albers30]

Actually the night waking a few nights ago that you mentioned as being better really was not.  I was still basically up with her from 2-4 helping her settle as every time she wakes at night its been a long process to get her back to sleep and then the periods of sleep are quite short before she wakes again.Anyway, I need some more advice as last night was a bit unusual compared to most lately. 

Schedule
wake 7
activity
nap 10-1030
activity
nap 100-230
activity
bedtime 640

She then woke at 720, I think due to noise from her sisters as it was so early when she went to bed they were still quite rowdy.  From here it proceeded to go as our normal night waking often goes only I had to get the other two to bed so I couldn't just hang out in her room with her. She was difficult to resettle so basically for the next 2 hours about every 5-10 minutes I'd pop back into her room and do whatever I needed to do to quiet her, i.e. pat shush pick up etc.  I'd have her quieted down and nearly asleep or so I thought then a few minutes after leaving the room she'd start in again.  I'd do a few more things with the girls then pop back in and do it all again.  Finally at 920 she went to sleep and stayed asleep. She woke at 130 but resettled with about 10 minutes of patting then woke again just before 6 am and resettled in less then a minute with a pat.  Woke for the day at 730am.  This led me to believe that perhaps a big part of her problem is settling herself without me being right there with her since we've done so much co-sleeping. Aside from the pat, shush PUPD, what are some other techniques I can use to help her settle as those have not worked all that well so far.  Thoughts?

[trimbler]

Oh ok sorry I see what you mean about that nw, hadn't spotted that she only slept 20mins in between - with your hand on her? Still thinking OT...

Tricky to know what really happened yesterday evening, especially with the noise of her sisters and I imagine she could hear their bedtime routines going on and that disturbed her too? Did she wake herself after 30mins of her morning nap, or did you wake her? I'd be inclined to try for 45mins instead, with a longer A time afterwards, just to get the day later so that the older ones don't wake her again...

As for other methods of settling...hard to say since she does seem to respond to patting etc sometimes, right? When she has the long NWs where you stay with her the whole time (rather than going in and out as yesterday evneing when you had the older ones to put to bed), what exactly do you do? What do you feel she needs? If you think she'd settle more quickly if you had your hand on her the whole time, for example, you could just do that to start with, and then gradually reduce the pressure, move towards just being near her or holding her hand (ideally from above, so that you can easily remove it), to sitting or lying next to her cot and shh-ing where necessary, to sitting/lying further away... I'm not totally convinced she needs this though, given that at other times she seems to settle quite quickly with minimal intervention? It could still be more schedule related...