Author Topic: Waking after first sleep cycle 5 months (Read 4196 times)

Conniesmummy · « **on:** January 27, 2016, 17:42:01 pm »

Hi, my LG is 5 months and has started taking 30 min naps again, she did this around 10 weeks old but by 12-13 weeks she was managing good 2 hr naps morning and afternoon and a cat nap before before.
We lost the afternoon nap first, now all of them are off

I have played with a times but can't seem to get it right. I watch her on the monitor and she is awake playing with her feet and can be for almost an hour! My question is, should I leave her for the expected duration of the nap or lift her and wait for sleepy signs, which to be fair are hard to determine these days. Quite frankly we are in a bit of a mess

becj86 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2016, 07:31:27 am »

Hi Sweetie, seems you're having a tough time of it. Can you write out the last few days in EAS format so I can see if there are any patterns?

The behaviour when she wakes sounds like she's overstimulated or undertired rather than OT, so it may well be worth lifting her rather than leaving her lying in bed as that makes it very tricky to know what A time to do thereafter.

When you say 5 months, where is she in the space between 5 and 6 months?

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2016, 21:39:50 pm »

Thanks, a typical day of bad naps is this,
W up 6:45-7 (she doesn't cry though, I just wake myself before her and knowing she will wake soon I keep an eye on the monitor, I allow her a few mins to come round before I go in and she's always smiley)
E 7:15
A
S 8:30-8:45
Wakes after 30 mins exactly so I've been lifting her
A 9:00-9:15
S 10:00
A 10:30
E 11:00
A
S 12:30
A 13:00 (usually go out to a group)
S 14:30
A 15:00
E 15:15
S 16:00
A 16:30
S 17:00
A 17:30
BT 19:30 after bath and bottle, goes down awake and can self settle within 15-20 mins.
We have had some bad bedtimes though, longest to settle was about 45 mins and she was crying for most of this with me and hubby going in to try and settle her.
I will be honest and say I am still Co sleeping some naps at the minute and she will settle straight away and sleep up to 2 hours!
She got so ot the other day she had a meltdown at a group and we had to leave

The minute we got home and I lay with her she passed out for an hour and a half.
I'm trying to find a balance at the minute of going out were she will cat nap but only when she's reached exhaustion! And staying in to co sleep naps to catch her up on sleep

I've tried snooze shades on the cat seat and pram and she still wakes after 30 mins!!
If she was happy with these naps I would be OK, but she gets ot and grumpy

becj86 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2016, 22:37:26 pm »

She's 5 months old, she probably needs more than 1.5hr A time. I think you just have a LO with a slightly shorter sleep cycle than typical and those 30min naps are UT not OT. I would say the easiest way to get this back on track would be to increase A time (she is able to stay awake longer than she currently does, I presume?) then co-sleep so she gets used to sleeping a good long nap at a reasonable time in the day.

The most important A time to increase is the first one of the day - that gives you the best chance at a long nap. I think you can reasonably jump to 2:15 or 2:30 A time at 5 months and stick with it for a few days and see what happens. Shifting things around too much can leave LO with a confused body clock. I've suggested you go to an A time that is 'average' so that we can get a bit of an idea of any patterns that might exist and tweak within a few days rather than increasing little by little as you are so far under the potential best A time for her that you'll end up chasing your tail in an OT/UT loop for months otherwise.

She will likely be OT by the end of the day, of course, because she's not getting a restorative nap in there.

When you do your first few days on the new A time, she will likely seem OT towards the end of the A time. This is because she is so used to napping after 1.5hr. Its just her body is used to it, not that it needs it, as is clear by the many short naps through the day.

How does she sleep at night? In her cot? If so, keep that up and just APOP those naps for a few days then once she's in a bit of a rhythm with naps, we can look at reducing the assistance to nap. I think it will be much easier than you probably expect once she's in a suitable routine.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2016, 23:07:02 pm »

Omg thanks for the prompt reply, I just popped back o as I realised I hasn't answered your question about age, she is just 5 months

I will definitely give this a go. What would you class a good nap at this age? If I Co sleep she can do 2 hours but don't want to end up with too much day sleep and upset her night time. She currently self settles at night and sleeps through. Hence why I want to ensure she doesn't get ot too much.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #5 on:** January 29, 2016, 07:08:59 am »

Just a quick add on. I woke this morning at around 6 and watched her on and off on the monitor. She roused around 6:30 and has been looking like she wants to resettle since. It's now 7:08 and I don't know how long to leave her?? She isn't crying, just doing what she normally does to resettle.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #6 on:** January 29, 2016, 07:10:30 am »

The confusion is one minute she looks like she's sleeping then about a second later she's eyes open again!! Confusing baby!!

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2016, 07:25:10 am »

Ok so she resettled after 40 mins??

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2016, 07:44:01 am »

Last thing. If she now wakes at 8 which I'm thinking she may do. We are normally 7-7, buy I think she's trying to catch up on some missed sleeps. Do we keep bedtime the same time or allow it to be a little later??

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2016, 10:19:01 am »

Ok so she woke at 7:45, fed at 8, started showing ot signs bout half 9, I changed activity to some quiet songs and stories, managed to eak her out til 9:55, took her upstairs, closed curtains as we normally do, then we lay on the bed, I didn't cuddle her and I don't speak or have eyes open. She fussed and chatted to herself for about 5 mins then went off, no thumb or dummy needed.

becj86 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2016, 21:13:30 pm »

Awesome, you did well to extend that A time. Was the settling to sleep this time significantly different from what has been happening?

I think wrt your concern re: night sleep, I can't promise she will STTN if you get better naps. She could well be crashing due to OT. That doesn't mean she won't, just that she MAY not.

I think wrt monitor, if you hadn't SEEN her, you'd have thought she was asleep, right? I think provided there hasn't been CC or CIO used, if she's always known you'll come to her if she cries, you can trust she's not needing anything and leaving her there and assuming she's sleeping is pretty reasonable.

I think BT can be a bit later, you don't want to make your day too short or you can end up with UT wakings in the early hours of the morning. I guarantee there will be a shorter night to come and set your BT earlier again. Little people are not robots, there will be variability. If you think about it, adults don't wake at the same time every day, even with alarms to help us do that.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2016, 21:29:41 pm »

Thanks,
She slept for 90 mins this morning with me, but then we went to baby massage and she missed her nap slot by an hour and had a complete meltdown

She refused to sleep even in my arms as she has done before, it's almost as if she frightened of missing something. We got home and she had a feed then I took her for a nap and she slept for 2 hours. I kept bedtime as normal as she still looked tired and she settled ok for bed, awake when put down in her cot.
She settled ok for naps, but always does, she rarely cries going down regardless of when I put her down, at most she will fuss and mantra cry but never longer than about 15-20 mins. Most times she's out within 5 mins, whether in the cot or with me?!

becj86 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2016, 21:42:59 pm »

Well, she's a dream in terms of IS then, really just need to get the routine sorted.

Quote from: Conniesmummy on January 29, 2016, 21:29:41 pm

She slept for 90 mins this morning with me, but then we went to baby massage and she missed her nap slot by an hour and had a complete meltdown

Its awful when they get so tired

Do you have activities most days? Just wondering - sometimes its worth considering dropping activities at set times and working in outings where she could sleep. Have you any way to help her sleep while you're out of the house? Its important to your mental health to be able to get out and about and having a cue to help her sleep when its nap time can be a big help. Around 5 months, I had a blanket and swaddled L and gave him his dummy. I'd then sing and he'd be out pretty quickly - might be worth trying a wrap/carrier of some kind to reduce the stimulation a bit? I'd unswaddle once he was asleep, it was literally just a cue. Sounds like she was OS at baby massage.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2016, 22:08:53 pm »

We don't do activities every day no. And on the days we do we only do wither a morning or afternoon one. I've tried a snooze shade on the pram but she still only sleeps 30-40 mins, even in the car, and she used to sleep so well on the move. I have had her in the sling and again only short naps. I will keep trying the sling as I can cuddle her and block out the light easier I. The sling as it is black and a wrap type so I can stretch the fabric around her.

becj86 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2016, 22:22:03 pm »

Even a CN while out and about is worth it if you're going an hour over A time. Then you can do a longer nap after a slightly (15min, maybe) shorter A time later in the day.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2016, 09:00:31 am »

We do try and squeeze a cat nap in if we can before a group to tide her over. Just missed it hence the meltdowns

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2016, 19:36:47 pm »

Today's update.
Woke 6:45
Fed 7:15 after wash and dress, I never feed her straight away.
08:45 wind down story upstairs,First nap with me, 2 hrs
A 11:00
E 11:15
Went out to supermarket, she actually fell alseep as we were leaving at 13:00 but woke when put into car. Fell back asleep at 13:30 for 30 mins.
E 15:15
Last nap she actually settled on my knee and I was able to watch a movie! Not done that for so long, it was beaches with better midler, old favourite of mine

She slept for 90 mins which amazed me as she will normally cat nap on my knee downstairs!!
A 17:15
Bath 18:30 (wasn't sure how long to leave after better nap so aimed for usual bedtime routine??
Bottle about 18:40 ish
Put down awake 19:15, a little noise so far but appears to be settling, fingers crossed.
I know she is still napping with help, but no meltdown when out today and the nap on my k we was progress so I feel better that I'm not isolated to the bedroom with her all the time for naps!!
I want her to feel able to nap on the go if and when we have to, I get edgy if we need to go anywhere, like tomorrow we have friends visiting from a distance away and I'd hate them to see grumpy baby as she is so much fun when she's happy. Pity it's only me and daddy that see that side of her, well my mum does too, she loves her nanna

becj86 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2016, 20:55:09 pm »

Quote from: Conniesmummy on January 30, 2016, 19:36:47 pm

I want her to feel able to nap on the go if and when we have to, I get edgy if we need to go anywhere, like tomorrow we have friends visiting from a distance away and I'd hate them to see grumpy baby as she is so much fun when she's happy.

This comes with practice (and planning & staying relaxed if things don't go completely to plan). Try to plan for them to meet you guys when LO has just woken, so there's some happy baby time when she's well rested, then you can rightly comment that she's tired when she is. You can also try taking her away from the new people 15-30min before naps time to settle her down from any overstimulation that might be involved with meeting new people so she can nap.

Yay for naps on the couch

So nice!

That was a much better day, yes? You did well to recover from the unplanned CN and she got her two long naps and a CN. FX for a good night xx

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #18 on:** January 30, 2016, 21:28:23 pm »

Thanks. We did have a few tears on waking from the last nap, but she had a burp and spit up and think this disturbed her

she soon settled with a cuddle and had another 10 mins and woke happy and played nicely before bedtime.
She is tired at bedtime and is in the habit of trying to sleep whilst feeding. I sit and quietly tell her stories to keep her as awake as possible so she goes down awake, she may soon get bored with the same stories night after night lol

becj86 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2016, 00:57:21 am »

I still sing the same BT songs to DS now at 4.5yo that I sang when he was 5 mo. He loves the "tradition" of it.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2016, 20:48:29 pm »

Well we survived the visitors

I settled her for a cat nap before we went and she was a dream the whole time. She sat in a highchair and played happily. She did get tired, but no meltdown, had a feed then we came home and she napped for 2 hours! Albeit with me, I fell asleep too, large lunch lol. I thought bedtime may have been off due to the longer nap but I just put it back 15 mins and she went down as normal

becj86 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2016, 22:09:00 pm »

Wonderful, well done. You tweaked your day around your activities and it worked well for you all. I'm so glad you had a great meetup with your friends.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2016, 22:31:24 pm »

I think it's just having the confidence to tweak things I guess. I'm still assisting naps, no real intervention except laying next to her, the odd cuddle, no rocking or anything and bedtime is still bath bottle and down to sleep in her cot awake and she settles herself.
I do hope that one day she can manage to nap without as much intervention, as much as I love snuggles, I find I dash about sorting myself out whilst she is awake. Good job my hubby is so good and we share the chores very well, always have done, and he's a good cook too. On a really organised day me and lo organise dinner, well she supervises me

Thanks so much for your ongoing support. I like checking in with you.

becj86 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2016, 00:16:15 am »

Is she safe to sleep there without you? Would you be able to get up after she goes to sleep, for instance? Is she needing you to resettle through the nap?

Quote from: Conniesmummy on January 31, 2016, 22:31:24 pm

I think it's just having the confidence to tweak things I guess

Definitely, the confidence helps. Its important, too, to realise that you won't 'break' her if she doesn't get perfect naps every day and that her crying isn't always a bad thing, its her only way to communicate, so when she's older, instead of crying when tired/overstimulated, she might whine or become clingy.

Lucky you with DH who can cook! Mine learned this year when I went back to uni

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2016, 09:13:06 am »

I am lucky he is fab

I can leave her at the min but won't be leaving long til she's on the move as can already roll both ways!
At the moment I could let a bomb off in that first half an hour but after that I do need to resettle her as she is wide awake!
I do feel much better about managing changes in routine.
I have stopped checking the video monitor in the morning if I wake early. I set alarm for 6:45 and get her up then unless I hear her before. She is always awake so I still don't know what time she wakes, but is always smiley.

becj86 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2016, 19:59:30 pm »

Have you tried white noise?

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2016, 20:26:21 pm »

Used it when she was really little, not sure if it worked or not really. Should I try it first on my bed without me lying there or just go for it in her room? I've got a bear that plays a heartbeat but it only plays for 5 mins and responds to crying or motion but lo sometimes lies awake trying to resettle but not crying. Plus it isn't very loud so she wouldn't hear it if she was crying. Again I had an app on my phone but that only plays for 30 mins. Any suggestions?

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2016, 20:44:05 pm »

If we did start using white noise what about overnight as currently she self settles and we don't hear a peep all night

becj86 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2016, 23:17:36 pm »

Quote from: Conniesmummy on February 01, 2016, 20:26:21 pm

Again I had an app on my phone but that only plays for 30 mins. Any suggestions?

Probably what trained her to sleep only 30 min in the first place

Why these things get sold, I don't know. Babies need things to be the same when they rouse in the middle of a nap as they were when the fell asleep for quite a while - generally at least until 10-11 months.

Quote from: Conniesmummy on February 01, 2016, 20:26:21 pm

If we did start using white noise what about overnight as currently she self settles and we don't hear a peep all night

I wouldn't bother at night, nights and naps are clearly different at the moment and if the night isn't an issue, I wouldn't try to fix it.

Its probably worth trying a sleep in her crib during the day. She might associate it only with nights now :-/ I'd definitely try it a few times and see what happens.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2016, 06:46:32 am »

Funny thing, it's really windy tonight, kept me awake, but this is the first morning I've woken and lo is flat out when I've checked. Maybe the wind all night has helped so maybe white noise may too. What do you think?

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2016, 06:48:38 am »

I've just thought also she slept out and about better in a coffee shop ad I thought the coffee machine was very loud nd would wake her!!

becj86 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2016, 10:16:55 am »

Think about how loud your heartbeat would be when she's inside your womb, maybe compare with hearing a heartbeat if you've your head on someone's chest - they're used to noise, not complete silence! Totally worth trying white noise

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2016, 17:51:28 pm »

Ok, now we're in trouble. Oh is a sound engineer so in true fashion is complicating the whole white noise scenario!! He's set something up and is fretting about the decibels! I had to ask of it was only was that quiet!!! Lol
He said any higher is unsafe.... I must be stone deaf! Baby didn't hear it either I don't think. I said why don't we just buy a white noise machine!!! Went down like a lead balloon

Oopsy

becj86 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2016, 21:29:32 pm »

LOL! Obviously it doesn't need to be super load but enough to drown out/disguise/muffle the other noises is actually the point, yk? Get him to put his head (and ears) under water and listen - that's a similar experience to the womb, I imagine though he'd have to imagine hearing a heartbeat through it.

Why does he think any higher is unsafe? If its quieter than a voice speaking, for instance, does he think you shouldn't speak to LO lest you damage his hearing?

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2016, 21:49:52 pm »

He's been googling! Says over 50 decibels is unsafe!
Our bedroom with a small river running behind the house and through double glazed windows was registering at 64!!
How does that work?
I'll give it another go tomorrow

On a positive note, this mornings nap took very little if any intervention from me, apart from lying next to her, I didn't hold her in any way and she didn't have her dummy or suck her thumb. Oh noisily got out of bed (he isn't lazy, he works late), clanged in his bedside drawer, used his inhalers, then was equally as noisy in the bathroom!! She slept through it all for 2 hours!
I left oh in charge over lunchtime as I had a meeting with my boss re returning to work

When I got home she was happy, buy had only had a cat nap of about 30 mins, oh had left her to resettle for a while but she was playing in her cot so he brought her down. I don't mind this too much as we normally go out in the afternoon and nap longer later.
She then had an hour before teatime. Bedtime was really easy again. Not a whimper, 10 mins fidgeting and she was out

I said to a friend, I don't mind helping the naps to protect bedtime and overnight. But I am hoping to resolve it somehow at some point as she will need to improve when she goes to daycare when I go back to work. She will be 10 months old then and I'm hoping we have cracked it by then lol.

becj86 · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2016, 00:04:12 am »

You've plenty of time before daycare and its something that is variable anyway that you can do as much to prepare and it can go well or backfire. Some LOs don't sleep well at daycare due to overstimulation, some sleep better there than at home because they're set up and every other kid is sleeping too - positive peer pressure

Just maybe take DB measurements while he gets ready

Good luck with the white noise conversation

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2016, 19:33:06 pm »

I'm hoping for some peer pressure lol. I tried the white noise today, set at the right volume now!! Apparently yesterday the speaker had turned off which is why I couldn't hear anything lol

Anyway, it didn't help her one bit, she did her usual good morning nap with me, without the noise, but still cat napped at lunchtime, and then an ok nap before tea. It feels like this is her routine at the min and if she's happy then maybe I just carry on and try again when she's a bit older??!! I wouldn't be doing much when she was asleep anyway as I do most things when she's awake so she can watch me and hubby is also great around the house. She does go to bed by 7 so I have my evenings

If it means she feels happier when she's awake then I'll carry on.

becj86 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 03, 2016, 23:28:20 pm »

Yep, if that is her normal natural routine, run with it. She is getting a good amount of sleep and is having at least one restorative nap in a day which makes a big difference.

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2016, 11:17:21 am »

Quick morning update before she wakes up lol.
Woke at 7 after asleep by 7:15 Last night.
Nap prep 9:20, story in our bedroom with white noise on.
Lay down not touching me at all. No intervention from me at all today, just lay on the bed. She has now been asleep for an hour and 45 mins, when she has stirred it was gentle and not the normal eyes wide and arms and legs flapping. Feeling good right now.

becj86 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2016, 05:53:06 am »

Awesome update

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2016, 09:27:15 am »

Ye the day went well, swimming always makes her happy but she was a cranky monkey at bedtime, took her a good 20 mins of whinging to settle. But slept til 6:45 this morning and having nap now x

becj86 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 05, 2016, 19:51:48 pm »

Fingers crossed for another good day

Conniesmummy · « **Reply #42 on:** February 05, 2016, 20:24:46 pm »

Thanks,
I sneaked a cat nap in before baby massage, no meltdown and an hours nap, albeit with me still, before tea. Good bedtime tonight, no tears

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Author Topic: Waking after first sleep cycle 5 months (Read 4196 times)