Feeling discouraged with shush pat at nap time

[creations]

Brilliant update!!

A time was 2 hours 10 minutes then I breastfed LO then held him a bit and let him play and kick around for a total of about 20 minutes then put him down for his nap.

OK, I know in the books the A and E times are listed separately but here on the forums we count E inside the A, so when you post your A time please time from eyes open baby awake to eyes closed baby asleep. Anything you do in that time is A time whether it is feeding, nappy change, playing or the wind down routine. If it takes longer than you hoped for LO to fall to sleep on any nap/night you can always put a note next to your EAS times to show what time it was planned and what time he actually went to sleep.
A time at this age is around 3hrs but this is only guidance, we usually judge based on the individual LO if we know they like longer than average, shorter than average or they were napping well and then not etc
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
My DS for instance needed a very long first A time to get a decent nap (2hrs) but the rest of the day he needed a shorter A time.  If all A times are the same that's fine but if LO likes a particularly long (or short) first A that is also fine, either is normal and it's just a matter of learning what your LO does best with.  You are learning all the time about your LO, just as I was when mine was a baby

[Bella89]

LO will be 6 months in a week. If LO starts to not nap well again in a few weeks time, should I increase A time by 10-15 minutes? What is the max A time for a 6 month old?

I think this is what you are looking for:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

And yes, increasing that A time can help you, and it will also probably get you to transition slowly to 2 naps/day.
Look at this link below in a free time:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Yay, so happy for your longer nap:) Work on that EASY and bringing E earlier. You are doing great!!!

I really think he is using your boobies as pacifier at night He is clearly not hungry. It's always easier to cut on NF with bottle (that's my opinion), but we can do this too. It will take some more work though:/ I would cut 1 middle feed at a time instead of increasing time between feeds, so:
7:30 BF
11:00 BF (these two my DS needed for a long time)
1:00 I would not offer breast but instead try to resettle. It will probably take a longer time to settle him down, but I wouldn't cave in. WHat I am trying to say is if he will cry for 1h and you will BF him he will know that crying gets him the boob:/
3:00 BF (we're feeding for him to get to the breakfast)
7:00 BF (he might not be hungry at 7, but maybe 7:30?)

Also, if he BF so much at night, milk is deffinitely not the first thing in his mind in the morning I think. What do you think?

[Bella89]

Oooops double posting

[*Ali*]

I definitely think you could do more A time.

I'd imagine if you can reduce the NFs he will be more hungry to feed on WU.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you all for your help and advice!

It is now day 15 on shush/pat and after adjusting LO's A time to 3 hours total, he is now sleeping 2 hour naps straight without me needing to go in and do wake to sleep! I'm still not sure if shush/pat is working on him though. When he does wake, i start by patting the underside of his legs while keeping my hand on his chest. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. When that doesn't work, i pick him up and continue shush/pat over my shoulder. Sometimes that gets him to melt back down and sometimes it doesn't work and he pushes away from me with his arms. When that happens, is it okay to do pu/pd or will that confuse my LO? That seems to get him tired enough where if i go back and try shush/pat over my shoulder, he then is able to calm down and melt back down again. LO will be 6 months this Friday.

I've tried to eliminate one feeding at night, but now LO is waking in the middle of the night and is wide awake and ready to play. A couple nights ago, i tried shush/pat for an hour and he wouldn't go back to sleep. He stayed up for 3 hours and then i tried shush/pat again and he fell asleep. Are these middle of the night wakings sleep regression?

This is our routine:

A 6:45am Wake
E 7am Nurse
A 7:45am Solids
S 9:45am nap 2 hours
E 12:00pm nurse
A 12:30pm solids
S 3pm nap 2 hours
E 5pm nurse
A 5:30-7pm light play, bath, story getting ready for bed
S 7:45 nurse and sleep

[creations]

he is now sleeping 2 hour naps straight without me needing to go in and do wake to sleep!

Wonderful news

Your routine looks good, I'm not sure where it is that you are shush/patting without success, is it that he sometimes wakes during the nap or is it only NWs?

[Mads.mama]

For the most part LO will sleep through his naps, but occasionally he does wake so I start doing shush pat in the crib, but that never works so I pick him up and do shush pat over my shoulder and that seems to do the trick. Sometimes LO is fully awake after only sleeping an hour and nothing works to get him back to sleep.

It's been 3 1/2 weeks on shush pat and I do still have to help LO get back to sleep when he wakes early from nap time. I was wondering, how does shush pat teach LO to self soothe?

The last couple days LO hasn't been sleeping through his naps. He's teething so I'm not sure if that's the reason for his early nap wakings. He's also not sleeping well at night anymore either. Longest sleep time is 2 hours. After that, he wakes every 45 minutes. Any idea what could be causing my LO to wake early from naps and NT sleep?

[creations]

I was wondering, how does shush pat teach LO to self soothe?

If you look back at reply 13, where I explain W2S, it's basically the same thing. You are teaching LO that a nap lasts longer, so creating good sleep habits (not getting up to play after a short nap) and teaching LO that you will always be there when needed (so he is confident to be alone knowing you will come if he needs you). In addition it is a sound and movement that is generally easy to reduce and wean in the cot.  Giving LO just enough to assure them of your commitment and care but always reducing to allow him to learn to self settle.
I also had to pick mine up whenever he woke, he needed a PU and a cuddle before being put back down and a hand on him in the cot if needed.  When you PU just hold until calm, not totally asleep, then lay down and continue shush/pat in the cot.

Teething will almost certain disturb sleep. If it is really bad you can try medication 20 mins before nap time (do not go over the recommended number of doses in 24hr) which may help.
Otherwise it could be he needs another A time increase. Perhaps an additional 10 mins before nap 1? See if it helps.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you for explaining how shush pat teaches baby to self soothe creations!

I've been holding LO too long then because he falls asleep in my arms when I do shush pat over my shoulder. When he falls asleep, I put him down and then he wakes and starts crying again. Just this last nap I took your advice and held him until he was calm then put him down and continued shush pat and he fell asleep. I thought I had cracked the nap issues, but LO has started waking again before his nap time is over. He did nap well for a week or so and now it's back to waking early and I'm at a loss.

I also keep feeling like I hear my LO do the mantra cry so I wait a bit, but the crying just gets more intense. I'll just have to keep at it and hope the techniques stick one day.

[creations]

Just this last nap I took your advice and held him until he was calm then put him down and continued shush pat and he fell asleep.

This is great.  The first steps of shush/pat and sleep training often involve LO falling to sleep in arms and being transferred, but putting down before he is fully asleep is a great step forward and you are ready for it.  You can shush/pat in the cot all the way to sleep if needed, but the next step is to aim to have stopped shush/pat before he actually nods off.  So when you put down you continue firmly a good shush/pat make sure he's nice and relaxed, then reduce a little.  Reducing might be less firm patting, it might be slower, it might be intermittent (pat pat wait, pat pat wait, it is still a rhythm but leave a little gap).  As you go forward in the coming days you will continue each sleep starting shush/pat in arms, putting in cot before sleep, firm shush/pat for  however long needed in the cot and then reduce reduce reduce. As you reduce sometimes you need to increase a bit if he fusses, it's ok, increase to calm him then reduce again.  It's a bit of a backwards forwards thing always offering more when needed but never getting stuck at that stage.
Learning to fall to sleep in the cot, on the mattress is a big step, so it's great you've made that step. This should help him transition from one cycle to another because when he comes out of his first sleep cycle he will already be familiar with how it feels to be on his mattress rather than get a surprise that he is no longer in-arms.
You might try the W2S method again if the nap wake ups are at a predictable time.

If there is teething pain LOs are more likely to wake at the sleep cycle transition point, they naturally come into a light sleep, wake and go back to sleep, at the point of light sleep they feel the pain and fully wake. This may be what is happening. The W2S can help as can meds.

[Mads.mama]

Thank you creations for the very detailed shush pat explanation! This has helped so much.

[creations]

I'm pleased it's helped.
Hopefully you will begin to see some progress now. It is not a 'quick fix' method and can take some time and patience but will be worth it in the end.
I think your LO is probably around 6 months old now, naps will hopefully begin to get a bit easier as the 4-6 month period can be a tricky time for naps anyway.

Let us know how you get on in the coming days x