16 week old awake at 3.30am

[H7]

So yesterday I went with the shorter A times and the naps were better but she has woken at 5.45 loudly chatty singing & has kicked all her covers off.

What do you suggest doing when they wake happy chatty at 5.45? I went in at 5.55 ssshhhed, tucked her back in and said everything I say to her before bed in the hope she'll fall asleep again but she's still chatty singing away at 6.15.

I don't want to get her up yet but when u do get them up when do u take their awake time from? If she lies their happily chatting it's 45min till normal wake up time so if I get her out at 7 would u do A time from then or A time from 5.45?

Yesterday's day looked like this

WU: 6.45
E: 7.15
A: total of 1hr 50
S: 8.35

A: 10.20 (1hr 45 nap)

E: 11.00
A: total of 1hr 45
S: 12.05

A: 13.40 (1hr 35 nap)

E: 3.00
A: total of 2hr 40
S: 16.20 (this was a long awake time as we were out food shopping and she won't fall asleep went out and about unless in the car or in pushchair so didn't fall asleep til journey home)

A: 17.05 (45 min nap)

Bedtime
Bath 6
Bottle 6.15
In cot 6.35
Asleep 6.55 (total A time 1hr 50)

It took her 20 mins to fall asleep and it never normally takes that long. Said to husband at the time we've put her down too early as her A time was only 1hr 30 when we put her in the cot but she was showing all the tired signs before we put her in the bath so decided to follow her lead thinking it was because of the long awake time when we were out shopping but it seems to have backfired as she has woken at 5.45.

How long should their last awake time be?

Can you see anything else we should have done differently?

[trimbler]

Hi there, sorry haven't looked back through your previous posts but just to say at this age I, and some other mums on here, have found the 'half A time' concept useful, for waking early in the morning, or short naps where attempts to resettle have failed. So, take the amount of time LO was awake but calm in the cot, before officially getting up, and halve it. Then take that off the usual A time before the next nap. So, if she wakes at 5:45 but you don't want her up until 6:45, and she's happy playing/babbling in her cot, consider that as her being up for just half an hour before getting up. Then if she needs 1h 50 A time in total, give her another 1h 20mins from getting up at 6:45 to her nap at 8:05 - or thereabouts. Works for some, so feel free to try it, just a rule of thumb though

As I said, I haven't looked back over everything, but I wondered if she'd been able to have a shorter A before the third nap that day, whether she'd have taken a longer nap and then done well on her usual A time afterwards, but BT would have got a little later by then and she might have then slept in later. I feel like she was tired from that unavoidably long A but if she took a longer third nap she might be able to accrue enough A time overall to sleep in later in the morning. Many LOs will take three longer naps for a while before moving to two long naps and a CN. Actually, my DD was still having a little APOP 4th nap at this age so there is a range

[H7]

Cheers. I will try the half A time concept.

Still can't seem to get back to how it was.

She seems to have stretched to 2hr awake time and goes down ok fot naps with first nap being 1hr 30/1.45 and second nap also being 1hr 30 the CN of 45 but I have to wake her up from the cat nap and when I do she is then really grizzly until bed time.

She goes down to bed fine and sleeps until 4.30 then she's stirring loads and chatting away.

This morning she woke at 5 chatty chatty for 10 min then woke at 6 then chatty chatty for 10 min and then woke at 7.

I thought chatty was under tired?  But then why go back to sleep?

Guess we were just lucky with our 2 weeks of 7 til 7 and that luck h's now passed!

[trimbler]

Have you tried letting her sleep longer for her third nap? Just thinking if she's really grizzly on being woken from it then she may need a bit longer. The 'classic' routine at this age would have 2x 2h naps plus 30-45min CN, on 2h A times, so she may need to make up for only having 1.5h naps by having three of them, if that makes sense?

EW with chatting can be OT, especially if she goes back to sleep afterwards - also just a sign of lots going on in her little brain Actually pretty common at this age, but frustrating when it wakes you and you need that sleep yourself!

[H7]

She does fall asleep each time after her chatting and admittedly it is very cute just not in the early hours of the morning. She likes to chat a lot during the day too.

The only thing with the longer nap is it pushing bedtime to quite late.

She pretty much like clockwork goes down between 8.45 and 9.15 and wakes between 10.30 and 11 meaning next nap starts between 12.30 and 1 and finishes between 2 and 2.30 meaning last nap of the day doesn't start until between 4 to 4.30 so if having 1hr 30 here that's a 5.30 to 6 wake up which means bed won't be until 7.30 to 8 which feels too late for her as when she goes to bed at that time she never seems to sleep as well and will still wake around 7 meaning less overall night sleep!

So tricky hey ... just when u think u have it cracked they go ahhhh nope I'm changing again mummy. Looking forward to when she's a little.older when I'm hoping there is slightly longer between the sleep, nap and awake times changing it up.

In the mean time trying to take each day as it comes and not stress too much ... which is often easier said than done for me!

[trimbler]

You're right, the rate of change of A times etc does get slower as they get older, there are the jumps and nap transitions of course, but they also get further apart. Yes there are other issues, but I personally prefer it when we get a little longer to try and work them out before it all changes again

Yes I see what you mean, I guess I'd looked at the routine you posted above with the shorter A times, but now that A times have lengthened, if the naps are consistently good then a third CN should be ok... Just be sure to reduce the A time following the CN, to avoid OT at BT - easier said than done, I know!

[H7]

I think the shorter A time after CN before BT is the way to go. Hubby put her to bed sunday only 1hr 30 after CN and I was like ahhh that's too early she stays awake 2hrs now but Sunday was the best night we've had in a while and then last night I put her down after 1hr 40 and again she slept much better so wondering if it was OT chatty wake ups as I had been going as long as 2hr 30 some nights between CN finishing and BT.

Think I just need to accept it's constantly changing and just need to ride the wave of sleep ... probably for at least the next 4 years 😂😂

[trimbler]

Aha - reduced A time after CN before BT sounds like a key then, doesn't it?

Hmm hard to say but IME once they're properly settled on a one nap routine and passed the 18mo sr, things do get much more predictable there's even potential for some stability on two naps...but the 2-1 is tricky I think 4 years is a bit pessimistic so hopefully if you expect that then you'll be pleasantly surprised