Waking after first sleep cycle 5 months

[Conniesmummy]

Hi,  my LG is 5 months and has started taking 30 min naps again, she did this around 10 weeks old but by 12-13 weeks she was managing good 2 hr naps morning and afternoon and a cat nap before before.
We lost the afternoon nap first, now all of them are off 
I have played with a times but can't seem to get it right. I watch her on the monitor and she is awake playing with her feet and can be for almost an hour! My question is, should I leave her for the expected duration of the nap or lift her and wait for sleepy signs, which to be fair are hard to determine these days.  Quite frankly we are in a bit of a mess   

[becj86]

Hi Sweetie, seems you're having a tough time of it. Can you write out the last few days in EAS format so I can see if there are any patterns?

The behaviour when she wakes sounds like she's overstimulated or undertired rather than OT, so it may well be worth lifting her rather than leaving her lying in bed as that makes it very tricky to know what A time to do thereafter.

When you say 5 months, where is she in the space between 5 and 6 months?

[Conniesmummy]

Thanks, a typical day of bad naps is this,
W up 6:45-7 (she doesn't cry though, I just wake myself before her and knowing she will wake soon I keep an eye on the monitor, I allow her a few mins to come round before I go in and she's always smiley)
E 7:15
A
S 8:30-8:45
Wakes after 30 mins exactly so I've been lifting her
A 9:00-9:15
S 10:00
A 10:30
E 11:00
A
S 12:30
A 13:00 (usually go out to a group)
S 14:30
A 15:00
E 15:15
S 16:00
A 16:30
S 17:00
A 17:30
BT 19:30 after bath and bottle, goes down awake and can self settle within 15-20 mins.
We have had some bad bedtimes though, longest to settle was about 45 mins and she was crying for most of this with me and hubby going in to try and settle her.
I will be honest and say I am still Co sleeping  some naps at the minute and she will settle straight away and sleep up to 2 hours!
She got so ot the other day she had a meltdown at a group and we had to leave 
The minute we got home and I lay with her she passed out for an hour and a half.
I'm trying to find a balance at the minute of going out were she will cat nap but only when she's reached exhaustion!  And staying in to co sleep naps to catch her up on sleep 
I've tried snooze shades on the cat seat and pram and she still wakes after 30 mins!!
If she was happy with these naps I would be OK, but she gets ot and grumpy 

[becj86]

She's 5 months old, she probably needs more than 1.5hr A time. I think you just have a LO with a slightly shorter sleep cycle than typical and those 30min naps are UT not OT. I would say the easiest way to get this back on track would be to increase A time (she is able to stay awake longer than she currently does, I presume?) then co-sleep so she gets used to sleeping a good long nap at a reasonable time in the day.

The most important A time to increase is the first one of the day - that gives you the best chance at a long nap. I think you can reasonably jump to 2:15 or 2:30 A time at 5 months and stick with it for a few days and see what happens. Shifting things around too much can leave LO with a confused body clock. I've suggested you go to an A time that is 'average' so that we can get a bit of an idea of any patterns that might exist and tweak within a few days rather than increasing little by little as you are so far under the potential best A time for her that you'll end up chasing your tail in an OT/UT loop for months otherwise.

She will likely be OT by the end of the day, of course, because she's not getting a restorative nap in there.

When you do your first few days on the new A time, she will likely seem OT towards the end of the A time. This is because she is so used to napping after 1.5hr. Its just her body is used to it, not that it needs it, as is clear by the many short naps through the day.

How does she sleep at night? In her cot? If so, keep that up and just APOP those naps for a few days then once she's in a bit of a rhythm with naps, we can look at reducing the assistance to nap. I think it will be much easier than you probably expect once she's in a suitable routine.

[Conniesmummy]

Omg thanks for the prompt reply, I just popped back o as I realised I hasn't answered your question about age, she is just 5 months 
I will definitely give this a go. What would you class a good nap at this age? If I Co sleep she can do 2 hours but don't want to end up with too much day sleep and upset her night time. She currently self settles at night and sleeps through. Hence why I want to ensure she doesn't get ot too much.

[Conniesmummy]

Just a quick add on. I woke this morning at around 6 and watched her on and off on the monitor.  She roused around 6:30 and has been looking like she wants to resettle since. It's now 7:08 and I don't know how long to leave her?? She isn't crying, just doing what she normally does to resettle.

[Conniesmummy]

The confusion is one minute she looks like she's sleeping then about a second later she's eyes open again!! Confusing baby!!

[Conniesmummy]

Ok so she resettled after 40 mins??

[Conniesmummy]

Last thing. If she now wakes at 8 which I'm thinking she may do. We are normally 7-7, buy I think she's trying to catch up on some missed sleeps. Do we keep bedtime the same time or allow it to be a little later??

[Conniesmummy]

Ok so she woke at 7:45, fed at 8, started showing ot signs bout half 9, I changed activity to some quiet songs and stories, managed to eak her out til 9:55, took her upstairs, closed curtains as we normally do,  then we lay on the bed, I didn't cuddle her and I don't speak or have eyes open. She fussed and chatted to herself for about 5 mins then went off, no thumb or dummy needed.

[becj86]

Awesome, you did well to extend that A time. Was the settling to sleep this time significantly different from what has been happening?

I think wrt your concern re: night sleep, I can't promise she will STTN if you get better naps. She could well be crashing due to OT. That doesn't mean she won't, just that she MAY not.

I think wrt monitor, if you hadn't SEEN her, you'd have thought she was asleep, right? I think provided there hasn't been CC or CIO used, if she's always known you'll come to her if she cries, you can trust she's not needing anything and leaving her there and assuming she's sleeping is pretty reasonable.

I think BT can be a bit later, you don't want to make your day too short or you can end up with UT wakings in the early hours of the morning. I guarantee there will be a shorter night to come and set your BT earlier again. Little people are not robots, there will be variability. If you think about it, adults don't wake at the same time every day, even with alarms to help us do that.

[Conniesmummy]

Thanks,
She slept for 90 mins this morning with me, but then we went to baby massage and she missed her nap slot by an hour and had a complete meltdown 
She refused to sleep even in my arms as she has done before, it's almost as if she frightened of missing something. We got home and she had a feed then I took her for a nap and she slept for 2 hours. I kept bedtime as normal as she still looked tired and she settled ok for bed, awake when put down in her cot.
She settled ok for naps, but always does, she rarely cries going down regardless of when I put her down, at most she will fuss and mantra cry but never longer than about 15-20 mins. Most times she's out within 5 mins, whether in the cot or with me?!

[becj86]

Well, she's a dream in terms of IS then, really just need to get the routine sorted.

She slept for 90 mins this morning with me, but then we went to baby massage and she missed her nap slot by an hour and had a complete meltdown 

Its awful when they get so tired Do you have activities most days? Just wondering - sometimes its worth considering dropping activities at set times and working in outings where she could sleep. Have you any way to help her sleep while you're out of the house? Its important to your mental health to be able to get out and about and having a cue to help her sleep when its nap time can be a big help. Around 5 months, I had a blanket and swaddled L and gave him his dummy. I'd then sing and he'd be out pretty quickly - might be worth trying a wrap/carrier of some kind to reduce the stimulation a bit? I'd unswaddle once he was asleep, it was literally just a cue. Sounds like she was OS at baby massage.

[Conniesmummy]

We don't do activities every day no. And on the days we do we only do wither a morning or afternoon one. I've tried a snooze shade on the pram but she still only sleeps 30-40 mins, even in the car, and she used to sleep so well on the move. I have had her in the sling and again only short naps. I will keep trying the sling as I can cuddle her and block out the light easier I. The sling as it is black and a wrap type so I can stretch the fabric around her.

[becj86]

Even a CN while out and about is worth it if you're going an hour over A time. Then you can do a longer nap after a slightly (15min, maybe) shorter A time later in the day.