Night waking/feeding question

[albers30]

Ok, so its been a little while but I wanted to give an update and ask for a little more advice.  So we got over the illness and caught up on her sleep and have had a pretty routine schedule.

Wake 7-715 am
Activity
Nap between 10 and 1030 generally for 30-45 minutes
Activity
Nap between 130 and 2 depending on 1st nap generally for around an hour and a half
Activity
Bedtime between 7 and 730

She is happy during the day the day with this schedule goes down well for naps and never really acts over/under tired.  Here is what it has lead to with our nights though.  She either wakes at 11pm and has a 10-20 minute fussy period then takes a 6ounce bottle fusses a little bit more then drifts off to sleep til 5 or 6 am at which time I bring her to our bed where she goes right back to sleep and sleeps til 7/715 whenever the other girls get up. If she doesn't do the 11pm wake up she sleeps til 2 takes a 6 ounce bottle and is right back to sleep sometimes then wakes at 5 or 6 and comes to our bed or may sleep til 7/730.  I guess she must still need the night feed because if she doesn't get it its a 2 hour scream fest which I guess was the issue before and one she wasn't going to get over.  I've tried changing up her daytime routine to make sure she didn't associate taking a bottle with going to sleep and to try and increase her amount of formula during the day which hasn't made a difference.  Although no matter what I try and can't seem to get her to take any more during the day.  She's always been very adamant about when she's hungry and when she's not.  Sometimes theres a few wake ups prior to the 11pm wake up that are easily settled with a pat on the back.  I've never tried just feeding her the bottle off the bat at 11 pm because I feel like after an 8 to 10 ounce bottle just before bedtime she shouldn't be that hungry since she can sleep til 2 other nights but maybe that's the 11 o'clock issue.  She rarely acts OT at bedtime.  She's generally still happily playing quietly in her room or reading books with us up until she starts to get a little disinterested then we put her to bed.  Any thoughts on the NW and things we should or shouldn't be doing.

[lily_layne]

It does sound like she needs the NF still. Both of my LOs were having one night feed at that age - it's pretty common. At 11, I would try patting a bit and if it's not working, I would just feed.

What's she eating for solids during the day?

[trimbler]

Hey there, so good to hear that things are generally working better for you all now and that she seems happy and well rested Hope you are feeling better rested too?

Agree with Lily on the NF, really quite common to still be having one at her age. The timings of the NWs also feel very familiar to me, sorry can't remember if I said before, but the 11pm one is probably when she transitions from the deep sleep at the beginning of the night into her first cycle of lighter sleep - mine have certainly both struggled with that one, actually at that age I just 'cheated' and did a 'dream feed' then, sometimes I picked them up to feed whilst still pretty much asleep, other times they woke and I just fed them straight away. Tracy describes a nice method of weaning from the dream feed in one of her books, there's probably a link on here too which we can look out when the time comes, but I don't think that's yet. I just wanted to reassure you that you can just feed at that one if you want, and it is possible to wean them off that later on. Or of course, you could decide to resettle that time without feeding, knowing that you'll have another feed later in the night, but that she may then manage to sleep later in the morning. Coming on to the 5/6am waking - LOs apparently have their lightest sleep towards the end of the night, and then ideally, can then go back to deep sleep for another hour or so, although in practice that often won't happen - mine have certainly struggled with that transition too. Both of these NWs can be more of a struggle if they're in any sort of discomfort (teething, hunger, congestion, gas, etc) or OT, but they may also just be developmental. My DD for example will often still wake then, sometimes it's obviously teething or something and she needs comfort/meds, but other times she just rolls over and goes straight back to sleep, but she's got better at that as she's grown.

[albers30]

Ok, that makes me feel better about things with the 11 and sometimes 2 am waking/feed.  That early morning waking is a tough one for me as she is difficult to resettle then and if I do get her to resettle in her bed she's back up again in an hour whereas if I bring her to be with me she'll sleep til 7 or later and I get some much needed extra zzz's.  I don't mind bringing her to bed except with the twins this was a very tough habit to break and she's even more stubborn and its also tough sometimes having her in bed depending on what's going on with the other two or if either of us are on call and getting phone calls ect. She also has occasional times where she just has a meltdown for no apparent reason.  It can be shortly after bed around 11 or later in the night and she just screams and nothing I seem to do helps and she carries on like this for an hour or more.  I feel terrible that there's no way for me to settle her down and just wanted to get some other thoughts on why this is happening.  She can also be tough to read on getting tired sometimes and tough to get to sleep if there's any action going on she doesn't want to miss out on.  Any ideas on how to help her settle better in these situations?  Most the time its not an issue but we're getting ready to travel with the whole family and I think this may be more of an issue then.

[albers30]

I also meant to add in that she is big on eating solids and i mean real solids she pretty much refused any baby food.  She eats a good breakfast lunch and dinner and generally a couple snacks with her sister too.  I think that's why she doesn't take as much from the bottle during the day and maybe needs it as night then.  I've tried feeding the bottle before meals but she basically refuses like she's holding out for the real stuff. 

[trimbler]

With the bringing into bed - of course it's not 'BW' and I'm sure you know the SIDS guidance, but it's completely up to you to decide how you want to proceed - I see you're torn between concern about breaking the habit later, being on call and on the other hand it getting you all some more much-needed sleep. But I think you probably need to have a good discussion with DH about that and make a decision and try to stick with it - sure you can make exceptions but she might just find it confusing being taken into your bed some nights and not others... I'm afraid I can't promise any magic for resettling in the cot at that time in the morning, I think we're all plagued by EW at some time or another so just let me know if that's something you want to work on now, or if you decide to just bring her into bed for now and work on it later, after your travels, perhaps?

As for the hour long screaming, I honestly have blocked that out of my mind with DS, if he did it at all (perhaps on occasion when teething/ill), but DD has certainly been known to do that. For her it's usually been a combination of OT and discomfort, usually teething, or more recently, thirst (which I was a bit slow to realise ). Having mentioned thirst, I wonder whether your LO has been getting enough fluids during the day, if she's really keen on solids and then perhaps not getting so much milk. I'm afraid I'm a bit hazy at this age, whether to suggest offering water first at night, but my gut feeling is perhaps try offering water a bit more during the day, especially alongside solids - not to replace milk, but to increase her fluid intake, if you think that might be an issue? Then I'd probably still want to be offering milk at night, at this age. Other than that, are the any signs of discomfort of any sort?

Your routine looks pretty solid to me, but could you post a recent day when she's had the long NW screaming?

[albers30]

I think we'll stick to bringing her to bed for now.  Work out the other kinks first and get thru the travel and then maybe try to break that habit.  She's also got a lot going on right now so I know that's part of the issue, teething, really rolling over pulling up trying to walk, sometimes I wander if its not tummy trouble from over doing it on the solids and/or not getting enough fluid so I'll probably try the offering more to drink.  I've tried introducing the sippy cup at meals with water and we're making progress with that.  As for the screaming sessions generally I think its probably because she didn't nap as well as usual, she was with the sitter, or there was a lot of action that day not that any day is ever quiet in our house.  I just wish I knew how to help her settle better in those situations to avoid over stimulation/OT but she's just very go go go and has to be in the middle of it all and my efforts always fail. 

[lily_layne]

As for the screaming sessions generally I think its probably because she didn't nap as well as usual, she was with the sitter, or there was a lot of action that day not that any day is ever quiet in our house.

Sometimes there's just nothing you can do if your LO likes to be in on the action. My DD was easily overstimulated and often screaming was her only way of settling herself down. I vividly remember her screaming for an hour after her baby shower and nothing I did seemed to help. Screaming helps babies release built up stress and it can actually be calming for them (not so much for us ). It's their way of creating a white noise that blocks everything else out.

[albers30]

Thanks!  That makes sense and makes me feel better about things.

[lily_layne]

Glad it helped. If you're feeling bothered by it again, I have many more stories about DD screaming that I can share. She is now a very well-adjusted 3 year old who will voluntarily go sit in a dark room when she's overwhelmed (so much better than screaming). The scream-fests have not hurt her at all.

[albers30]

I wasn't so much worried about them hurting her, clearly by her behavior they weren't I just needed to hear this was normal and make sure there wasn't something I was missing that she needed.  My twins were not like this at all, nor any one else's kids that I know, so its just really thrown me for a loop. 

[lily_layne]

Have you read or heard of the Highly Sensitive Child? She may be on the sensitive side and thus, easily wound up and overstimulated.

[albers30]

I have not, never heard of it.  Where can I find it?

Update.  For some reason she's started having trouble going to bed now and then waking up every hour from there until I give up out of need for sleep and bring her to bed with me.  She settles after a few minutes of me patting her most times.  The first couple of nights I blamed it on teething as she acted like they were really bothering her and she felt a little warm but now night number 3 I'm not so sure thats still what it is or if now its a bad habit.  Just when I think we've got things figured out and headed in the right direction, there's another kink.

[lily_layne]

Just when I think we've got things figured out and headed in the right direction, there's another kink.

Those babies never let us rest on our laurels. In fact, there's a chapter in Tracy's book BWSAYP about exactly that.

You can probably find the Highly Sensitive Child on Amazon or at a library. I can't remember the authors name.

Does she stay asleep once she's in bed with you? If she is, I think it may be a habit issue.

[albers30]

Just wanted to update and reach out for additional advice.  My last post must have just been her teething or cold or something because it just lasted for a few days then went back to her normal routine which remains

Wake 7am
Activity
Nap 10ish (30-60 minutes)
Activity
Nap 1:30-2 depending on wake time from prior nap (1-2 hours)
Activity
Bedtime 7-730
Wake 3am Feed and right back to sleep
Wake 5am comes to bed with us til wake up at 7

She's still teething and really trying to pull up and walk on her own so she's definitely in activity overdrive trying to perfect her skills so maybe thats all the recent issues are, or I think there's generally a growth spurt around 9 months which we are approaching which could factor as well but currently my biggest challenges are no matter how perfectly she goes to bed at bedtime, no signs of over tiredness at all, she continues to wake every 30-60 minutes over the next several hours most nights.  She resettles fairly easily with patting but it gets frustrating when trying to get the other two to bed too.  Another issue is while she had been going down very well for her naps the past 3-5 days she's been fighting going down at her regular nap times, especially her first nap at 10am.  The other factor is she fights to go down at 10am but once she goes down she's now napping 1 1/2 - 2 hours so then I push back the 2nd nap a little which has now become a 30-45 minute nap.  Surely she's not trying to drop to one nap yet right?  She's always been a little ahead of the curve with her sleep needs but that seems way early, is it just the milestone stuff messing with things?