Author Topic: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights  (Read 3233 times)

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Offline kyles_mum

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Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« on: January 28, 2016, 20:50:45 pm »
Hello there,

I am in need of some advice for my recently turned 5 month old.  He had generally been a good sleeper (from 7/8pm through to 5am with a DF at 11:30pm, 1.5- 2 hr naps with a 30-45 min catnap during the day). 

Over the past 3 weeks, both daytime naps and night sleeps have spun a bit out of control - with the night sleeps being affected the most.  There are signs of teething (massive drooling, wanting to put anything and everything in his mouth) and rolling attempts during his sleeps.  He was requiring additional feeds a couple weeks back and with our pediatrician's advice, we started on solids (rice cereal, pears, squash).  We are doing one food item a day at 1-2 tsp about an hr after breast feeding.  Kyle has got some weight on him and was at 18 lbs at his 4 month check up. 

We are on the 4/4 and he is exclusively BF. 

I am having some trouble determining whether he wakes at night out of habit, comfort seeking or simply all that rolling/thrashing has startled himself.  He can be consoled with a pacifier most of the time however if he wakes again 30-60min later and it has been 4 hrs since the last feed, I will feed him out of desperation that this will help him sleep for a period of time.  He had some teething discomfort last week during the night but it doesn't seem to be the case this week. 

Yesterday looked like this...
E 0710 baby wakes and eats (12min)
A
S 0845 put down and asleep by 0856
   1015 awake
   1040 out of crib
E 1100 (10min)
A
S 1240 put down and asleep by 1252
   1415 awake
   PU/PD until 1500
E 1500 (8min)
A
S 1650 put down
   1750 wake baby
A
E 1900 (20min)
S Awake at 2230, 2250, 0130, 0145, 0310, 0400, 0515
DF 2330 (8min) and additional feed at 0310

Pls let me know if additional information is required.  Many thanks in advance for the help!  Grateful for any advice for this first time mum. 

Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 21:34:04 pm »
Hi there!  I think you have a combination of things going on 1) teething, 2) big developmental strides, and 3) his A times look a little short for his age.  Most babies of 5 months are awake for 2 - 2.5 hrs and I'm willing to bet all that broken sleep is because he's UT. I would suggest you push for a full 2hr A time and see how that goes for a few days.  He may be ready for 2.5hr but I'd rather you go slowly and see how he does instead of pushing for too much to soon.  I'd also suggest you cap the CN at 45 minutes.  He's almost at the age where he can drop it all together, and indeed may be ready to but again, let's go slowly.


Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 20:15:34 pm »
Hello lauradj,

Thank you so much for your message!  Another tough night last night, waking every hr starting at 0130 :(

I have a silly question...if the lil monkey wakes prior to the recommended 1.5-2 hr nap time and PU/PD or shush pat is unsuccessful in getting him back to sleep, do we start the A time when he wakes? I realize the EASY is a guideline however due to my sleep deprived state and now battling some sort of cold (sheesh), I am operating at a very basic level ;) 

Today I stretched his morning activity for the full 2 hrs...

E0710 baby wakes
A
S0915
  1000 awake (boo. Teething discomfort?)
  1100 out of room
E1100
A Should the A time start at 1000 or 1100?
S Should he be sleeping at 1200 or 1300? 

If both day time naps are under an hr, we should still cap the CN at 45 min? 

Apologies if these questions should be posted on a different thread. 

Thanks so much for your time. 

Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2016, 22:34:02 pm »
Bummer on the rough night!  It's so hard to function when you're exhausted!  Yes, if your LO wakes early, that's when you start the A time.  For what it's worth, I never did the full 45 minutes of Shh-Pat Tracy suggested.  I think many of us draw the line around the 20 minute mark for naps.  You don't have to but I just thought you'd like to know  :)  So I'd split the difference and say your LO was awake at 10:30 and would need another nap at 12:30.  What I would recommend is you head into his room for quiet time and pre-nap stories around 12:10/12:15 because he's going to be a bit zonked by that point.  If he's asleep 5 minutes early, no big deal.
If his naps are rubbish all day, I'd give him a solid hour for his CN and then an early BT.  I hope that helps, keep the questions coming!



Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 02:25:45 am »
Yes, all this helps...very much!

So, we have made some improvements.  The lil munchkin is no longer waking every hr starting at 0100...he has delayed this to 0330/0400 ;) 

We have stretched the activity times to at least 2 hrs over the past few days.  We haven't quite made it to the 2.5hr mark but we hit 2 hrs and 15min today (Jan 31).  My question is when do I know he is ready to drop the cat nap?  I have been finding that it takes anywhere between 20-40 min to settle for his night sleep whereas previously I would feed him and he would be asleep right away. 

If we drop the cat nap, does the bed time get bumped up (i.e. second nap at 1330-1530 then BT at 1830)? 

Jan 30
0440 awake feed
0506 back in crib
0515 whimpering requiring assistance to settle
0615 whimpering requiring assistance to settle

E 0700 awake and feed
   0905 put down and asleep right away
A 1100 awake
S 1305 put down
   1311 asleep
   1430 baby awake
E 1500
A
S 1640 put down and asleep in 10 min
   1715 awake
A
E 1900
S 1935 put down wide awake
   2000 calm and sleepy
DF 2320  not really a DF since he now wakes up for it! 

Night wakes -
0330 awake, pacifier
0345 awake, feed
0410 back in crib chatting happily, chewing on his lil bear, teething?
0445 asleep
0610 cry then settled
0615 cry, PU
0730 baby wakes and feed

I have soo much to learn!

Thanks again for your time and patience. 

Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 22:44:59 pm »
Ha, the learning never stops!!  You will know it's time to drop the nap when a) it becomes difficult for your LO to settle at bed time, as you noted, and b) when you really can't fit it into the day without doing a later bed time.  I find dropping the CN is more stressful for me than my babes.  They're a little tired the first few days but we kept them happy playing and it was no big deal.  We learned with DS1 that moving his bed time around caused more issues than benefits so we just keep the bed time the same unless the boys are super tired.   
One thing I noticed was that you're doing a DF at 11:20pm, is that right?  If so, I would suggest you move that forward a bit.  Tracy suggested doing the DF no later than 11 or you risk messing around with their sleep cycle.  I'm not completely sure how that works but every parent I've encountered so far has found that a DF between 10-11pm produced the best results.  I always did mine at 10:15/10:30pm and then straight to bed for me.   


Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 01:05:44 am »
Got it on the DF!  I always figured I fed him at 7 (BT) then 11:00/11:30ish would be 4 hrs post and the munchkin should be hungry.  I will work on moving the DF up though :)  Heck I do not want to mess with the sleep cycle. 

Need to pick your brain on the night wakes lauradj.  My brain is quickly turning into a pile of mush with this lack o sleep...boo  :o

Last night (Feb 2) looked like this...
0230 lot of rolling and movement, baby wakes, provide pacifier
0250 more rolling, baby wakes, reposition and provide little bear 
0300 feed (perhaps earlier wakes indicate hunger?)  0320 back in crib
0412 rolling and awake
0445 coughing (seriously?!) and rolling, no intervening
0630 awake and feed - begin day

Previous night (Feb 1) was...
0300 whimper, rolling, provide pacifier
0320 whimper, feed
0343 back in crib
0500 cry, provide pacifier, settled promptly
0555 rolling and awake/agitated
0600 teething liquid
0617 PU/PD settled
0625 cry, lots of rolling
0630 up

FYI on what yesterday (Feb 1) looked like...
0700 feed but both baby and I fell back asleep.  Tried to wake baby but he was super tired from a crappy night.
0915 baby wakes
E 1000 feed
A
S 1123 put down 1125 asleep
   1246 awake, requiring intervening for 5 min
   1335 wake baby
E 1335
A
S 1600 asleep
   1647 wake baby
E 1700
A
E 1900
S 1915
   2200 awake intervene with pacifier
   2204 pacifier fell out, still sleeping


My concern is not reading this little munchkin's cues properly at night.  I don't know if he is waking out of hunger or habit.  If the pacifier seems to soothe him and he falls back asleep, I assume he is not hungry.  If he wakes every 30-60 min and is biting on his little bear/gnawing on his fingers and fists alongside with being agitated/hyper, I am interpreting that as teething or some sort of discomfort.  At that point, I will try some homeopathic teething liquid (which works some of the time in settling).  Aside from the teething liquid, Tylenol, elevating the head...are there other teething management tips? 

I am also unclear on when I should intervene - do I wait until he cries?  My mom has been visiting from out of town and I was thinking that I may be intervening too soon, in hopes that baby doesn't mount to a full cry for fear of waking my mom and husband. 

I informed Kyle's pediatrician of his status yesterday and interestingly, he didn't seem to think Kyle is teething.  I still think teething may be a possibility though!  The doc suggested Kyle needed sleep training. 

On a brighter note, we have restored the day time naps at 2 hrs with your suggestion of increasing the A time! Woohoo :)  Thank you so much.

Apologies for the lengthy post.  As always, I am so grateful for the help.  Looking forward to recovering from this yucky cold and sleeping through the night soon. 

Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2016, 22:03:13 pm »
Hi there!  Yup, I do think you're intervening too soon.  You'd be amazed at what people can sleep through and either way, your Mom will totally understand and I am certain your DH will understand. 
Do you have a video monitor?  If so, I might suggest turning the screen off for a bit or even just turning it off completely at night.  Trust me, if he cries you will hear it!  We have all three bedrooms on the same floor but I shoot out of bed the moment one of my kids cries out.  I hear it immediately.  I also found having a monitor on all the time interrupted my own sleep because I would wake at the slightest noise (see above).
You may not have to do any sleep training at all.  Just allow your baby to sleep on his own and don't go in unless he cries.  Both my boys, when beginning the 2-1 transition, used to wake early and chat up a storm and both DH and I would wake up and lie there silently begging them to be quiet but we never went in unless they cried.  Now that's ended and we're back to 7am wake ups.  Give it a go.  It might interrupt your sleep a little but long term, it's a good thing. 


Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2016, 18:46:58 pm »
Once again in need of your mad skills lauradj!

Kyle was doing really well up until this past Monday when he received his 6 month vaccinations.  We took your advice and he was taking two 1.5-2hr naps during the day with a cat nap if he awoke extra early.  This resulted in pretty good nights when he would awake once or twice, sometimes for the DF and then between 4-6AM for another feed.

Unfortunately, the night wakings have returned.  Boo.  I thought I would give him a couple of nights in case he simply wasn't feeling well from the immunizations however he has been doing pretty good during the day which makes me think that any side effects have resolved. 

Our days/nights have looked like this...
March 2
0130 cry
0140 E
0445 cry and E
0520 cry, able to soothe with pacifier
0620 big cry and E
0652 back in crib, fell asleep with BF
0755 baby wakes
1015 put down, has been fussy for 30 min and could only manage a 2hr15 min A
1145 baby wakes and E
1440 asleep in car
1452 put down in crib, unable to S
1608 put down again after A
1700 wake baby
1930 E and bedtime
2250 DF

March 3
Forgot to document night wakings. Darn.
0620 awake and E
0920 put down (work being done to house next door)
1005 awake and E
1315 put down after 3hrs A
1550 wake baby 2hrs 35 min S
1600 E
1900 E and bedtime
2245 DF

March 4
0150 awake and chatting
0210 cry and E, awake after feed
0250 asleep
0430 cry and able to soothe with pacifier
0610 cry and E
0930 put down following a 3 hr A

Per the wonder week, we are not in a development leap.  He has been rolling from back to front over the past couple of weeks so that is not new.  I'm concerned with forming bad night waking habits. 

As always, I'm grateful for the advice!


Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2016, 03:07:47 am »
Hi there!  Sorry it took me a while to respond.  I went back to work so it was a busy week in our house  :).  6 month immunizations can really kick some LO's butts, so this may be a carry over.  Keep in mind his body is fighting off a mini virus so he's sort of sick.  Could this be teething related?  If everything else seems ok, I'd suggest a little A push of 5-10mins but it sounds like he may be fighting something, given that he isn't able to make the full A time he's used to.  How did today go?


Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2016, 07:50:10 am »
Hello!
Thank you for your reply.  The little monkey is still waking several times after 0200.  Boo!  I don't believe it is due to teething...at this recent doctor's visit, the pediatrician looked at Kyle's gums and did not seem to think we are dealing with any teething yet.  Could it be that he has hit a growth spurt?  Not sure if it is helpful knowing this little "big" guy's stats but he is 21 lbs and 28".  He was 8.9 lbs when he was born...I am 5'2 ;)

Here is what the last couple of days/nights looked like...
March 5
0230 cry, unable to soothe, wide awake, feed
0300 asleep in crib
0545 awake, fussy, reposition and able to settle with pacifier
0610 nope, false settling! ha.  Feed and start day.
0900 put down (little early put down due to swimming class at 1130)
1030 baby wakes and E
1335 put down and S
1520 baby wakes
1845 asleep following bedtime feed
2140 cry, able to settle with pacifier
2230 DF

March 6
0205 cry, appears to be fully awake, feed
0440 cry, able to settle with reposition and pacifier
0455 cry, pacifier still in place, feed
0640 cry, pacifier
0725 wake baby and E
1025 put down for S
1225 wake baby and E
1530 per daddy, baby unwilling to sleep, appears hyper, could this be due to formula given at 1500 (baby is primarily breastfed and is given formula when I'm out of the house or on occasion as a thirst quencher)
1650 baby asleep S
1730 wake baby
1920 asleep with bedtime feed
2315 DF -- late! lost track of time. Crossing my fingers for a good night!

Thank you for your input!  Hope your return to work is a smooth transition.  Best wishes.




Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2016, 21:46:13 pm »
Hmmm, I'm willing to bet that at least one of his wakings is hunger related, especially as he's a bigger baby.  I noticed one night he needed feeding twice, and the other night he only needed one feed so I don't think it's habit yet.  What happens if your DH goes in to settle him?  Does he quiet down or keep putting up a fuss? 


Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2016, 22:43:43 pm »
Thank you for your message.  Although I am relieved to hear you don't think he is waking out of habit, I am feeling a bit at a loss with keeping up with his eating needs!  I have been wondering about him being hungry at night recently and your message helped to confirm my thoughts. 

As for your question about my husband - well, he doesn't hear the baby (ha!) so it is just me whom tends to the munchkin.

The last couple days/nights have looked like this...
March 7
0340 cry and E
0640 awake and E and A
0950 put down and S
1115 awake
1420 put down and S
1555 awake
1920 asleep after bedtime feed
2245 cry and DF

March 8
0320 awake and chatting
0335 fussy and feed
0400 back in crib, wide awake, fussy until 0500 -- why??
0640 wake baby
0920 put down early due to upcoming music class
1040 wake baby
1330 put down for S

Would you recommend I do a posting in the eating section?  Kyle is primarily breast fed and we started solids when he turned 5 months.  We have been going at it slowly since I have been gun shy due to his acid reflux.  At this point, I offer him solids (couple tablespoons) about an hr after he breast feeds.  I have been offering him one bottle of formula at the 3:00 feeding these last few days but am considering giving him another bottle at the DF.  At the 6 month doctor's appt, the pediatrician doctor suggested we do solids first before breast feeding.  We have tried this a few times and it seemed to go ok. 

Please let me know if I should pop over to a different section!  Once I figure out the eating...perhaps he will sleep through the night?!  Thanks for your patience and sharing your wisdom!


Offline lauradj

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2016, 04:45:01 am »
He has reflux?!  That changes things, I don't think you mentioned that before.  My DS2 has/had it as well so here are some things to consider, if you're not already doing them.  Is his pain managed? Is his mattress elevated?  Does he sleep on his left side?  If he's waking in the night and he has reflux, it may be reflux related but it may not, hence all the questions.  Also, do not do PU/PD with a reflux baby as it only aggravates the problem.
Regarding your DH, NOPE!  He doesn't get to sleep through every night.  I used to be the only one to get up in the middle of the night, literally up to a month ago.  Finally I told my DH I needed help and that I was beginning to resent that fact that he was able to sleep so soundly when I woke at the slightest sound.  He now wakes whenever one of the boys cries, not often thankfully, and he'll hop out of bed quickly to go to them.  He's great at settling them and actually told me he stopped trying to get up because I would get up so quickly.  I realized I had to let him help and he realized I needed support.  BAM!
To answer your question, I don't think this is a food issue but you can try posting on the Eating board if you like.  :)


Offline kyles_mum

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Re: Have mercy...another 5 mon old and sleepless nights
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 22:53:22 pm »
Ahh...my apologies that I have not mentioned the acid reflux.  To be honest, it actually slipped my mind to say anything.  He was diagnosed with it in month 3 and overall his symptoms have greatly improved.  Previously, he would struggle with every feed - he no longer requires his antacid and as long as I avoid dairy and spicy foods, he is overall ok. 

I appreciate the tips though.  His mattress was elevated with a wedge pillow previously and now I have it propped with a couple blankets under his mattress cover.  He wiggles so much when he sleeps though so half the time, his head isn't even on the darn elevated bit.  As for sleeping on his left side, he does this occasionally but again he rolls a bunch and I have found it difficult to keep him in a position.  Good point on the PU/PD - thankfully, we don't need to do it that often.  I used the PU/PD yesterday after he awoke 40 min into his nap but it just took one PU/PD, thankfully.

As for having my husband more involved.  I definitely see your point and it has previously crossed my mind but when the night hits, it just seems easier if I do it...ha.  Blah Blah.  Perhaps, it is something we can consider though...it would truly be quite amazing if my husband learns to hear the babe cry at night! 

So last night, Kyle slept through to 5AM!  Hopefully this is an indication we are headed in the right direction?  Not sure if I did anything differently other than maybe offering a bit more solids between his regular breast milk feeds. 

As always, we are grateful for your feedback.  Thank you lauradj!