10 month old long NWs

[trimbler]

Aw poor thing, it's hard to work around EWs isn't it? Yes I'd definitely try EBT if you can, especially after a short afternoon nap. Mine could just about do 13h nights when really tired; when I chickened out they'd wake early due to OT. Night time nappies are so frustrating, aren't they!

[MommyN]

We're still working on getting a good first nap at 10:30 and early BT. He napped from10:30-12:15 yesterday. Thing is the last two days he completely resisted the p.m. nap so BT was a little harder. I heard him wake up and resettle himself twice last night. But then at around 5 he was up and I could not get him back to sleep. I'm assuming OT? What do I do when he absolutely won't sleep in the afternoon? And when he wakes so early do I still wait to put him in at 10:30? I'm confused now because it does make sense that he may be LSN but how can he still be UT if he's getting so little sleep overall?! DS1 is HSN and very often does 13 hr nights +. I wonder if DS2 is also HSN and is just so thoroughly OT but because of the angel personality is doing okay when awake?  He is perfectly cheerful now at 9:30 a.m.

[trimbler]

Hmm that's a tough one isn't it! So what time did he get to sleep at BT yesterday, how long was his A time?

Is there any way you can APOP a nap in the afternoon?

You really have two options - to continue to push out that morning nap (gently) in the hope that it gets longer and then he doesn't need an afternoon nap, or, to pull it back a little and cap it, in the hope that he'll then be tired enough for an afternoon nap. Which way you go will likely depend on whether he really is LSN or as you say, very OT... I can't remember if I mentioned this on your thread,but my DD is quite HSN but got into a big OT cycle last summer, I thought she needed A times extending but she just ended up getting more and more OT until it just became really obvious that we needed to get more sleep into her. So perhaps you'll find that it gets obvious that he really is very tired - or perhaps you'll just notice that despite his decrease in overall sleep, he's doing just fine with that. Sorry that's not really an answer is it, I think you'll be the best judge of which one it is, by doing as you're doing and observing how he responds to the amount of sleep he's getting. If you keep posting the actual timings of when he gets to sleep, what his nights are like, etc, we should be able to keep track a little better and perhaps together we'll spot a pattern

[MommyN]

Okay, I really must write everything down as the day goes along because I have such a fuzzy OT brain right now that I mix up what happens each day . I will post again in the morning with details.

[MommyN]

So yesterday we again had no afternoon nap 😞and BT at 6. He did not have a very good night. Long NW at 3 and WU by 6:10. Today he slept from 10-12 and from 2:45-3:15 (it took a half hour to get him to sleep in the afternoon). BT was 6. So far so good. I'm leaning more and more towards believing that he is in a vicious overtired cycle. I'm also nervous that I'm doing too much APOP.  I really don't want to do anything that will add to our sleep problems. I am currently lounging on the couch doing nothing as opposed to cleaning up as I'm just so tired  

[trimbler]

Yeah that looks like a good catch up day, tbh I'm not so surprised it took a while to get him to sleep just 2.5h or so after a 2h nap, did you try for that because he seemed so tired? I'd be inclined to leave it a bit longer before trying for the pm CN, and APOP that all you like as it won't always be there. I went the short am, long pm nap route with both of mine, so don't have such a good feel for the long am, pm CN route - but I'd be thinking try for around 3-3.5h A time after a nice long morning nap, wdyt? Then he won't need long after that until BT and hopefully not get too OT...

(((Hugs))) for the tiredness, it's hard isn't it?

[MommyN]

Hi sorry I haven't updated in a while. My computer crashed so I'm using my phone (it's slow. I really could use a new one...) and things have just been busy...
Nights are still a nightmare but days are getting a bit better So maybe that's a good sign??? The past two days he did an hour and 15 minute nap at around 10:45/11 and a short afternoon nap at 3. I'm hoping that morning nap will get a bit longer. Or is a bit over an hour plus a catnap sufficient? Seems like so little sleep for such a tiny one. I still can't tell if he's OT or UT

[MommyN]

Could it be we need some sleep training again? He's always fallen asleep independently but maybe he needs it for the middle of the night? I used PU/PD in the past to get rid of night feeds   Could these NWs just be a really bad habit? Or not because they're hours long? Tonight was the first time that he woke up crying and I went in and he had rolled over or sat up. But those are not new developments. He's been sitting since he's 5 months and rolling for ages- he's up to crawling and pulling up.
Our trip to visit family in the states is 8 weeks away and I'm terrified of what the jet lag will add to all of this.

[trimbler]

A lot can happen in 2mo, try not to worry too much about the trip, I know that's easy for me to say, but whatever happens, you'll all get through it and things will get back to normal afterwards, albeit after a few bumps, most likely

What A time has he been doing before that 1h15min nap the last couple of days?

As for sleep training - sorry, could you remind me what it is that you're doing when he wakes in the night? Tbh I suspect routine issues or discomfort with those long NWs, rather than 'just' a need for more sleep training, wdyt?

[MommyN]

I know I really shouldn't worry about the trip. I'm actually very excited to see my family, but I'm so nervous that we'll all be exhausted messes... I just need to stop thinking about it.

The A time before those naps were around 3hr15/30min. He did the same today.

When he wakes I usually try to shush him without picking him up and give him his paci and blankie. There were times that I resorted to APOP out of desperation. I don't think it's discomfort so that brings us back to routine. I'm going to try to be better about writing down the times...

[trimbler]

Oh I know what you mean - fwiw I'm already worrying about my SIL's wedding in April, which will involve a day's travelling followed by the wedding itself at DD's nap time, wedding brunch the next day (presumably also at DD's nap time) and travel home again the following day for work the next - potentially four consecutive days without a nap for my HSN girl so yes, I do understand your concerns and of course with jet lag on top... But you'll get through it

I do wonder about pushing that first A time a bit more, to get a nice long first nap - intrigued as to how the night went after that day when he woke at 6:10, did almost 4h A followed by a 2h nap and then had a 30min CN in the afternoon? I just feel if you could get a nice long nap out of him, he could manage better the rest of the day and accrue the A time he needs without getting OT, wdyt?

Sounds like you're doing just right at night - what sort of APOP have you been doing, and how often?

[MommyN]

Thanks for the encouragement 

I see what you're saying about that day with 4hr A time. It's hard keeping him up so long but we're working on it. Right now he's got a nasty cold and an eye infection poor guy, so we're completely off. He seems to always get sick just as things are looking up  .

I'm embarrassed to say I've done the worst APOP possible- bringing him into my bed when I got really desperate, but I've stopped that now. I wait till  6 the earliest to nurse him.  Other times I just held him for a while. It seems like he's getting to the age where AP just doesn't work. If he won't go to sleep on his own he just won't sleep. If he's having a hard time settling down it often helps if I stay in the room saying "it's sleepy time. Shh..." Calmly over and over again. But usually not in the middle o the night.

[trimbler]

Aw poor thing, really hope he's feeling better soon

Please don't be embarrassed, the only reason I never coslept with mine is that I was petrified of squashing them somehow But sometimes you do just have to do what it takes to get you all through the night But it does sound like he needs to be more independent now, as you say, which can be hard as it's less in our control, but helpful in the long run. Sounds like you're doing just right by him, you know what he needs and when to hang back. No signs of teething at all? Right now the long NWs could easily be explained by the illness, but teething discomfort can go on for a while, or stop and start...

[MommyN]

Hi again. Thanks for your words on co sleeping. He's feeling better and I'm back to working on routine. We also moved him out of our room and in with his brother. It's Going okay in that they're not waking from each other when one cries during the night but the long NWs are still going strong. Last night he was up from 3-5!!

Today was:
WU: 6:40
S: 10:30-1!!!
BT: 5:45 because he wouldn't settle for afternoon nap

I don't suspect teething right now but I could be wrong, and like you say it comes and goes. I think we're going to need to stick to that 5:45 BT for a while because the afternoon catnap usually does not work out. Today's 2.5 hr nap was the first long nap in a while and I was so so happy! So for the next few day I'll do 4 hr A time but after that do I try to push it even more?

Thanks

[trimbler]

Glad he's feeling better Well done on the move - I still haven't been brave enough to do that so at 20mo she's still in with us

Great nap Yeah I think hold at 4h for a few days and then push out some more if you feel he can handle it. If he's getting some down time in the afternoon whilst trying for a second nap, that should help him to get through even if he doesn't settle for it. 13h nights are quite common during transitions, not all LOs can pull them off but he might just surprise you...really hope so! Intrigued to see how tonight goes?