Night waking/feeding question

[albers30]

First, I hardly ever wake her from naps because she is super cranky if I do so all of those nap times are her choosing.  I really don't think its OT anymore.  She's had a pretty consistent schedule for days now and has been going down well for naps and bedtime never acting OT before and she hasn't had any of the frequent waking issues shortly after bedtime that she generally has when she's OT.  When we were trying to put her down with longer naps and only 3 hours of activity before bedtime she was fighting us really hard and that has stopped with the extended activity time before bed. Since she's been born she's always had more activity time between naps/bedtime then what is normal for her age and when she's overtired its generally pretty obvious because she's a pretty happy kid otherwise.  Her middle of the night wakings haven't been like they used to be either when we were fighting the OT/UT question.  Those she just cries and is generally unconsolable, except for taking a bottle, until you either let her get up and play or she wears herself out. With these wakings she hasn't had interest in a feed and is quickly settled by my presence but the minute I try and back away from her at all, even when I think she's sound asleep she starts crying but is quickly comforted if I immediately return to soothe her.  Of course the longer this drags out of me going back and forth soothing her then backing away then soothing her the more angry her cries get and the longer it takes to settle her til we get to the point where she's either worn herself out or I have to pick her up and do the whole bounce pat shush thing for a while or lay down with her.  Since she was born she's co-slept with me almost every night at some point so I think its breaking this habit that we're faced with now.  Thoughts? 

[trimbler]

Yes that sounds very convincing to me! Can't post the link right now but will send it to you later, there's one on gradual withdrawal which I think you might find useful?

Back - here it is: Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

[albers30]

Ok, so I'm just at wits end on what to do.  I haven't slept more then 1-2 hours in a row and max 4-5 hours of sleep a night in over a month now which is starting to wear on me with caring for the twins and my patients at work too.  I've tried the technique you gave the link for as that's what we used with the girls along with all the other techniques discussed thus far and we don't seem to be making any progress.  We've tried every schedule possible as well without any results.  We had two days in a row with the schedule you last discussed with the 30-45 minute nap in the morning and 2 hour nap in the afternoon and she was just restless all night.  Yesterday she had similar naps except just an hour and a half in the afternoon.  Was happy and playful as could be all afternoon even at the 4 hour mark at 7pm.  She had no interest in going to bed and fought every effort.  Still happy and giggling at 8pm I finally put her in her crib told her goodnight and walked out. She played for about 10 minutes and drifted off to sleep. Woke at 145am resettled quickly with a pat then again at 345 am resettled quickly with a pat but then woke shortly after I left the room.  I didn't return right away to see if she'd resettle on her own.  It quickly escalated to an hour and half of screaming unless I was cradling her and rocking her.  Every time I tried to put her down the screaming immediately came back.  So she's been tired and cranky all day today even with her normal naps so I'm sure I'm in for a doozy of a night tonight.  What else can I do?  Is it just the separation anxiety or do you still think something different can be done wither her schedule?  I can't imagine she's that super sensitive all of a sudden since she wasn't as a baby but I just don't know what else to try.

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))). Sleep deprivation is tough.

I'm here to provide some fresh eyes. I had success with set nap times and thought maybe that might help in your case. I haven't read through the whole thread so before I make any recommendations can you tell me how old your LO is now and do you feed at all at night?

[albers30]

Just turned 7 months and no, she weaned off the the night feed a little over a week ago.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) I'm continuing to follow along but will take a back seat for a while, you're in good hands

[lily_layne]

Has weaning the NF helped?

At 7 months, this is the routine my DS was on:
WU: 7
S: 9:30-11
S: 1:30/1:45-3
BT: 6:45/7
Usually 1 NF. There were lots of nights when he woke chatting. If I left him, he took 1-2 hrs to settle. If I fed him straight off, he was back to sleep within the hour. We still get the odd long NWing (about 1-2/month) but I tend to attribute those to developmental leaps. I just try to intervene as little as possible.

I know the routine I posted is a bit different from many you'll see on here because of the longer last A. I started using set naps when DS dropped the CN because it made everything less stressful for me. I got the routine from another BWer and thought I'd give it a go and it worked beautifully. I think the long last A was really helpful in reducing NWs.

Have you been able to try WI/WO?

[albers30]

Our current schedule is very similar except she only generally naps 30-45 minutes is the am 10/1030-1030/11ish, but its been that way since she was born since we're on the go so much in the mornings she's doesn't get the chance often for a long morning nap.  The rest of her schedule is pretty similar to yours except its generally 7/730 bt.  She used to make up for the short am nap with a long second nap like 3 hours, now we're lucky to get 1.5 hours on the second nap.  The 4 hour Activity before bed does make a big difference.  Unfortunately the night wakings when they occur are either she's up every hour and has to be helped to re-settle which takes 10-15 minutes or she has a 2 hour screaming fit in which nothing consoles her.  We used to get the party time NW but that rarely happens anymore.  I've found the NW are much worse on days I work and she's home with the sitter.  Not sure if the sitter is lying to us about nap times or if she just isn't active enough with her when she's awake or it its just purely heightened separation anxiety because I've been gone during the day.  Other nights lately its been better with just a couple of NW that last 10-15 minutes which I guess could be just normal at this age?  I've tried every technique and aside from constant contact the waking just escalates in screaming until she's unconsolable.

[lily_layne]

It does sound like it could be separation anxiety. Being with a sitter is a big change. My DD had some tough NWs when she started daycare.

Have you tried just laying a hand on her and verbally reassuring her while she cries and not picking her up? I know it's hard to listen to the crying but she will know you're there. Crying can be a stress release for LOs and the change with you going to work is stressful for her. She may just need a chance to release her feelings knowing you're with her.

[albers30]

That's pretty much all I ever do because picking her up just makes her more angry generally thats why PUPD hasn't really been an option for her. That's why I keep thinking things have got to get better for her but they never really do. She's fought sleep from the day she was born though so maybe it's just her. I have to say I'm starting to miss the days where she was a nightmare to put to sleep but once you got her down she would basically sleep thru the night. I feel like there's got to be something I can do to help her sleep better at night because I know she wants to and needs to.

[albers30]

Just FYI she's had this same sitter twice a week since she was not quite 3 months old so it's not a new change. That being said she's not a great sitter so I don't trust that the nap information she gives me is accurate and I know Violet is not nearly as active with her as she is with us.

[lily_layne]

Oh sorry. I had assumed the sitter was new. That's tough that she doesn't give you reliable information. That makes it really hard for you to figure out BT.

How long will she cry if you just rest your hand on her back?

[albers30]

Her crying spells last 1 1/2 to 2 hours and that's no matter what I do so that's why I started just laying or sitting next to her crib with my hand on her. She'll settle down for a few minutes periodically but then works herself back up especially if I move away in any way. Those times and bedtime is when I've done the WIWO and she can be pretty much asleep and before I can get out the door even she's crying again. Maybe I should wait to go back to her til it's a full blown very angry cry but then it's often so hard to settle her down at all after that. The 2 hour cry sessions multiple times a week are really starting to wear on me physically and emotionally. She generally has several Short waking a prior to that so I get no sleep on those nights and other nights she'll have 2-3 15/20 minute just restless wakings that limit sleep significantly so I'm exhausted and you can tell and my patience is wearing because o feel like there's no end in site because I have no other ideas what to do. Feel like we've tried every schedule and coping technique out there.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) whilst Lily is giving you her 'fresh eyes' I just wondered if there's any way you can get a break during the night? I mean, could someone else take over for a few hours so you can get some sleep in another room, or even better, for a whole night once in a while? My DH is really good at this, since DD is still in our room, he'll let me sleep in the living room sometimes and take care of DD with her NWs (teething for what seems like forever!) - he somehow manages to get back to sleep pretty much immediately, whereas I would tend to stay awake turning everything over in my mind, or just listening out to see whether DD is settling. This sleep deprivation is really taking its toll on you, I know what that's like as I don't cope well without sleep!

[lily_layne]

I think Trimbler's suggestion is a good one.