Is it bad to stay in baby's room until he falls asleep?

[Belleinfidele]

We've always done it; sometimes we manage to leave and outside l hear him settle and fall asleep, but mostly we stay and then sneak out. It's just because he's always been a bad 'faller-asleep' so almost always there needs to be some PUPD or lately just PD (he is 10 months old and has been on EASY since 1 month). Usuallu to leave would mean to make him cry more... The reason l'm asking this is because lately he has become worse at falling asleep during naps with me, the mom, so l'm teying to figure out what l might be doing wrong. Have we been living under the misconception that we're doing everything right (teaching him to fall asleep) while actually encouraging some kind of separation anxiety or sth... ? Today he went crazy on me and cried for 45 min while l tried to put him asleep during second nap; l did PUPD, but then gave up.

Extra question: if baby is truly frantic, can you do PUPD? I have no problem tolerating 40 min of crying if l know it'll be rewarded, but the frantic cry is soemthing else, you can see he won't settle... So what do l do in these cases, stop it altogether and take him out of the room? Usually he calms down then, but of course is cranky as has missed his nap.

[Kellyjs]

Hi, I saw your other post where you said this is your routine, is this still the case?

Wakeup at 6:30 or 7 (if not teething, sleeps until 7)
Followed by BF (eats like a monster this first bf time, about 35 min)
Activity (hanging around in his room while l watch on)
9 solids, breakfast
Activity (independent play alternates with playing together)
10:30-11 nap (usually 40 min, but lately when Dad puts him down, 60 min)
12ish BF
Activity
1:30 pm lunch
Activity
3:30 pm nap
4:15 or 17 BF
7 pm dinner, solids
Followed by washing up, sometimes bath, then into sleeping wear, some BF, and off to bed.


I personally don't like sneaking out as you put it. The reason being I'm very much of the opinion I like things the same when I went to sleep to when I wake up so I've used that philosophy with DD. Its just my opinion though, you have to do what you feel works for your family.

Having said that, I don't think you've done the wrong thing whatsoever. You have taught him independent sleep and that's brilliant. The rest, if you like, we can work on from there. There are times when we do need to be with our LO's as that is what they need, especially if they are suffering from separation anxiety. Have you noticed anything like that during the day? I'll post a link for you to have a read through about that one.

I wonder if we should tweak your routine a little and that might help with falling asleep again for naps. Have you been working on these A times for a while? That first nap to me seems UT and that's ok actually at this age especially if he's not EW, but if he's resisting it, we can tweak it for you.

I'm going to post a link about the 2-1 for you too so you're prepared. Not saying he's ready for one nap at all, but starting the process and that explains it better than I can  . Then if you could post what yesterday or today looked like in real time for me, then we can take it from there. If you could include what time you tried for a nap and what you did (ie pu/pd), note his mood, then length of nap that'll be really helpful.

So pu/pd. Tbh, I didn't use it that much as it just made DD madder  . However, if she was particularly worked up (only in the day time), I would take her out of the room do some low-key A for 10 mins like read a book on my bed, then try again. I hope if we tweak the routine for you you shouldn't get this as much xx 

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Separation Anxiety

[Belleinfidele]

Hello and thanks for responding.
Yes, that's our schedule. I will note down the schedules for the past two days like you asked:

Sat
WA 6:30 and bf
8:30 solids, breakfast
Activity (approx 4,5 hrs including winddown time)
11-11:45 nap
Bf + Activity
13:30 solids, lunch
16 nap (longer, this time 75 min)
After 17 bf
19 solids, dinner
19:20 quick washup, into pyjamas, a little song and bedtime

Actually Sun was exactly the same. Well, to be honest, after that initial post ("l the mom can't put baby down for a nap anymore") and excluding the little regression l also made a post about (the 45 min PUPD Session to no avail), things have become better - l have read about 2-1 nap transition and separation anxiety (which he clearly has, as l now understand); so l've been extra attentive. Also, l've been keeping the first nap short like the 2-1 nap transition link explained.
But l think the true problem was something l realized myself as l pondered about his new sleeping problem with me: the thing is, there was a difference in how l put him down in the daytime and at night - at night l wound him down with a little bf time after washup, but at nap time he didn't have that. So now l give him bf at night before washup so he will go to sleep the same way. And it has helped.

But l am still curious about tweaking the routine as you say - do you think he should be up for longer than 4.5 hrs before the first nap? He is 10 months old. I'm afraid it will push meal times off course...

[Kellyjs]

The SA link has some really useful games to play during the day that should help. Just remaining consistent and telling him where you're going etc will definitely work in the long run.

You're doing brilliantly, honestly I don't think the problem is with you at all. Sometimes it just feels like it doesn't it? If you want to tweak the wind-down routine for the nap, by all means do it! Just try and not to BF to sleep ok? That might cause you more issues later on 

I wonder if that second nap might be an OT one actually. I want to experiment with it as some LO's like mine can do a full A time after a 45mins nap, but some can't. An hour 15mins nap could well be OT as I have found on here. The last nap is so close to BT I wonder if that's giving you some issues, especially as that's the longer nap. If it were the other way around and the 4pm nap was the CN, a 7pm BT would be ok I think.

COuld you try bringing the 2nd nap a little earlier? Perhaps to 3.30/45pm and see how that goes? That shouldn't interfere with your meals and BF too much I shouldn't think? xx

[Belleinfidele]

Spoke too soon - today was an epic fail again. I mean, I'm sure he was OT today, but still I don't understand why I am not able to calm him down anymore. He gets locked into his 'upsetness' and then it feels everything I do drives him even more over the edge: I do some PUPD; I stay by the bedside and talk soothingly or sing; I touch him soothingly, avoiding looking into his eyes. But he just keeps turning from side to side and screeching. Honestly, I have become to dread putting him to sleep these past weeks. Mind you, it doesn't happen at bedtime (7:30is) - only naps. I seem to have lost the "touch". Either he is OT or UT, and the more these frantic crying sessions we go through, the less confident I become, but I've come to learn with babies it is important to have this kind of confidence as if to say "you can trust me, because I know what I am doing". But I don't anymore! And I feel bad.

By the way, I haven't been breastfeeding him to sleep - not since he was 1 month old. I would give him BF and then keep him awake a bit and only then put down in his crib. But I guess BF soothed him on the verge of sleepy, and this doesn't happen during naps; so that's why I thought this is the key. And now, today, I don't know anymore.

Sorry, as all moms know, this happens to be one of those days, hence the desperate tone of the post.

[Kellyjs]

Oh hun, I feel your pain. Sorry for the late reply I didn't get on last night as DD too had a complete crying fit for over an hour at BT  . It's heartbreaking isn't it?

First and foremost, you are doing a great job. Remember that. They all go through disruptive phrases (look at mine last night!). Sometimes, we don't know what we're doing and that's ok. These bubbas didn't come with a manual unfortunately. 

Could you post what the day looked like for me in real time? This is a really tricky time for sleep, I remember it well xx

[Belleinfidele]

Hi again

Our day yesterday:

WU 6:30, followed by BF
Activity
8:30 breakfast, solids
Activity
10:30 I start winddown and put into crib at 10:55
....crying!....
11:45 i give him BF to relax him, then dress him and go out so that at least he could take a nap in the stroller
12:30 - 1 pm naps
No activity as I am out and he is either in a stroller when awake or at the cafe:
1:30 lunch, solids
No activity (I am walking back) until 3 pm
4 pm II nap (Dad puts him down, sleeps like a charm)
5:20 pm we decide to wake him up and I BF
Activity
7 pm dinner, followed by washup and bedtime by 8; falls asleep like a log.

Well, now that I write it out, I can see I am silly - he was clearly awfully overtired - having been up 4.5 hours. I read quite a lot about babies' sleep at that age and thought I should try to put him down earlier for his 1st nap. So today has been like this:

WU at 6 am
bf
activity
8 breakfast, solids
9:30 winddown + into crib. He slept almost 2 hours!
11: 20 BF
activity
1 lunch, solids
activity
3:30 II nap (Dad put him down so no problems there).


So it must be overtiredness + me not winding him properly down. What do you think?

[Kellyjs]

You are not being silly at all! It does help to write it down though doesn't it?

I too was wondering about OT, but mainly for the second nap as the A time was quite long after a short nap. Well done you for figuring out the first A needed to be a bit shorter today. Remember, this might not work long term as they are constantly changing it up at thsi age just to confuse us! In any case yay to the longer nap 

Because of the 10hr night, that first A of 3.5hrs obviously worked a charm. I still think there needs to be more tweaking but hopefully now he's caught up a bit with sleep it might be easier today? Keep me posted ok? This will take some work, but at least we've got something to go on.

Some bubbas like an extra long wind-down and some don't. If you feel he'd rather a long one, but make a note of the time and go up to his room a little earlier. Some LO's just need that time to unwind before being expected to go to sleep! Have you done the know your baby quiz? That's helpful too! xx

The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

[Belleinfidele]

Ok, now l have to eat my own words again - today it happened again, total disaster. I sm officially at a loss here.
Our day:

WU 6:45
Bf
Acitivity
8:30 breakfast, solids
10 - he became really sleepy, putting his head down on the carpet, whining, l picked him up, went to his room, read some books, he started to cry and "wiggle", l put him into his sleepwear, sang songs - he was cryig a bit, then grew quiet and limp, had that 10 mile look.... I put him into his crib, he always cries a bit, but then he became really animated again - started to stand up etc. I wait for him to stand up, then go and gently put him down, saying the same thing (it's nap time, go to sleep), and when we had done this for 5 min, he started to cry and got really worked up.
Usually when l put him down, l go sit where he can't see me, but so today l tried to stand by his side, patting him, singing and talking very quietly. NOTHING HELPS. He is frantic! So after like 5 min l pick  up, try to talk and soothe him, but nothing. So l push the curtains aside and we look out the window. Suddenly he's this calm and cute baby again. Ok, l decode to wait 15 min.
We look out the window, then look at books; he becomes whiny again, putting his head on the carpet, rubbing his eyes, l pat him, he really relaxes, the 10 mile look is back. I think - ok, NOW he is ready (it is already 10:45). ....NO, he is not. Becomes hysterical really quick. L give up and call over my partner who in 15 min soothes him down and he is asleep.

I know it's not about me and how l feel, but l can't help that l feel like l'm some kind of bad influence on him and it really makes me sad. I have never done CIO with him, throughout the day we have a nice time, he is a very well-tempered baby, he is very rarely babysat by someone else; l also never sneak out on him, l always say where l'm going and that l'll be right back, we play peekaboo... For the life of me l do not understand what is going on! And why is it with ME and not with Dad?

Was today UT after all? But he kept resting his head against the carpet and in my lap, rubbing his eyes, yawning... Come on, baby!
....

I have perused Tracy's book like a Bible scholar so l've done the test: seems like he is textbook baby. Usually he IS easy to calm down, but not lately during nap time. Until a couple of weeks ago PUPD really worked with him, even when he got so frantic. I have never had him so upset that l can't put him down for a nap (only when we tried extending his naps some months ago, then the second part was usually hopeless). Up until a couple of weeks ago everything TH suggested in her book have worked, but l'm out of ammo!

....

I thought perhaps it is important to mention also, that we - I and my partner - are both freelancers, which means we divide the day into two: each gets 4 hours, lunch is together and evening until baby goes to sleep, is together. Maybe the fact that I am at home, but "unapproachable" in the daytime to my baby, is increasing his SA? Although I keep away and when I do have to go downstairs where he can see me (toilet etc), I always greet him and repeat that I'm just going upstairs, I'll be back soon.
I don't know... My mind is working overtime, trying to come up with a solution or at least an explanation.

[Kellyjs]

You are still the primary caregiver I'm afraid and his frustrations will always be for you to see. I hate it too. I've had awful days with DD when she hasn't stopped crying, DH walks through the door and she's like an angel  . Then he doesn't get why I've been all stressed out!

You do make me laugh though, sorry! I too have gone through Tracy's book with that same ferocity looking for answers, so you're preaching to the choir there  .

You are doing everything perfectly actually. The constant talking to him I always recommend as they understand far more than we realise. He will know you're upstairs, but his long-term memory isn't fully formed yet yk? And you are in a great position in that it is only for 4hrs, unlike some that are in daycare full time. Keep what you're doing there, it will get better once he's a little older.

How long did he sleep for after the unintended 4hrs A? Remember what I said, that he may have been a bit OT yesterday hence the reason for the nice long nap but that short of an A is actually for a 6-7mo ok? 10mo is a yucky time for sleep, I think I said it before. We actually were close to one nap at this age as DD had crazy high A times.

I definitely think part of this is down to the 2-1 transition. Ot is to be expected, but we have to be realistic as to the A times we can expect for hsi age. He may become whingy, but after 3hrs A I would take it that he needs a change of scenery considering he perked right up once you went into his room you see? So nothing to do with you, or your wind down at all, it just ay not have been the right time. We will find what will work for him, but it will be constantly changing from now until we get to one nap i'm sorry to say. If it does make you feel any better once they are on one nap and at the right time of day., that glorious 2hr odd nap Tracy goes on about stays for quite a while and gives you some predictability back. But we just need to wait until he's ready and work with what we've got in the meantime. I'm wondering as 4.5hrs is too much atm, whether we try 4hrs first A for a few days and stick with it? wdyt? xx

[Belleinfidele]

Hi

Today he slept for slightly over an hour after the unintended 4 h A time. And from 4-5:15 pm during second.

I just don't understand his sleepy signs anymore - sleepy, and all of a sudden, perky.
But tomorrow l will try the 4 h A time - if l'm not going to have to go out. But l will post soon!
Thank you so much for taking the time to deal with my issue!

[Belleinfidele]

And this was our day today:

WU at 6:15 + bf
activity
8:45 breakfast, solids
activity
10:15 I start to wind-down and 10:30 into crib. At first he fools around, standing up and docking as soon as he sees me approach, smiling; sometimes when he does this l "speed things up" by saying "sleep tight" and leaving the room. Today after a while he began to cry, so I entered his room. He calmed down, but kept standing and sitting up, I kept putting him down. Then I took a seat beside him. He was turning from side to side as if to "look for his sleep" as it seems to me, and then his crying escalated. I was sitting there, singing quietly and sometimes touching him, but to no avail. I took him out of the room.
After that he became a surprisingly happy baby until 14 when we put him into his stroller because we had to go into town. He slept for 60 min.
Activity
4:30 BF
activity
6:45 dinner, solids
7:20 washup
8 pm asleep (no crying, but getting up a lot and acting strange, I think just overtired).

My partner says somewhere along the way I lost my confidence with my baby and I keep changing little things - leaving the room, standing by his side, going behind his crib and sit in the armchair... But I started to do those things because he started to change on me. Vicious cycle. So I though - this being a strange time in his life (SA and whatnot), I am going to commit to one kind of ritual for a week and if that doesn't work, then try something else. So i'm going to stand by his crib starting from tomorrow and see how it goes If he is OK with that, I will slowly start to leave. But still.... it doesn't take away the problem that now I'm totally confused about how much time he needs to be awake.
Any ideas?

[Kellyjs]

We really can't rely on their cues at this age anymore, so don;t worry you're really not missing anything, I promise! Cues just happen now for a variety of reasons and it's not easy to tell one from the other.

So he had one nap today then? Am I reading that right? If possible on days like that we need to shoot for an EBT. 8pm might have been far too late hun, sorry. I would've gone for 6pm or maybe earlier? How's he doing now? Did you get any NW's?

On the plus side after today with limited naps, he might well be shattered tomorrow and go to sleep at his reduced A time.. see how you go and keep me posted ok? If he sleeps well and pulls over a 12-hr night .. well, I'll let you know that if we come to it  xx

[Belleinfidele]

Hello again

So, the next say he slept like an angel again -

WU at 6:15
1st nap at 9:45, slept for 2 hours
2nd nap at 15:30, slept 1.5 hours
Bedtime at 7:30 (fell asleep 8 pm)

Yesterday we had to keep moving so unfortunately he slept in his stroller both times à 50 min, bedtime at 7:15 (fell asleep before 8 pm)

Today he woke up at 6:10 and was very tired. I had to go out, so he slept for 40 min in the stroller.
Just put him down - successfully! - for his 2nd nap at 3:40 pm. l can see some sort of pattern: after a tiresome day with long activity he sleeps very well the next day (short first A). But after a somewhat normal day his A-s should be longer. However, in order for his A time after lunch not push into his ll nap, l will definitely have to keep l nap short, 45 min.

I think it will all smooth out as he is eased into one nap; until then l just have to keep tweaking and trimming. What do you think?

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply.. went out for DH's bday on Saturday and I needed a long recovery time it seems!  I think this looks good, we're definitely seeing a pattern now aren't we? Keep up the good work and keep me posted xx