Feeling discouraged with shush pat at nap time

[Mads.mama]

Our baby is 5 months old and 10 days. As of yesterday, we've started putting him in his crib for nap time. Before that, I would breastfeed baby and he would fall asleep in my arms after breastfeeding. If he woke up before his nap time was over, i'd give him a breast. I did this for 5 months :\

I was using breastfeeding as a prop to keep my LO asleep for naps, but i want to break him of that prop. Plus, i want to be able to do things around the house during his nap times instead of holding him until his nap time is over.

So far, after breastfeeding, we are able to put him in the crib and he sleeps for the first 45 minutes (2 naps 1 1/2-2 hours and 1 CN at 40 minutes). After 45 minutes he wakes up. I go in and start doing shush patting. I try to turn him on his side to do shush patting on his back, but he resists being turned on his side so I pat him lightly on the chest and legs, but he doesn't calm down. I then pick him up, patting and shushing him over my shoulder, until he's completely calm. I then put him back down in his crib, but he wakes and starts crying again. I do shush patting in the crib with no luck, then pick him up and shush pat over my shoulder. Today it took about 30 minutes to get him calm again and sleeping once more. LO didn't even sleep for his CN. Am i doing this correctly or am i introducing a new prop/accidental parenting? I don't want to confuse our LO.

Am I doing shush pat correctly? Feeling very discouraged, exhausted and baby is getting OT. Tomorrow will be the third day doing shush pat.

Thank you,
Grace

[Odin's_mom]

I'm not sure if this would work with your little one but with my first son I would go in about 10 mins before he would normally wake (so probably at about 35 mins) and lightly touch his cheek.  He would stir a bit but not wake up and that is supposed to send him back into a deeper sleep.  What is happening at 45 mins is that one sleep cycle is done and your little one can't fall back asleep.  I don't have an answer for the shush/pat part unfortunately. 

We have also done some accidental parenting with our new little one and need to get him off the breastfeeding to sleep and transitioned to a crib so I will be following along with the other advice you are given.  My little guy gets so upset when I try shush/pat that don't even get that first 45 mins yet.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for the advice! I didn't know that about the 45 minute cycle. I'll try that technique at 35 minutes.

[Odin's_mom]

I think it's called wake-to-sleep.  It's also from the BW

[creations]

Hi there Mads.mama and welcome to BW forums
Here's a link to the W2S method (waake-to-sleep) so you can read a bit more about it
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

With regards to your description of shush/pat it sounds like you're doing great, staying calm and keeping going   What you need to bare in mind is that baby has been taught to feed to sleep and has know this for 5 months now, so 3 days of moving towards a different method of going to sleep is not so many days really. Shush/pat (as with all the BW methods) is a very useful and respectful method, reassures baby and teaches her that she is safe to fall asleep independently. But it's not a magic wand and the independent sleep is not going to happen immediately.  Whilst it might be a lot of work to help LO become confident and happy to sleep alone, it is well worth the time and effort, once he is napping well and self settling you will have some Y time (finally) and can rest (long over due after 5 months of holding for naps) or crack on with those things around the house.

In addition you may need a change in your routine times, as pp has rightly said sleep cycles end at 40 or 45 mins (usually) if your LO wakes at this time it is usually an indication of either:
- that he is UT (under tired) and needs a bit more activity before going to sleep
- that he has never learned to self settle so when he wakes at the end of the cycle he doesn’t know how to go back to sleep without your help.
Or it could be a combination of both.  The W2S method could well help here.

Thanks Odin's_mom too for paying it forward and supporting in the community - much appreciated

Mads.mama, could you begin to record your LOs EAS times please. It would help the community support you if we were able to have a look at your current routine - record the actual times things happen, rather thna what you might hope for, so we can see exactly when LO sleeps and wakes.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for the advice creations! It gives me encouragement to know that I'm at least doing shush pat correctly.

Below is baby's routine:

Wake up: 7am
Active: 7-9am
Feed: 9am
Sleep: 9:30am-11am (ideally, but baby wakes after 45 minutes, I do 30 minutes of shush pat and baby is sleeping again, but only for another 15 minutes)
Active: 11am-1pm
Feed: 1pm
Sleep: 1:30pm-3pm (ideally, but baby wakes after 45 minutes, I do 30 minutes of shush pat and baby is sleeping again, but only for another 15 minutes)
Active: 3pm-5pm
Feed: 5pm
Sleep: 5:30pm-6:10pm (catnap)
Active/get ready for bedtime: 6:10pm-8pm
nurse to sleep: 8pm

Thank you!

[creations]

Sorry can you just clarify - are you still feeding to sleep for the naps or are you feeding then using shush/pat whilst LO is awake and then putting him in his cot awake to fall asleep in the cot?  Are you patting him all the way to sleep or until drowsy?
I thought on my first read you had dropped the feed to sleep prop but on looking again I am not so sure. Don't worry we will support you either way, we just need to know where you are up to so we can give suitable advice.

[Mads.mama]

LO is breastfed so he still wakes up at night for feedings. 5am is usually the last breastfeed for the night before he wakes for the day at 7am. Since LO is fed throughout the night, he's not hungry in the morning and would rather play. I've tried to feed him when he wakes, but he refuses.

When I breastfeed LO, it's a full feed (in other words, I don't breastfeed him for the sole purpose of getting him drowsy enough for nap time). Does that routine fall under the category of nursing him to sleep for naps because his E happens before his S? I'll breastfeed for about 30 minutes and then he'll be sleepy when we're done.

I'll carry him over and set him into his crib. He's still drowsy at that time, but falls right to sleep and then naps for 45 minutes then wakes up so I go in and do shush pat for about 30 minutes then he falls back to sleep for 15 minutes and wakes again. :/

[creations]

Does that routine fall under the category of nursing him to sleep for naps because his E happens before his S?

No, it counts as feeding to sleep if he actually falls to sleep.  However, the drowsy part might be helping him get to sleep initially for the nap which means he isn't fully learning to self settle, it's just handy to know when looking at the bigger picture that's all.  If you can separate E and S a little more he is more likely to learn to transition from one cycle to another on his own, this is the part where he wakes at 45 mins and is hard to get back to sleep, he just hasn't learned how yet.
I wonder if you could bring your E something like 30 mins earlier so that it is a little more distanced from S?

Your A times are looking pretty normal for age which is why I'm looking at other areas which might be impacting on his ability to settle.  I think if you can move E a bit further from S so that when he is going for his nap the only drowsiness he has it true tiredness (rather than that cute milk-drunken drowsiness) then you have a better chance of teaching him to self settle and that in turn will help to teach him to transition without help.  It's a process. If we then see that he isn't actually tired enough for a nap (and it was just the milk making him sleepy) then we can think about increasing his A time.
It is of course possible to increase his A time now which may help...but may not...it's hard to know when you're just setting out on sleep training.

hope this helps

[Bella89]

If I may add to my pp, I think I read somewhere that nursing to sleep can help calm down some babies, but they will be uncomfortable with the full belly when they are asleep. I wonder if this is the case here...
Is there a particular reason you BF after A time during the day?
Also, what times you BF at night? I had the same issue with DS, but it helped to eliminate 1 NF. I didn't want to teach him not to have breakfast, so tried that and it worked:)

[Mads.mama]

Thank you Creations and Bella89 for your response!

I've tried to BF our LO after he wakes up from his naps, but he just wants to get up and play and won't latch. I've been successful in getting him to latch after he wakes a few times, but he only BF on one breast and then refuses to latch to the other breast. This was after 4 hours from when he last ate so he should have been plenty hungry. If i'm trying to change his routine, should i just let him not latch onto the other breast so he's very hungry for the next feed? I'm just concerned that he'll be too hungry and won't sleep well for his nap.

At night time, I BF at 7:30pm, baby falls asleep at 8pm then at 11pm he wakes again for another BF then falls back asleep. After that, he wakes every 2 hours and I breastfeed him each time

Today is our 8th day on shush/pat. At day 5 and 6 it seemed like it was working, then after that I haven't had any luck.

[Bella89]

Today is our 8th day on shush/pat. At day 5 and 6 it seemed like it was working, then after that I haven't had any luck.

First of all I think I read that it's normal. A regression. Try to stay consistent and we will see what will happen.

5mo is an age when a baby can be persistent on when he doesn't want to eat, but can also demand food when he is really, really hungry. I am not a long time BF-der, so I will try to call for backup for you, but in my opinion if he eats 1 breast he will be able to get to another feeding with a little fussing. Try to wait 10-20 min from when he wakes up, it helped us. DS was not hungry right after WU. With the NF, if he wakes up every 2h then, are your breasts full? Does he eat both?

[Mads.mama]

Today I'm trying to give LO more A time in hopes that his nap will go more smoothly and hopefully he is truly tired rather than milk sleepy. I've spaced out his E before his S too so hoping he learns to self settle and the full stomach won't bother him. Still trying to transition LO to EAS rather than AES. I've been doing wake to sleep every 30 minutes to get him to start a new sleep cycle. I was wondering, how does wake to sleep teach baby to self settle?

For NF, breasts are somewhat full after each 2 hour wake up. LO only feeds for a few minutes on one breast then falls asleep again. I try to get him on the other breast, but he's already fast asleep. So every 2 hours I just put him on the breast he didn't feed on.

So very tired and trying to stay motivated and positive. 

[creations]

You're doing really well, hang in there!!

I was wondering, how does wake to sleep teach baby to self settle?

Partly it teaches LO they can resettle without fully waking and screaming their heads off then being picked up and taking a while to settle back down.  It's actually quite a big step to be able to sleep the whole nap in the cot without being picked up mid nap for comfort.  Partly it sets good habits in place, a nap is this long (1.5 - 2hrs) and LO learns to sleep that length of time, they know then that when they wake early they are still tired, again it can be a big step, some LOs think they are finished sleeping at 45 mins because they have never done longer and always get up then to play so this habit is very useful in the sleep training process.  It also helps to reduce the time of re-settling so makes sleep training somewhat easier for the parent.
A reminder that W2S is not intended to be used every day. Use it for 3 days then stop, observe if your LO can transition alone, if not and he starts to 'I need you' cry then go ahead and help him get back to sleep, the next day you can begin W2S for 3 more days.  If he transitions into another sleep cycle though then W2S is not longer needed.
I realise it can feel like you are required to pat throughout the nap and this is not independent sleeping, it should not be like that, it is a short term tool.  Waht A time are you on now?  If W2S is going on a good while then it could be more A time is needed.

Sorry not much help on the BF.  I think Bella is asking for BF eyes to stop by with some support.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for explaining wake to sleep to me Creations! I've done it for 4 days now and today I stopped to see if it took and it's been 1 hour and 15 minutes and baby hasn't waken form his nap yet!! Very excited about that. This is what I did for the day's first routine:

A time was 2 hours 10 minutes then I breastfed LO then held him a bit and let him play and kick around for a total of about 20 minutes then put him down for his nap. It was the shortest time so far in needing to shush pat him to sleep. A win so far! I hope the rest of the day goes this smoothly.

LO will be 6 months in a week. If LO starts to not nap well again in a few weeks time, should I increase A time by 10-15 minutes? What is the max A time for a 6 month old?

[creations]

Brilliant update!!

A time was 2 hours 10 minutes then I breastfed LO then held him a bit and let him play and kick around for a total of about 20 minutes then put him down for his nap.

OK, I know in the books the A and E times are listed separately but here on the forums we count E inside the A, so when you post your A time please time from eyes open baby awake to eyes closed baby asleep. Anything you do in that time is A time whether it is feeding, nappy change, playing or the wind down routine. If it takes longer than you hoped for LO to fall to sleep on any nap/night you can always put a note next to your EAS times to show what time it was planned and what time he actually went to sleep.
A time at this age is around 3hrs but this is only guidance, we usually judge based on the individual LO if we know they like longer than average, shorter than average or they were napping well and then not etc
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
My DS for instance needed a very long first A time to get a decent nap (2hrs) but the rest of the day he needed a shorter A time.  If all A times are the same that's fine but if LO likes a particularly long (or short) first A that is also fine, either is normal and it's just a matter of learning what your LO does best with.  You are learning all the time about your LO, just as I was when mine was a baby

[Bella89]

LO will be 6 months in a week. If LO starts to not nap well again in a few weeks time, should I increase A time by 10-15 minutes? What is the max A time for a 6 month old?

I think this is what you are looking for:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

And yes, increasing that A time can help you, and it will also probably get you to transition slowly to 2 naps/day.
Look at this link below in a free time:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Yay, so happy for your longer nap:) Work on that EASY and bringing E earlier. You are doing great!!!

I really think he is using your boobies as pacifier at night He is clearly not hungry. It's always easier to cut on NF with bottle (that's my opinion), but we can do this too. It will take some more work though:/ I would cut 1 middle feed at a time instead of increasing time between feeds, so:
7:30 BF
11:00 BF (these two my DS needed for a long time)
1:00 I would not offer breast but instead try to resettle. It will probably take a longer time to settle him down, but I wouldn't cave in. WHat I am trying to say is if he will cry for 1h and you will BF him he will know that crying gets him the boob:/
3:00 BF (we're feeding for him to get to the breakfast)
7:00 BF (he might not be hungry at 7, but maybe 7:30?)

Also, if he BF so much at night, milk is deffinitely not the first thing in his mind in the morning I think. What do you think?

[Bella89]

Oooops double posting

[*Ali*]

I definitely think you could do more A time.

I'd imagine if you can reduce the NFs he will be more hungry to feed on WU.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you all for your help and advice!

It is now day 15 on shush/pat and after adjusting LO's A time to 3 hours total, he is now sleeping 2 hour naps straight without me needing to go in and do wake to sleep! I'm still not sure if shush/pat is working on him though. When he does wake, i start by patting the underside of his legs while keeping my hand on his chest. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. When that doesn't work, i pick him up and continue shush/pat over my shoulder. Sometimes that gets him to melt back down and sometimes it doesn't work and he pushes away from me with his arms. When that happens, is it okay to do pu/pd or will that confuse my LO? That seems to get him tired enough where if i go back and try shush/pat over my shoulder, he then is able to calm down and melt back down again. LO will be 6 months this Friday.

I've tried to eliminate one feeding at night, but now LO is waking in the middle of the night and is wide awake and ready to play. A couple nights ago, i tried shush/pat for an hour and he wouldn't go back to sleep. He stayed up for 3 hours and then i tried shush/pat again and he fell asleep. Are these middle of the night wakings sleep regression?

This is our routine:

A 6:45am Wake
E 7am Nurse
A 7:45am Solids
S 9:45am nap 2 hours
E 12:00pm nurse
A 12:30pm solids
S 3pm nap 2 hours
E 5pm nurse
A 5:30-7pm light play, bath, story getting ready for bed
S 7:45 nurse and sleep

[creations]

he is now sleeping 2 hour naps straight without me needing to go in and do wake to sleep!

Wonderful news

Your routine looks good, I'm not sure where it is that you are shush/patting without success, is it that he sometimes wakes during the nap or is it only NWs?

[Mads.mama]

For the most part LO will sleep through his naps, but occasionally he does wake so I start doing shush pat in the crib, but that never works so I pick him up and do shush pat over my shoulder and that seems to do the trick. Sometimes LO is fully awake after only sleeping an hour and nothing works to get him back to sleep.

It's been 3 1/2 weeks on shush pat and I do still have to help LO get back to sleep when he wakes early from nap time. I was wondering, how does shush pat teach LO to self soothe?

The last couple days LO hasn't been sleeping through his naps. He's teething so I'm not sure if that's the reason for his early nap wakings. He's also not sleeping well at night anymore either. Longest sleep time is 2 hours. After that, he wakes every 45 minutes. Any idea what could be causing my LO to wake early from naps and NT sleep?

[creations]

I was wondering, how does shush pat teach LO to self soothe?

If you look back at reply 13, where I explain W2S, it's basically the same thing. You are teaching LO that a nap lasts longer, so creating good sleep habits (not getting up to play after a short nap) and teaching LO that you will always be there when needed (so he is confident to be alone knowing you will come if he needs you). In addition it is a sound and movement that is generally easy to reduce and wean in the cot.  Giving LO just enough to assure them of your commitment and care but always reducing to allow him to learn to self settle.
I also had to pick mine up whenever he woke, he needed a PU and a cuddle before being put back down and a hand on him in the cot if needed.  When you PU just hold until calm, not totally asleep, then lay down and continue shush/pat in the cot.

Teething will almost certain disturb sleep. If it is really bad you can try medication 20 mins before nap time (do not go over the recommended number of doses in 24hr) which may help.
Otherwise it could be he needs another A time increase. Perhaps an additional 10 mins before nap 1? See if it helps.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for explaining how shush pat teaches baby to self soothe creations!

I've been holding LO too long then because he falls asleep in my arms when I do shush pat over my shoulder. When he falls asleep, I put him down and then he wakes and starts crying again. Just this last nap I took your advice and held him until he was calm then put him down and continued shush pat and he fell asleep. I thought I had cracked the nap issues, but LO has started waking again before his nap time is over. He did nap well for a week or so and now it's back to waking early and I'm at a loss.

I also keep feeling like I hear my LO do the mantra cry so I wait a bit, but the crying just gets more intense. I'll just have to keep at it and hope the techniques stick one day.

[creations]

Just this last nap I took your advice and held him until he was calm then put him down and continued shush pat and he fell asleep.

This is great.  The first steps of shush/pat and sleep training often involve LO falling to sleep in arms and being transferred, but putting down before he is fully asleep is a great step forward and you are ready for it.  You can shush/pat in the cot all the way to sleep if needed, but the next step is to aim to have stopped shush/pat before he actually nods off.  So when you put down you continue firmly a good shush/pat make sure he's nice and relaxed, then reduce a little.  Reducing might be less firm patting, it might be slower, it might be intermittent (pat pat wait, pat pat wait, it is still a rhythm but leave a little gap).  As you go forward in the coming days you will continue each sleep starting shush/pat in arms, putting in cot before sleep, firm shush/pat for  however long needed in the cot and then reduce reduce reduce. As you reduce sometimes you need to increase a bit if he fusses, it's ok, increase to calm him then reduce again.  It's a bit of a backwards forwards thing always offering more when needed but never getting stuck at that stage.
Learning to fall to sleep in the cot, on the mattress is a big step, so it's great you've made that step. This should help him transition from one cycle to another because when he comes out of his first sleep cycle he will already be familiar with how it feels to be on his mattress rather than get a surprise that he is no longer in-arms.
You might try the W2S method again if the nap wake ups are at a predictable time.

If there is teething pain LOs are more likely to wake at the sleep cycle transition point, they naturally come into a light sleep, wake and go back to sleep, at the point of light sleep they feel the pain and fully wake. This may be what is happening. The W2S can help as can meds.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you creations for the very detailed shush pat explanation! This has helped so much.

[creations]

I'm pleased it's helped.
Hopefully you will begin to see some progress now. It is not a 'quick fix' method and can take some time and patience but will be worth it in the end.
I think your LO is probably around 6 months old now, naps will hopefully begin to get a bit easier as the 4-6 month period can be a tricky time for naps anyway.

Let us know how you get on in the coming days x