Starting GW at breaking point 😩

[evwright]

Hi, sorry this is so long, we've got ourselves thoroughly tangled in nws, AP and props...

I've been here before for advice on teaching independent sleep as we are still walking/rocking our now 19 month old spirited/touchy ds to sleep. First time round at 13 months we ended up doing 2 to 1 instead as our days were getting too long, but he was sttn then so we know he must have been able to re-settle himself at that point. Since then we wanted to try again, especially as we started having very long nws in the middle of the night, but then we hit 18 months, terrible colds and teething We think we are now in a position to start, although teething is on and off. While ill we had very long nws and had to resort to overnight tv sessions and co-sleeping just to survive. He is now going back to sleep fairly quickly, but waking multiple times and after the first couple of times we cannot get him back into his cot so he is sleeping the rest of the night in our bed. We are exhausted from lack of sleep and carrying him (and I have a chronic muscle condition that causes pain and fatigue) and things have to change. For nws we go in when he gets upset and walk/rock him back to sleep.

We've read the stickies and lots of threads to see what might work best for us. We chose gw as he has never settled independently and we think he would lose the plot big time if we leave the room. However we know that it is too stimulating for some spirited so is there any way to recognize if this is the case without going the full 2 weeks to let a new routine sink in?


A typical day's schedule now looks like this (it has slipped later with him being ill and sleeping in).
WU 8-8.30am
Nap around 1.30 to 2pm usually for 2 hours - we often have to wake him as we are worried about robbing from night sleep, but with losing so much sleep at night should we let him wake when he wants?.
BT 9.30-10pm (asleep in cot after being walked)

Typically he has been waking the first time 3hrs after bt, however this has been at 1.5hrs the last few nights. Last night he woke after a little over an hour and went to sleep again quickly. He then woke again at 2.30am and settled back to sleep in arms quickly, but came into bed.

For his nap he typically falls asleep in 5 to 10 minutes. Unfortunately bt can take up to 45min, although the last few nights have been about 20min. Is it normal to take much longer at bt or could this be a scheduling issue?

A few questions about actually implementing gw.

Is it ok to do gw without one of us sleeping in his room? It really is tiny and his cot is next to the door so we are thinking we may have to leave the door open to be able to move away from the cot at all.

If he stands up and simply won't lie down should we lie him down?

His room has never been dark - he has a small light and he falls asleep listening to music. Should we keep things the same or make any other changes to his sleeping environment?

If he gets really upset should we offer cuddles while not removing him from the cot and then withdraw again as he gets calm?

Is it ok for both of us to take turns or does it really need to be just one of us at the start?


TIA for any advice and hand-holding. I fear this is going to be a long and difficult process.

Rhiannon

[evwright]

I just don't know what to do today. LO had his nap disturbed yesterday, but we managed to get him back to sleep. We tried for a slightly early bt, but it just seemed to all go wrong. He just couldn't/wouldn't settle and he took over 45 min to go to sleep. Woke after just over an hour and took nearly another hour before we could get him transferred back into the cot. We gave meds with supper as he is teething and he didn't seem to be in pain.

He has now been awake since 4.45am  DH tried desperately to get him back to sleep, but he decided he was up for the day. He has had less than 7 hours sleep and that includes the nw! Our 1 nap would usually be about 1.30pm, he hasn't done 2 for 6 months and at the moment he is happily bouncing along. So I'm thinking try for early nap and let him sleep until usual wu time then try again for an ebt? We haven't had many ews (and especially not this early) so not sure how to deal with it.

One more question about sleep training - I know at bt we just keep going, but if he fights at nap time how long do we go for until we call it quits on the nap and try for ebt instead? Or is there something else we should do?

Any advice really gratefully sought
Rhiannon

[weaver]

Rhiannon, how are you getting on? What a crazy day.  I'm sorry I don't have much time right now but I would have said see if you can get him to do a catnap and then a longer nap around his usual time. 

As for GW,  you can make that as gradual as you need to. You can literally sit on the floor beside his cot, start from there rather than trying to walk out when he's awake.  My LOs both had dark rooms and no music, I know lights would keep me awake! But you need to evaluate what effect, if any, they have on your LO.  If you think the music is a good sleep cue, then stick with it. 

I would not let him sleep as long as he wants at naptime.  He needs to consistently get a similar amount of sleep for long enough for him to make a new pattern of sleeping at night. You want that extra sleep time at night time not in the day, so try to avoid monster naps.  (Today might be tough for that, but sometimes a wacky day becomes a reset.)  Some LOs have a 'witching hour' past which they should not sleep or it really messes up BT.  3.30pm is a common one, depends on time of BT of course.

On the day you decide to start in earnest, try to get him up at a set time, nap at a reliable time, bed at a certain time.  Aiming for around the same time every day will be easier for you to remember and for him to learn.

[evwright]

Hi, thanks so much for the reply. In the end we did an early lunch and he went to sleep at 12.30. I'm going to wake him at 3.15 so it should still let us aim for a slightly ebt tonight. In general we have been capping his nap at 2 hours in hopes of his night sleep improving. When he did sttn we tended to get 11hrs, but that was a while ago...  We will see what happens tonight as to whether we have the energy to begin tomorrow. I know that when we start gw at bedtime it is just see things through. For naps, if he resists utterly how long do we carry on for before either trying later or giving up on the nap for that day? I seem to remember seeing 45 min somewhere, but that may have been for much younger little people. We were going to do both nap and bt, but start at naptime as he settles so much easier than at bt. Does this seem sensible?

Thanks for the help, we're really exhausted and a fresh pair of eyes and experience is really appreciated x

[weaver]

If he absolutely refuses to nap, then my feeling would be that the nap's at the wrong time possibly UT?  I think 45 mins is really for little babies, yes. (Personally my limit was more like 5-10 minutes and then APoP - if crying is communication, then I'm thinking baby is telling me something is up and we can try to do it better next time).

For tonight, I would just sit with him until he falls asleep.  Reassure him, pat the cot to get him to sit down, don't engage too much, make sure you're comfortable!!! And see what happens.  You must all be shattered so don't expect too much of yourself today.

[evwright]

Hi, it may just be my sleep-deprived brain, but I'm confused by you saying to apop the nap after 5-10 minutes. Everything I've read seems to suggest that there is going to be a good deal of crying and that picking up and apop will undermine the process (though if he was utterly upset we would always pick up and comfort before trying again). He goes to sleep in arms for his nap very easily so hopefully that's the best time to start - I think we are all just too exhausted tonight.

[evwright]

So we managed to get a slightly ebt for us - into his cot asleep at 9.15 last night. He woke at 10 and fell asleep as soon as I picked him up, so that one was easy. Woke again at 11.30 and started yelling and then screaming when he saw daddy but then I took him and then cried himself back to sleep on me a few minutes later. Woke again at 4.15 and he and daddy both crawled into our bed asleep at 7! Up for the day at 8.30 so we'll see if anyone has enough energy to try gw today  We thought we'd knocked the long nws on the head, but they seem to have come back 

[weaver]

I'm confused by you saying to apop the nap after 5-10 minutes.

yes, sorry to be confusing, I was just talking about me and my small babies, it was not a recommendation to you

So he was awake from 4.15 til 7?  The 10pm WU sounds like OT - he did one sleep cycle (45 mins is around the average) and then woke up, and then went back, which is great.

Personally, I think I'd want to just pick a day and treat it as day one, don't try to figure out too much from what went before (it can be very confusing).  Just start one day and aim for a 'good day' that day.

[evwright]

We've had a couple more awful nights and now he has another cold so we'll just have to wait for that to clear and go from there. Do you think nws may be helped by the sleep training or should we try to address those first? He's had some where he was very upset and I can't imagine trying to calm him in the cot at all.

[evwright]

Hi, well we are finally over all the colds and have four first molars to show for January (please tell me that isn't a canine shaped bump I can see  ).

J started to have some better nights where he would wake fairly early, but be resettled quite easily and finish the night with a good stretch in his cot rather than our bed  however we now have a really odd situation where the last week he has alternated between STTN 10 - 11 hrs with huge nws. Last night dh was up with him from 12.40 until after 4! All he wanted was to be walked round in arms and he got upset every time dh sat down or tried to do anything else until he went downstairs for a bit.

The night before last he went to sleep at 9.30, woke at 8.25 and had his nap 1.30 - 3.30. Last night he went to sleep at 9.50 (we started walking him at 9 both evenings) he woke at 12.40 and it was past 4.00 before dh got him back to sleep. He woke at 9, nap today from 2.10 until 4 when we woke him to preserve bt. For naps he falls asleep in arms while we walk in 5 - 10 minutes after a mad bout of chatter and we wake at 2hrs if he doesn't rouse himself. At bt he takes 30 to 50 minutes to go to sleep (occasionally longer). He is usually quiet, but wriggly and seems to be trying to go to sleep but struggling.

We are getting ready to start gw now that he isn't ill, but are concerned that the long nws will make that really difficult and just wondered if there was anything else to consider first?

Also, when we start, because of his age (20 months now) should we rock then put him down sleepy to begin with or just put him down fully awake and start settling completely in the cot?

Thanks for any advice.

[evwright]

Well last night was awful again. He went to sleep at 9.30 and was settled in his cot just after that. He woke at 10.30 and I got him asleep and back in his cot in 15 minutes so that was fine. He woke again at 1am and dh couldn't get him back down in the cot so he came into our bed, but slept really fitfully until 6 when he asked to be walked. Dh got him to sleep, then as he went into cot found that his nappy had leaked everywhere, had to wake, turn on light to change so we had a really upset little boy  had a little more sleep then up for the day at 7.20.

Should we go for a slightly early nap and let him sleep a bit longer than his usual 2hrs to catch up and make sure he isn't ot? Just not sure what to do as the long nws have been robbing him of sleep, but we still can't work out if they are ot/ut or other.

Be really grateful to have any ideas.