Feeling discouraged with shush pat at nap time

[Mads.mama]

Our baby is 5 months old and 10 days. As of yesterday, we've started putting him in his crib for nap time. Before that, I would breastfeed baby and he would fall asleep in my arms after breastfeeding. If he woke up before his nap time was over, i'd give him a breast. I did this for 5 months :\

I was using breastfeeding as a prop to keep my LO asleep for naps, but i want to break him of that prop. Plus, i want to be able to do things around the house during his nap times instead of holding him until his nap time is over.

So far, after breastfeeding, we are able to put him in the crib and he sleeps for the first 45 minutes (2 naps 1 1/2-2 hours and 1 CN at 40 minutes). After 45 minutes he wakes up. I go in and start doing shush patting. I try to turn him on his side to do shush patting on his back, but he resists being turned on his side so I pat him lightly on the chest and legs, but he doesn't calm down. I then pick him up, patting and shushing him over my shoulder, until he's completely calm. I then put him back down in his crib, but he wakes and starts crying again. I do shush patting in the crib with no luck, then pick him up and shush pat over my shoulder. Today it took about 30 minutes to get him calm again and sleeping once more. LO didn't even sleep for his CN. Am i doing this correctly or am i introducing a new prop/accidental parenting? I don't want to confuse our LO.

Am I doing shush pat correctly? Feeling very discouraged, exhausted and baby is getting OT. Tomorrow will be the third day doing shush pat.

Thank you,
Grace

[Odin's_mom]

I'm not sure if this would work with your little one but with my first son I would go in about 10 mins before he would normally wake (so probably at about 35 mins) and lightly touch his cheek.  He would stir a bit but not wake up and that is supposed to send him back into a deeper sleep.  What is happening at 45 mins is that one sleep cycle is done and your little one can't fall back asleep.  I don't have an answer for the shush/pat part unfortunately. 

We have also done some accidental parenting with our new little one and need to get him off the breastfeeding to sleep and transitioned to a crib so I will be following along with the other advice you are given.  My little guy gets so upset when I try shush/pat that don't even get that first 45 mins yet.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for the advice! I didn't know that about the 45 minute cycle. I'll try that technique at 35 minutes.

[Odin's_mom]

I think it's called wake-to-sleep.  It's also from the BW

[creations]

Hi there Mads.mama and welcome to BW forums
Here's a link to the W2S method (waake-to-sleep) so you can read a bit more about it
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

With regards to your description of shush/pat it sounds like you're doing great, staying calm and keeping going   What you need to bare in mind is that baby has been taught to feed to sleep and has know this for 5 months now, so 3 days of moving towards a different method of going to sleep is not so many days really. Shush/pat (as with all the BW methods) is a very useful and respectful method, reassures baby and teaches her that she is safe to fall asleep independently. But it's not a magic wand and the independent sleep is not going to happen immediately.  Whilst it might be a lot of work to help LO become confident and happy to sleep alone, it is well worth the time and effort, once he is napping well and self settling you will have some Y time (finally) and can rest (long over due after 5 months of holding for naps) or crack on with those things around the house.

In addition you may need a change in your routine times, as pp has rightly said sleep cycles end at 40 or 45 mins (usually) if your LO wakes at this time it is usually an indication of either:
- that he is UT (under tired) and needs a bit more activity before going to sleep
- that he has never learned to self settle so when he wakes at the end of the cycle he doesn’t know how to go back to sleep without your help.
Or it could be a combination of both.  The W2S method could well help here.

Thanks Odin's_mom too for paying it forward and supporting in the community - much appreciated

Mads.mama, could you begin to record your LOs EAS times please. It would help the community support you if we were able to have a look at your current routine - record the actual times things happen, rather thna what you might hope for, so we can see exactly when LO sleeps and wakes.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for the advice creations! It gives me encouragement to know that I'm at least doing shush pat correctly.

Below is baby's routine:

Wake up: 7am
Active: 7-9am
Feed: 9am
Sleep: 9:30am-11am (ideally, but baby wakes after 45 minutes, I do 30 minutes of shush pat and baby is sleeping again, but only for another 15 minutes)
Active: 11am-1pm
Feed: 1pm
Sleep: 1:30pm-3pm (ideally, but baby wakes after 45 minutes, I do 30 minutes of shush pat and baby is sleeping again, but only for another 15 minutes)
Active: 3pm-5pm
Feed: 5pm
Sleep: 5:30pm-6:10pm (catnap)
Active/get ready for bedtime: 6:10pm-8pm
nurse to sleep: 8pm

Thank you!

[creations]

Sorry can you just clarify - are you still feeding to sleep for the naps or are you feeding then using shush/pat whilst LO is awake and then putting him in his cot awake to fall asleep in the cot?  Are you patting him all the way to sleep or until drowsy?
I thought on my first read you had dropped the feed to sleep prop but on looking again I am not so sure. Don't worry we will support you either way, we just need to know where you are up to so we can give suitable advice.

[Mads.mama]

LO is breastfed so he still wakes up at night for feedings. 5am is usually the last breastfeed for the night before he wakes for the day at 7am. Since LO is fed throughout the night, he's not hungry in the morning and would rather play. I've tried to feed him when he wakes, but he refuses.

When I breastfeed LO, it's a full feed (in other words, I don't breastfeed him for the sole purpose of getting him drowsy enough for nap time). Does that routine fall under the category of nursing him to sleep for naps because his E happens before his S? I'll breastfeed for about 30 minutes and then he'll be sleepy when we're done.

I'll carry him over and set him into his crib. He's still drowsy at that time, but falls right to sleep and then naps for 45 minutes then wakes up so I go in and do shush pat for about 30 minutes then he falls back to sleep for 15 minutes and wakes again. :/

[creations]

Does that routine fall under the category of nursing him to sleep for naps because his E happens before his S?

No, it counts as feeding to sleep if he actually falls to sleep.  However, the drowsy part might be helping him get to sleep initially for the nap which means he isn't fully learning to self settle, it's just handy to know when looking at the bigger picture that's all.  If you can separate E and S a little more he is more likely to learn to transition from one cycle to another on his own, this is the part where he wakes at 45 mins and is hard to get back to sleep, he just hasn't learned how yet.
I wonder if you could bring your E something like 30 mins earlier so that it is a little more distanced from S?

Your A times are looking pretty normal for age which is why I'm looking at other areas which might be impacting on his ability to settle.  I think if you can move E a bit further from S so that when he is going for his nap the only drowsiness he has it true tiredness (rather than that cute milk-drunken drowsiness) then you have a better chance of teaching him to self settle and that in turn will help to teach him to transition without help.  It's a process. If we then see that he isn't actually tired enough for a nap (and it was just the milk making him sleepy) then we can think about increasing his A time.
It is of course possible to increase his A time now which may help...but may not...it's hard to know when you're just setting out on sleep training.

hope this helps

[Bella89]

If I may add to my pp, I think I read somewhere that nursing to sleep can help calm down some babies, but they will be uncomfortable with the full belly when they are asleep. I wonder if this is the case here...
Is there a particular reason you BF after A time during the day?
Also, what times you BF at night? I had the same issue with DS, but it helped to eliminate 1 NF. I didn't want to teach him not to have breakfast, so tried that and it worked:)

[Mads.mama]

Thank you Creations and Bella89 for your response!

I've tried to BF our LO after he wakes up from his naps, but he just wants to get up and play and won't latch. I've been successful in getting him to latch after he wakes a few times, but he only BF on one breast and then refuses to latch to the other breast. This was after 4 hours from when he last ate so he should have been plenty hungry. If i'm trying to change his routine, should i just let him not latch onto the other breast so he's very hungry for the next feed? I'm just concerned that he'll be too hungry and won't sleep well for his nap.

At night time, I BF at 7:30pm, baby falls asleep at 8pm then at 11pm he wakes again for another BF then falls back asleep. After that, he wakes every 2 hours and I breastfeed him each time

Today is our 8th day on shush/pat. At day 5 and 6 it seemed like it was working, then after that I haven't had any luck.

[Bella89]

Today is our 8th day on shush/pat. At day 5 and 6 it seemed like it was working, then after that I haven't had any luck.

First of all I think I read that it's normal. A regression. Try to stay consistent and we will see what will happen.

5mo is an age when a baby can be persistent on when he doesn't want to eat, but can also demand food when he is really, really hungry. I am not a long time BF-der, so I will try to call for backup for you, but in my opinion if he eats 1 breast he will be able to get to another feeding with a little fussing. Try to wait 10-20 min from when he wakes up, it helped us. DS was not hungry right after WU. With the NF, if he wakes up every 2h then, are your breasts full? Does he eat both?

[Mads.mama]

Today I'm trying to give LO more A time in hopes that his nap will go more smoothly and hopefully he is truly tired rather than milk sleepy. I've spaced out his E before his S too so hoping he learns to self settle and the full stomach won't bother him. Still trying to transition LO to EAS rather than AES. I've been doing wake to sleep every 30 minutes to get him to start a new sleep cycle. I was wondering, how does wake to sleep teach baby to self settle?

For NF, breasts are somewhat full after each 2 hour wake up. LO only feeds for a few minutes on one breast then falls asleep again. I try to get him on the other breast, but he's already fast asleep. So every 2 hours I just put him on the breast he didn't feed on.

So very tired and trying to stay motivated and positive. 

[creations]

You're doing really well, hang in there!!

I was wondering, how does wake to sleep teach baby to self settle?

Partly it teaches LO they can resettle without fully waking and screaming their heads off then being picked up and taking a while to settle back down.  It's actually quite a big step to be able to sleep the whole nap in the cot without being picked up mid nap for comfort.  Partly it sets good habits in place, a nap is this long (1.5 - 2hrs) and LO learns to sleep that length of time, they know then that when they wake early they are still tired, again it can be a big step, some LOs think they are finished sleeping at 45 mins because they have never done longer and always get up then to play so this habit is very useful in the sleep training process.  It also helps to reduce the time of re-settling so makes sleep training somewhat easier for the parent.
A reminder that W2S is not intended to be used every day. Use it for 3 days then stop, observe if your LO can transition alone, if not and he starts to 'I need you' cry then go ahead and help him get back to sleep, the next day you can begin W2S for 3 more days.  If he transitions into another sleep cycle though then W2S is not longer needed.
I realise it can feel like you are required to pat throughout the nap and this is not independent sleeping, it should not be like that, it is a short term tool.  Waht A time are you on now?  If W2S is going on a good while then it could be more A time is needed.

Sorry not much help on the BF.  I think Bella is asking for BF eyes to stop by with some support.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for explaining wake to sleep to me Creations! I've done it for 4 days now and today I stopped to see if it took and it's been 1 hour and 15 minutes and baby hasn't waken form his nap yet!! Very excited about that. This is what I did for the day's first routine:

A time was 2 hours 10 minutes then I breastfed LO then held him a bit and let him play and kick around for a total of about 20 minutes then put him down for his nap. It was the shortest time so far in needing to shush pat him to sleep. A win so far! I hope the rest of the day goes this smoothly.

LO will be 6 months in a week. If LO starts to not nap well again in a few weeks time, should I increase A time by 10-15 minutes? What is the max A time for a 6 month old?