10 month old long NWs

[MommyN]

I am at a loss with what to do with my 10 mo DS. He is great during the day - Very easy angel baby personality. Eats well, plays nicely etc., but night time is really bad. We seem to be at the beginning of he 2-1 transition and lately he's been taking a long nap in the morning and a cat nap in the afternoon. (Some days the naps are more balanced.) He goes in nicely and puts himself to sleep. Same thing at bed time, he drinks his bottle, burps and goes to sleep nicely. Starting from around 10 or 11 pm he continuously wakes up. He isn't hungry. Sometimes he'll takes his pacifier and go back to sleep and other times it's endless. He cries, I calm him down, quiet for a few minutes and then the same thing again. The past two nights he lay awake for hours. Not crying, just up. Then crying started after around 2 hours. I believe we've had maybe 2 decent nights sleep since the baby nurse we had when he was a newborn.
Any insights? TIA

[trimbler]

Oh dear (((hugs))) you must be exhausted! Could you post his day for us in EASY format, it doesn't matter if they're all a bit different, you could post a couple of recent days perhaps, so we can hunt for clues in his routine. Please include his mood at different points during the day, eg before/after naps. Has he eaten anything new recently? Any developmental spurts going on?

Have a read of this, if you haven't already, may give you more ideas:
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[MommyN]

Could you post his day for us in EASY format,

I was afraid you'd ask me that I'm so tired that the days and nights are one big blur, but I will make an effort over the next couple of days to keep track.
I do think he may be getting some teeth. I gave him a breadstick today when he was cranky and didn't seem to know what to do with himself and I think it helped him a bit.

[MommyN]

We are at the EAEASY
So today went:

WU 6:15 nursed and went back to sleep till 7:45
A solids breakfast at 8:15
E bottle at 10:15
S 10:30-11:50
A lunch at around 12:45
E bottle at 2:15
S tried to put him down numerous times and he would not settle
Out of sorts all afternoon
A Dinner a little after 5
S Bottle at 6:30 and then bad at around 6:45

He was pretty much happy in the morning and out of sorts all afternoon. Went down for morning nap and bedtime easily. I'm pretty certain now that he's teething. However, I think that our NW issue has been going on for so long - resurfacing again and again even after we were succesful using PU/PD to eliminate night feeds - that it can't just be from his current teething. Maybe I'm wrong and each time it's caused by something different?

[trimbler]

Thanks for that - I think it could well be routine related, the 2-1 is often quite tricky! Did you have a read of the 2-1 link I posted? So there are two options really, either start capping the morning nap in the hope of getting a longer pm nap (ie will be more tired and so settle more easily), or push out the morning nap in the hope of extending it and probably APOPing a CN in the afternoon. Which do you think sounds more realistic for you, and would fit in better? How long is that morning nap usually? If you want a long morning nap then you'll want to push out that first A already to aim for at least a 2h nap, preferably more. If you don't think that will work then you can start capping the first nap, perhaps at 1h, then try something like 2.5h later for an afternoon nap? Wdyt?

[MommyN]

I will try to push out the morning nap. Thanks.

He was up THE. ENTIRE. NIGHT!! Since 12:30 am! And now, unbelievably, he is happily playing on the floor. I don't get it! I am waiting to send DS1 to playgroup and then I will give him a big bottle and we will both go to sleep. I never did that before, but I can't worry about going off routine when I did not even get one bit of sleep last night and can't function.

[trimbler]

Oh dear poor you (((hugs))) hope you both managed to get that long nap! I guess we'll have to take it from where we are now, but I do suspect that in general he needs his A times pushing during the day, wdyt? Some LOs just have lower sleep needs than average and need long A times during the day to prevent long NWs. Of course there could be developmental stuff going on too - is he practising any new skills?

[MommyN]

Yes, we did! From about 10 to 1. He always needed short A times in the past. I guess that's all changing now... Hopefully we'll get some sleep tonight and work on pushing his nap a little later tomorrow. I'd rather his long nap be in the a.m. when DS1 is out, than in the p.m. when DS1 needs to be entertained, go to the park etc. I do think he's teething and just gave him some motrin when he woke up a little bit ago. He's been commando crawling and scooting for months, but now he's working on pushing up on his hands and knees - could be a factor? He just lays awake in his crib for hours on end.

Any suggestions as to what to do when he wakes up during the night? I've been going to him and giving him his paci, tucking him in, whispering "I love you" and going away. He's quiet for a few minutes and then cries out and the cycle repeats itself again and again and again. I do not think it's a sleep training issue. He's been putting himself to sleep practically since he's a newborn, knows how to self settle, replug his paci etc. I just don't get him! He's such an easy, happy baby. This morning after having been up since 12:30 am he was playing happily on his own.

[trimbler]

So glad you got a nice long nap Hard to tell just yet whether I'm right about needing more A time in the day - mine were short A LOs too and it took me a long time to realise that my DD's long NWs were actually OT rather than UT. So this may still be the case for yours... But I think either way pushing the first A would be a good step. Hopefully then the morning nap will get longer and later, and then if he's UT at night then the longer As should help; on the other hand if he's OT at night then a longer, later nap could help him not get OT in the afternoon, by having a shorter A to BT - do you think he'd manage a CN out and about, if that 's what you need to do with DS1?

As for crawling - definitely a possibility but if he's just lying there and not trying to move about then I'm not sure it's that... Unless he's just thinking about it very hard So how upset is he? I'd honestly leave him be if he's not upset, and do as little as possible if he is - whatever's needed to calm him, but if he's used to going to sleep independently (great!) then he could possibly find it confusing if you keep going to him? Don't just take my word for it though, you know him best and I'm just offering up whatever thoughts come into my head

I guess it's the fact that he seems to cope so well with having been up all night that makes me wonder if he might be LSN... What was it that showed you he needed short A times in the past?

[MommyN]

So how upset is he? I'd honestly leave him be if he's not upset, and do as little as possible if he is - whatever's needed to calm him, but if he's used to going to sleep independently (great!) then he could possibly find it confusing if you keep going to him?

He usually gets quite upset. There were a couple of times that we peeked in and noticed that he was awake but not crying. Generally the crying is pretty bad. I always wait a moment to see if he'll settle himself, but often when he wakes at night he's practically screaming. Then I calm him down without picking him up, he's quiet for a little and then starts up again. Last night he would not calm down till I picked him up.

When I was working out short naps a while back, we realized that if I waited too long he would not settle easily and take a short nap, but when A time was 2.5 hr he would go down nicely and sleep for 1.5 hr. We had two naps around 9:30-11 and 1/1:30 - 3/3:30. We did have some NWs, but not long ones like now.

Here are the past two days:

WU 6:30
S 10:30-11:30
S 2:50 - 3:30 (He was exhausted by then)
BT 6:45/7
He slept through till 1:30 and then the NWs began. He got pretty hysterical after around 2 hours of the usual. I took him out and did some apop (probably big mistake I know, but don't always think like that at 3:30 a.m. when on such a build up of exhaustion), eventually back to sleep till around 7:30.

WU 7:30
S 12:30- 3:15!!!!! He woke at around 1:50 and I cuddled him a little and got him back to sleep.
BT 7 - he was wide awake and happy. He started crying after a few minutes. I went in and held him for a minute, put him back down and then he went to sleep.

[MommyN]

Our days have become so inconsistent, which I'm sure is only making things worse. I feel like I'm just trying to keep him up for as long as I could and then putting him down. But he's up half the night every night and every day turns out differently. What should I be aiming for? Today he woke up at 7 and napped from 10:25-12:35. He did great with that 3.5 hr A time. But 2 hours after that nap he was already exhausted, and when I finally put him down after 2.5 hr A time it took time to get him settled (he usually goes right down without a fuss). I think I need a goal of specific times and need to work with those times for a few days to get some consistency. What nap times would make sense if we'd start our day at 7? What am I aiming for in terms of routine now at 10.5 months?

[trimbler]

Ok, it sounds like you're doing the best you can really at night, unless of course there's any discomfort going on, in which case pain meds or adjusting the room temperature or ...(fill in the blank) might help? I'll assume it's a routine thing for now, but keep an eye out for other signs of discomfort, just in case

As for the daytime routine, I'm so sorry I should have said, you'll probably get on best by pushing the A time a little more slowly - we don't have to get to one nap straight away, just take little steps towards that. From what you've posted of the last few days,  I think 4h is too much - that 1h nap was likely OT, which would explain why he got really tired later on. The 5h the next day seemed to make him crash, didn't it! Lovely long nap, but likely OT from the super long A time, how was the night after that? I wouldn't be surprised if he was extra tired the next day, which might explain why he got tired so quickly after that 2h nap. You felt that the 3.5h A time went well, so let's stick with that for a few days - wdyt? Or if you prefer, get him up at 7am every day regardless of what time he actually wakes (if earlier), and fix his first nap at 10:30am. Let's see how that goes in terms of that first nap length and how he handles the following A time. You may well find that he's a little more tired afterwards and settling better for his second nap - in which case, great, you're back on two reliable naps and can continue to tweak to minimise OT by BT I hesitate to suggest times for the second nap until we've had some consistency with the first nap - so continue doing what you're doing, ie putting him down when you think he's ready, and log what happens for a few days, then we'll be in a better position to decide what to try next? Does that sound like a plan?

[MommyN]

I think I'll go with getting up every day at 7 and set nap at 10:30 and see how that goes. Today's second nap was 3:10-3:55. BT did not go well at all. He did not take his bottle nicely and took a few times of me going back into the room and comforting/holding him till he was calm enough to go to sleep. I don't think he actually fell asleep till 7:15 the earliest. Nights have been pretty much the same (the only thing consistent around here  ). He sleeps like a little angel till 12/1 and then is up for HOURS! I am falling apart from exhaustion but trying my best to be a good mommy.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) you're doing so well, it is so hard when you're utterly sleep deprived What time did you try for BT today? Some LOs manage a nice catch up night with just a short A time after an afternoon CN, you could even aim for 6pm BT on a day like today, wdyt?

[MommyN]

I think I started his BT bottle at around 6:30. We'll see how today goes and maybe start at 6 instead.

Last night was definitely better in that he fell back asleep after the NWs. He first woke at around 10:30 from a dirty nappy. I changed him and he went back to sleep. He next woke at around 1:30. I was able to calm him down by shshing and keeping a hand on him. He went back to sleep after a few minutes and then woke at 5:30. I tried calming him but didn't work, so I nursed him and then put him back down. He woke up a few minutes later and I ended up bringing him into my bed till DH woke us in the morn. He was OT the whole morning from having been woken up and it took a lot of effort to keep him up. Could not go past 10. He slept till 11:20 and I kept him in the dark room till 12. At first he was fine with only his paci and blankie. I gave him toys after around 20 min.

He's got a runny nose now to add to the mix, but other than a decreased appetite he seems happy.