10 month old long NWs

[MommyN]

I am at a loss with what to do with my 10 mo DS. He is great during the day - Very easy angel baby personality. Eats well, plays nicely etc., but night time is really bad. We seem to be at the beginning of he 2-1 transition and lately he's been taking a long nap in the morning and a cat nap in the afternoon. (Some days the naps are more balanced.) He goes in nicely and puts himself to sleep. Same thing at bed time, he drinks his bottle, burps and goes to sleep nicely. Starting from around 10 or 11 pm he continuously wakes up. He isn't hungry. Sometimes he'll takes his pacifier and go back to sleep and other times it's endless. He cries, I calm him down, quiet for a few minutes and then the same thing again. The past two nights he lay awake for hours. Not crying, just up. Then crying started after around 2 hours. I believe we've had maybe 2 decent nights sleep since the baby nurse we had when he was a newborn.
Any insights? TIA

[trimbler]

Oh dear (((hugs))) you must be exhausted! Could you post his day for us in EASY format, it doesn't matter if they're all a bit different, you could post a couple of recent days perhaps, so we can hunt for clues in his routine. Please include his mood at different points during the day, eg before/after naps. Has he eaten anything new recently? Any developmental spurts going on?

Have a read of this, if you haven't already, may give you more ideas:
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[MommyN]

Could you post his day for us in EASY format,

I was afraid you'd ask me that I'm so tired that the days and nights are one big blur, but I will make an effort over the next couple of days to keep track.
I do think he may be getting some teeth. I gave him a breadstick today when he was cranky and didn't seem to know what to do with himself and I think it helped him a bit.

[MommyN]

We are at the EAEASY
So today went:

WU 6:15 nursed and went back to sleep till 7:45
A solids breakfast at 8:15
E bottle at 10:15
S 10:30-11:50
A lunch at around 12:45
E bottle at 2:15
S tried to put him down numerous times and he would not settle
Out of sorts all afternoon
A Dinner a little after 5
S Bottle at 6:30 and then bad at around 6:45

He was pretty much happy in the morning and out of sorts all afternoon. Went down for morning nap and bedtime easily. I'm pretty certain now that he's teething. However, I think that our NW issue has been going on for so long - resurfacing again and again even after we were succesful using PU/PD to eliminate night feeds - that it can't just be from his current teething. Maybe I'm wrong and each time it's caused by something different?

[trimbler]

Thanks for that - I think it could well be routine related, the 2-1 is often quite tricky! Did you have a read of the 2-1 link I posted? So there are two options really, either start capping the morning nap in the hope of getting a longer pm nap (ie will be more tired and so settle more easily), or push out the morning nap in the hope of extending it and probably APOPing a CN in the afternoon. Which do you think sounds more realistic for you, and would fit in better? How long is that morning nap usually? If you want a long morning nap then you'll want to push out that first A already to aim for at least a 2h nap, preferably more. If you don't think that will work then you can start capping the first nap, perhaps at 1h, then try something like 2.5h later for an afternoon nap? Wdyt?

[MommyN]

I will try to push out the morning nap. Thanks.

He was up THE. ENTIRE. NIGHT!! Since 12:30 am! And now, unbelievably, he is happily playing on the floor. I don't get it! I am waiting to send DS1 to playgroup and then I will give him a big bottle and we will both go to sleep. I never did that before, but I can't worry about going off routine when I did not even get one bit of sleep last night and can't function.

[trimbler]

Oh dear poor you (((hugs))) hope you both managed to get that long nap! I guess we'll have to take it from where we are now, but I do suspect that in general he needs his A times pushing during the day, wdyt? Some LOs just have lower sleep needs than average and need long A times during the day to prevent long NWs. Of course there could be developmental stuff going on too - is he practising any new skills?

[MommyN]

Yes, we did! From about 10 to 1. He always needed short A times in the past. I guess that's all changing now... Hopefully we'll get some sleep tonight and work on pushing his nap a little later tomorrow. I'd rather his long nap be in the a.m. when DS1 is out, than in the p.m. when DS1 needs to be entertained, go to the park etc. I do think he's teething and just gave him some motrin when he woke up a little bit ago. He's been commando crawling and scooting for months, but now he's working on pushing up on his hands and knees - could be a factor? He just lays awake in his crib for hours on end.

Any suggestions as to what to do when he wakes up during the night? I've been going to him and giving him his paci, tucking him in, whispering "I love you" and going away. He's quiet for a few minutes and then cries out and the cycle repeats itself again and again and again. I do not think it's a sleep training issue. He's been putting himself to sleep practically since he's a newborn, knows how to self settle, replug his paci etc. I just don't get him! He's such an easy, happy baby. This morning after having been up since 12:30 am he was playing happily on his own.

[trimbler]

So glad you got a nice long nap Hard to tell just yet whether I'm right about needing more A time in the day - mine were short A LOs too and it took me a long time to realise that my DD's long NWs were actually OT rather than UT. So this may still be the case for yours... But I think either way pushing the first A would be a good step. Hopefully then the morning nap will get longer and later, and then if he's UT at night then the longer As should help; on the other hand if he's OT at night then a longer, later nap could help him not get OT in the afternoon, by having a shorter A to BT - do you think he'd manage a CN out and about, if that 's what you need to do with DS1?

As for crawling - definitely a possibility but if he's just lying there and not trying to move about then I'm not sure it's that... Unless he's just thinking about it very hard So how upset is he? I'd honestly leave him be if he's not upset, and do as little as possible if he is - whatever's needed to calm him, but if he's used to going to sleep independently (great!) then he could possibly find it confusing if you keep going to him? Don't just take my word for it though, you know him best and I'm just offering up whatever thoughts come into my head

I guess it's the fact that he seems to cope so well with having been up all night that makes me wonder if he might be LSN... What was it that showed you he needed short A times in the past?

[MommyN]

So how upset is he? I'd honestly leave him be if he's not upset, and do as little as possible if he is - whatever's needed to calm him, but if he's used to going to sleep independently (great!) then he could possibly find it confusing if you keep going to him?

He usually gets quite upset. There were a couple of times that we peeked in and noticed that he was awake but not crying. Generally the crying is pretty bad. I always wait a moment to see if he'll settle himself, but often when he wakes at night he's practically screaming. Then I calm him down without picking him up, he's quiet for a little and then starts up again. Last night he would not calm down till I picked him up.

When I was working out short naps a while back, we realized that if I waited too long he would not settle easily and take a short nap, but when A time was 2.5 hr he would go down nicely and sleep for 1.5 hr. We had two naps around 9:30-11 and 1/1:30 - 3/3:30. We did have some NWs, but not long ones like now.

Here are the past two days:

WU 6:30
S 10:30-11:30
S 2:50 - 3:30 (He was exhausted by then)
BT 6:45/7
He slept through till 1:30 and then the NWs began. He got pretty hysterical after around 2 hours of the usual. I took him out and did some apop (probably big mistake I know, but don't always think like that at 3:30 a.m. when on such a build up of exhaustion), eventually back to sleep till around 7:30.

WU 7:30
S 12:30- 3:15!!!!! He woke at around 1:50 and I cuddled him a little and got him back to sleep.
BT 7 - he was wide awake and happy. He started crying after a few minutes. I went in and held him for a minute, put him back down and then he went to sleep.

[MommyN]

Our days have become so inconsistent, which I'm sure is only making things worse. I feel like I'm just trying to keep him up for as long as I could and then putting him down. But he's up half the night every night and every day turns out differently. What should I be aiming for? Today he woke up at 7 and napped from 10:25-12:35. He did great with that 3.5 hr A time. But 2 hours after that nap he was already exhausted, and when I finally put him down after 2.5 hr A time it took time to get him settled (he usually goes right down without a fuss). I think I need a goal of specific times and need to work with those times for a few days to get some consistency. What nap times would make sense if we'd start our day at 7? What am I aiming for in terms of routine now at 10.5 months?

[trimbler]

Ok, it sounds like you're doing the best you can really at night, unless of course there's any discomfort going on, in which case pain meds or adjusting the room temperature or ...(fill in the blank) might help? I'll assume it's a routine thing for now, but keep an eye out for other signs of discomfort, just in case

As for the daytime routine, I'm so sorry I should have said, you'll probably get on best by pushing the A time a little more slowly - we don't have to get to one nap straight away, just take little steps towards that. From what you've posted of the last few days,  I think 4h is too much - that 1h nap was likely OT, which would explain why he got really tired later on. The 5h the next day seemed to make him crash, didn't it! Lovely long nap, but likely OT from the super long A time, how was the night after that? I wouldn't be surprised if he was extra tired the next day, which might explain why he got tired so quickly after that 2h nap. You felt that the 3.5h A time went well, so let's stick with that for a few days - wdyt? Or if you prefer, get him up at 7am every day regardless of what time he actually wakes (if earlier), and fix his first nap at 10:30am. Let's see how that goes in terms of that first nap length and how he handles the following A time. You may well find that he's a little more tired afterwards and settling better for his second nap - in which case, great, you're back on two reliable naps and can continue to tweak to minimise OT by BT I hesitate to suggest times for the second nap until we've had some consistency with the first nap - so continue doing what you're doing, ie putting him down when you think he's ready, and log what happens for a few days, then we'll be in a better position to decide what to try next? Does that sound like a plan?

[MommyN]

I think I'll go with getting up every day at 7 and set nap at 10:30 and see how that goes. Today's second nap was 3:10-3:55. BT did not go well at all. He did not take his bottle nicely and took a few times of me going back into the room and comforting/holding him till he was calm enough to go to sleep. I don't think he actually fell asleep till 7:15 the earliest. Nights have been pretty much the same (the only thing consistent around here  ). He sleeps like a little angel till 12/1 and then is up for HOURS! I am falling apart from exhaustion but trying my best to be a good mommy.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) you're doing so well, it is so hard when you're utterly sleep deprived What time did you try for BT today? Some LOs manage a nice catch up night with just a short A time after an afternoon CN, you could even aim for 6pm BT on a day like today, wdyt?

[MommyN]

I think I started his BT bottle at around 6:30. We'll see how today goes and maybe start at 6 instead.

Last night was definitely better in that he fell back asleep after the NWs. He first woke at around 10:30 from a dirty nappy. I changed him and he went back to sleep. He next woke at around 1:30. I was able to calm him down by shshing and keeping a hand on him. He went back to sleep after a few minutes and then woke at 5:30. I tried calming him but didn't work, so I nursed him and then put him back down. He woke up a few minutes later and I ended up bringing him into my bed till DH woke us in the morn. He was OT the whole morning from having been woken up and it took a lot of effort to keep him up. Could not go past 10. He slept till 11:20 and I kept him in the dark room till 12. At first he was fine with only his paci and blankie. I gave him toys after around 20 min.

He's got a runny nose now to add to the mix, but other than a decreased appetite he seems happy.

[trimbler]

Aw poor thing, it's hard to work around EWs isn't it? Yes I'd definitely try EBT if you can, especially after a short afternoon nap. Mine could just about do 13h nights when really tired; when I chickened out they'd wake early due to OT. Night time nappies are so frustrating, aren't they!

[MommyN]

We're still working on getting a good first nap at 10:30 and early BT. He napped from10:30-12:15 yesterday. Thing is the last two days he completely resisted the p.m. nap so BT was a little harder. I heard him wake up and resettle himself twice last night. But then at around 5 he was up and I could not get him back to sleep. I'm assuming OT? What do I do when he absolutely won't sleep in the afternoon? And when he wakes so early do I still wait to put him in at 10:30? I'm confused now because it does make sense that he may be LSN but how can he still be UT if he's getting so little sleep overall?! DS1 is HSN and very often does 13 hr nights +. I wonder if DS2 is also HSN and is just so thoroughly OT but because of the angel personality is doing okay when awake?  He is perfectly cheerful now at 9:30 a.m.

[trimbler]

Hmm that's a tough one isn't it! So what time did he get to sleep at BT yesterday, how long was his A time?

Is there any way you can APOP a nap in the afternoon?

You really have two options - to continue to push out that morning nap (gently) in the hope that it gets longer and then he doesn't need an afternoon nap, or, to pull it back a little and cap it, in the hope that he'll then be tired enough for an afternoon nap. Which way you go will likely depend on whether he really is LSN or as you say, very OT... I can't remember if I mentioned this on your thread,but my DD is quite HSN but got into a big OT cycle last summer, I thought she needed A times extending but she just ended up getting more and more OT until it just became really obvious that we needed to get more sleep into her. So perhaps you'll find that it gets obvious that he really is very tired - or perhaps you'll just notice that despite his decrease in overall sleep, he's doing just fine with that. Sorry that's not really an answer is it, I think you'll be the best judge of which one it is, by doing as you're doing and observing how he responds to the amount of sleep he's getting. If you keep posting the actual timings of when he gets to sleep, what his nights are like, etc, we should be able to keep track a little better and perhaps together we'll spot a pattern

[MommyN]

Okay, I really must write everything down as the day goes along because I have such a fuzzy OT brain right now that I mix up what happens each day . I will post again in the morning with details.

[MommyN]

So yesterday we again had no afternoon nap 😞and BT at 6. He did not have a very good night. Long NW at 3 and WU by 6:10. Today he slept from 10-12 and from 2:45-3:15 (it took a half hour to get him to sleep in the afternoon). BT was 6. So far so good. I'm leaning more and more towards believing that he is in a vicious overtired cycle. I'm also nervous that I'm doing too much APOP.  I really don't want to do anything that will add to our sleep problems. I am currently lounging on the couch doing nothing as opposed to cleaning up as I'm just so tired  

[trimbler]

Yeah that looks like a good catch up day, tbh I'm not so surprised it took a while to get him to sleep just 2.5h or so after a 2h nap, did you try for that because he seemed so tired? I'd be inclined to leave it a bit longer before trying for the pm CN, and APOP that all you like as it won't always be there. I went the short am, long pm nap route with both of mine, so don't have such a good feel for the long am, pm CN route - but I'd be thinking try for around 3-3.5h A time after a nice long morning nap, wdyt? Then he won't need long after that until BT and hopefully not get too OT...

(((Hugs))) for the tiredness, it's hard isn't it?

[MommyN]

Hi sorry I haven't updated in a while. My computer crashed so I'm using my phone (it's slow. I really could use a new one...) and things have just been busy...
Nights are still a nightmare but days are getting a bit better So maybe that's a good sign??? The past two days he did an hour and 15 minute nap at around 10:45/11 and a short afternoon nap at 3. I'm hoping that morning nap will get a bit longer. Or is a bit over an hour plus a catnap sufficient? Seems like so little sleep for such a tiny one. I still can't tell if he's OT or UT

[MommyN]

Could it be we need some sleep training again? He's always fallen asleep independently but maybe he needs it for the middle of the night? I used PU/PD in the past to get rid of night feeds   Could these NWs just be a really bad habit? Or not because they're hours long? Tonight was the first time that he woke up crying and I went in and he had rolled over or sat up. But those are not new developments. He's been sitting since he's 5 months and rolling for ages- he's up to crawling and pulling up.
Our trip to visit family in the states is 8 weeks away and I'm terrified of what the jet lag will add to all of this.

[trimbler]

A lot can happen in 2mo, try not to worry too much about the trip, I know that's easy for me to say, but whatever happens, you'll all get through it and things will get back to normal afterwards, albeit after a few bumps, most likely

What A time has he been doing before that 1h15min nap the last couple of days?

As for sleep training - sorry, could you remind me what it is that you're doing when he wakes in the night? Tbh I suspect routine issues or discomfort with those long NWs, rather than 'just' a need for more sleep training, wdyt?

[MommyN]

I know I really shouldn't worry about the trip. I'm actually very excited to see my family, but I'm so nervous that we'll all be exhausted messes... I just need to stop thinking about it.

The A time before those naps were around 3hr15/30min. He did the same today.

When he wakes I usually try to shush him without picking him up and give him his paci and blankie. There were times that I resorted to APOP out of desperation. I don't think it's discomfort so that brings us back to routine. I'm going to try to be better about writing down the times...

[trimbler]

Oh I know what you mean - fwiw I'm already worrying about my SIL's wedding in April, which will involve a day's travelling followed by the wedding itself at DD's nap time, wedding brunch the next day (presumably also at DD's nap time) and travel home again the following day for work the next - potentially four consecutive days without a nap for my HSN girl so yes, I do understand your concerns and of course with jet lag on top... But you'll get through it

I do wonder about pushing that first A time a bit more, to get a nice long first nap - intrigued as to how the night went after that day when he woke at 6:10, did almost 4h A followed by a 2h nap and then had a 30min CN in the afternoon? I just feel if you could get a nice long nap out of him, he could manage better the rest of the day and accrue the A time he needs without getting OT, wdyt?

Sounds like you're doing just right at night - what sort of APOP have you been doing, and how often?

[MommyN]

Thanks for the encouragement 

I see what you're saying about that day with 4hr A time. It's hard keeping him up so long but we're working on it. Right now he's got a nasty cold and an eye infection poor guy, so we're completely off. He seems to always get sick just as things are looking up  .

I'm embarrassed to say I've done the worst APOP possible- bringing him into my bed when I got really desperate, but I've stopped that now. I wait till  6 the earliest to nurse him.  Other times I just held him for a while. It seems like he's getting to the age where AP just doesn't work. If he won't go to sleep on his own he just won't sleep. If he's having a hard time settling down it often helps if I stay in the room saying "it's sleepy time. Shh..." Calmly over and over again. But usually not in the middle o the night.

[trimbler]

Aw poor thing, really hope he's feeling better soon

Please don't be embarrassed, the only reason I never coslept with mine is that I was petrified of squashing them somehow But sometimes you do just have to do what it takes to get you all through the night But it does sound like he needs to be more independent now, as you say, which can be hard as it's less in our control, but helpful in the long run. Sounds like you're doing just right by him, you know what he needs and when to hang back. No signs of teething at all? Right now the long NWs could easily be explained by the illness, but teething discomfort can go on for a while, or stop and start...

[MommyN]

Hi again. Thanks for your words on co sleeping. He's feeling better and I'm back to working on routine. We also moved him out of our room and in with his brother. It's Going okay in that they're not waking from each other when one cries during the night but the long NWs are still going strong. Last night he was up from 3-5!!

Today was:
WU: 6:40
S: 10:30-1!!!
BT: 5:45 because he wouldn't settle for afternoon nap

I don't suspect teething right now but I could be wrong, and like you say it comes and goes. I think we're going to need to stick to that 5:45 BT for a while because the afternoon catnap usually does not work out. Today's 2.5 hr nap was the first long nap in a while and I was so so happy! So for the next few day I'll do 4 hr A time but after that do I try to push it even more?

Thanks

[trimbler]

Glad he's feeling better Well done on the move - I still haven't been brave enough to do that so at 20mo she's still in with us

Great nap Yeah I think hold at 4h for a few days and then push out some more if you feel he can handle it. If he's getting some down time in the afternoon whilst trying for a second nap, that should help him to get through even if he doesn't settle for it. 13h nights are quite common during transitions, not all LOs can pull them off but he might just surprise you...really hope so! Intrigued to see how tonight goes?

[MommyN]

I was also terrified to move him in with his brother, but it was much easier than I anticipated. The first night was disastrous and I ended up bringing DS2 back into our room at around 3:15 a.m. But by he second night neither woke from the other. I was amazed and so pleased! I have to say it is very nice having our bedroom to ourselves again. I'm so not used to it that I keep on going in quietly without turning on the light lol till I remember... Best of luck for whenever you decide to do it. I will definitely let you know how the night goes. I'm so desperate for a good night's sleep.

[trimbler]

Hey there, sorry for the silence - how's it going?

[MommyN]

He slept through last night!!!!! There's hope! Funny enough because it was after a terrible napping weekend.

Wednesday night he woke up twice but I resettled him pretty easily. Up at 6 am.

Thursday:
WU: 6
S: 10-11:15
S: 2-3:15
BT: 6:30
Not a great night. NWs and then up at 5 crying till 6

Friday and Saturday were messy with short naps and late BTs and then surprise surprise, Saturday night he slept from 7:30-6:30! I don't even know what to take from it in terms of routine because the whole weekend was such a mess.  And he woke HSN dS1 at 6:30 

[MommyN]

Can we now safely assume that DS2 is a LSN child who was in an endless OT cycle? Or wait a bit to see if he continues to do 11hr nights? I wonder if I should try for a very late afternoon catnap (say 4:30ish) and a later BT and then pray that he sleeps till 6:30? I've been putting him to bed before DS1 but now if he's going to be waking his bro up early in the mornings DS1 really needs to be asleep by 6. I'm thinking of putting big brother in first and waiting to put little brother in till later. Wdyt?

I'm going to check out the easy board to see if I can find some routines of LSN one year olds.

[trimbler]

So glad to hear you got a good night, finally shame about waking his brother though with just one night though, it's hard to say whether he just crashed from exhaustion after the little sleep he'd had previously, or if he indeed doesn't need so much daytime sleep. You'll need to watch how he is during the day... How was he today after the 11h night? I imagine that if he just needed to crash through mega tiredness, he would still have been very tired today, otherwise if he seemed well rested then maybe he'd just had enough sleep. Could you post what happened on Friday and Saturday?

I'm wondering how he's getting on with the 4h A time in the morning? Those 1h 15min naps could be OT or UT... Watch out for OT building up over a few days, if 4h is too long. Conversely, if he seems to be managing fine and seems well rested after his 1h 15min morning nap, then perhaps it's time to push that first A even further, to try and lengthen that nap again. Then it would be easier to do a late afternoon CN.

[MommyN]

Oh I just typed up a whole response that got lost.

He was happy today. But then again he usually is as long as it's not sleep time.
WU 6:30
S 10:30 -12
BT 6:15

He seemed very tired by the end of the 4 hr morning A time but  was happy all afternoon and went to bed nicely at 6:15.  I am so utterly confused with him!! How can 12.5 hr total sleep be sufficient for a nearly 12 mo?!?! He is a happy pleasant adorable baby no matter how much sleep he gets but is impossible at night!

I do think I should push the nap out more but it's hard to keep him up. Can that just be habit and really he could handle being up longer?  He'll stay up 6 hrs or more in the  afternoon without a problem.

Friday and Saturday are a blur but I'll remember as best as I could
Friday:
WU around 5 crying on and off till 7
S 11-11:40 ( woke up from my neighbor's rooster! I seriously wish I could shoot the thing. This is an urban neighborhood not a farm!  >:(Sorry just had to have a vent)
S around 2-2:30 woke for dirty nappy
BT around 7

Saturday:
WU 5 eventually back to sleep till 7:45
S 11-11:45 now I see likely UT. Not sure why I put him in then
S 3:15/3:30-5
BT 7:30 slept till 6:30

Both nights had some other NWs. Can't recall when and for how long. All the sleepless nights became one big mush in my memory after a while...

[MommyN]

Last night he was up from 3:40 till around 5:25/30  Then back to sleep till 7

WU: 7
S: 11:45-1:20
BT: 6:30

Was a bit of a crazy day because DS1 is not feeling well but DS2 was pretty much happy the whole day. He went in for nap and BT without a fuss.

[trimbler]

Ooh it is tricky isn't it... I was interested to see Saturday's routine actually, it reminds me of the sort of thing which used to work well for my DS. That also fits with what you said about him struggling with long morning A times but easily doing long A times in the afternoon - that's just how my DS was too. So anyway, here's a suggestion to consider - how about going for a slightly UT morning nap, expecting it to be short (or even actively capping it) in the hope of getting a nice long afternoon nap? I found the long pm nap was key for DS as he could then manage a long A to BT, and the combination of those things helped him get a good night. Actually looking at Saturday, perhaps he needs more like 13.5h total sleep? I agree that 12.5h is low, some may do that but those EWs with getting back to sleep afterwards sound like possible OT to me, he may not quite be ready for one nap just yet, or alternatively you may find he can cope well one day but not the next - many LOs go through a phase like that.

This short am nap, long pm nap can be tricky to get the timings right as each LO may be a bit different, but how about something like:

WU 7am
Nap 10-10:30 (wake him if he doesn't wake himself)
Nap 1:30-3:30 (this is where you'll need to play around with A times etc)
BT 8pm

Just suggesting that as it's 13.5h overall, has a long pm A time and 11h night, ie as he did Saturday, but it'll be a lot of trial and error to see what works best. Something to consider, perhaps?

[MommyN]

At this point I'm willing to try anything that may help him STTN. I will miss that long am nap, but if it's not working then it's not fair for me to do that to him, or to the rest of the family for that matter. We all need to sleep at night to function properly...

He woke up with a fever so I'll probably have to wait till he's better. I really hope he didn't catch his brother's hand foot mouth disease! That would be horrible for him poor baby 

[trimbler]

Oh no I hope not either! (((Hugs)))

[zissi]

hey there,
I have been following your thread as we are going through long NW's too. and one thing I noticed with my LSN baby is that she needs to have a day of at least 13hrs to prevent NW's. My dd is 9 months and has an A time of 4 hours which is rather high, I need to wake her from the naps after an hr max and as I said if she gets up at 7am her BT can't be before 8pm. I know that can be tricky if you think your LO needs an early BT due to no second nap. just a thought from me that your LO could be similar?

[MommyN]

Thanks zissi, I will keep that in mind for when he gets better. I'm still not sure how much is from LSN (until a few months ago he did great with short A times so confused  ) and how much is OT. I'm going to try morning catnap and long afternoon nap.
I'm sorry for your NWs . How are you handling the exhaustion?

[zissi]

Im taking turns with DH, he does the first shift and gets me around 2/3am and I do the second shift. (I sleep in the guest room and then him) I also go to bed very early to get the most sleep. and we don't have long NW's all the time, some nights are good. hope things will improve for you soon! if he is LSN its def worth a try! and the first months of my DD's life she had very short A times, it started to change when she was around 5/6 months.

[MommyN]

He is feeling much better now! Thank heavens it was some sort of 48 hr virus and not the HFM!!

He woke up at 6:30, so I tried to put him in at 9:30 for a catnap. He would not go to sleep. I tried again a little later and same thing. I guess he's getting used to the longer morning A times? He went in nicely at 10:30. So that's a 4 hr A time.

I just reviewed this entire thread. What popped out at me is this:

Today was:
WU: 6:40
S: 10:30-1!!!
BT: 5:45 because he wouldn't settle for afternoon nap

And that night he slept pretty well. He woke up but resettled right away and slept till 6. That's 14hr 45min total sleep. The next day he did two 1 hr 15 min naps and had a bad night with long NWs. I think I should stick to working on getting that morning nap longer and doing a very early BT for now. If he sleeps less than 2 hrs would put him in 5:15/5:30. He refuses the afternoon nap but usually has no problem with an early BT.  Based on his history and his family, I think he needs more sleep. He has a very easygoing personality and I believe that is what keeps him going when he is low on sleep. What do you think? I honestly think he is OT.

He was OT last night from 2 days of being unwell with little and inconsistent sleep. He crashed at 6:30 (fell asleep half way through his bottle) and had an hr long NW. There was no way that NW was from  UT. This kind of proves to me even more that he needs more sleep. Do you agree?

[MommyN]

Today so far:

WU: 6:30
S: 10:30-11:50. Woke up screaming and still tired. I worked on getting him back to sleep for 20 min but no luck. I think he was hungry. We are working on less bottles and more solids and he's not used to it yet.

I will try for a catnap and if that doesn't work will do 5:30 BT

[trimbler]

I think you've done a lot of thinking around this and you know him best, so yes definitely go with your mummy instincts I have definitely seen long NWs caused by OT so that seems very plausible to me.

Bear in mind that day when he did the lovely long nap was on slightly less than 4h A time - that 1h 20min nap on 4h A could well have been OT, or of course hunger could have contributed.

Another thing to consider, just based on that other day when he slept better at night - you may want to go for a morning CN (UT, eg 3h A, and wake after 30-45min) and longer pm nap on days when he seems very tired in the morning or has had an especially bad night. You'll have to play it by ear a bit, but many LOs find they need to chop and change between one nap and two nap days for a while, often quite a long while, before they're ready to drop the second nap completely. Generally they need to be able to manage 4.5-5h A consistently, I think. Also bear in mind that two nap days often will have less overall sleep than one nap days, I certainly noticed mine slept a little more overall after dropping a nap. It's like they needed more total sleep to make up for the increase in A times from dropping the nap. So he may need 14h45mins on one nap days, but a bit less on two nap days, if that makes sense?

[MommyN]

Sorry for the silence. I've been ill and haven't really been keeping track. For the past few days I put him down in the morning when he seemed tired without timing A times (had no head for that- still don't actually) and he's been doing 2.5-2hr45min naps!! With those naps and the early BTs we're finally seeing some improvement. He did wake up few times during the night but at least he wasn't up for hours- we got him back to sleep quite easily. I think I'll stick with this for a few days to see if the short NWs seem habitual. Does that make sense?

I did try the morning CN but I couldn't get him to settle. I will keep in mind what you said about overall sleep based on if he takes one or two naps. Thanks!

[trimbler]

Sorry you've been ill, really hope you're feeling better soon

Sounds like you've given him a great opportunity to catch up a bit Yes carry on like that if it still seems to be working for him, although bear in mind that it's possible he may suddenly find he's caught up on sleep and needs a bit less again, or perhaps you've both found his ideal routine If you feel up to it,  you could always start noting what happens with timings, no need to act on them just yet, but it could help later so you know what to aim for.