Starting gw today - advice and hand holding please

[evwright]

Hi,
well after weeks of colds and teething we are finally starting gw at J's nap today. Just wondered how long to try for a nap if things go badly and whether then to just give up or try again say an hour later? Also, dad will be doing nap, would it be better for him to do bt as well rather than swap and change - at the moment we alternate, but we have been rocking to sleep. Thanks for any help.

[evwright]

Probably should have said ds is 20 months - how did that happen 

[evwright]

First nap hasn't happened. He started crying, screaming and jumping up and down as soon as I put him in the cot. He wouldn't sit or lie down at all, although he did fall asleep at one point leaning on the cot rail  so after almost an hour and him being sick we have come downstairs and will try again in an hour. Any advice to get him to lie down? I tried sitting and lying next to the cot, patting and rubbing the mattress. Anytime I said lie down or mentioned the word sleep she just got madder.

[creations]

Oh dear that sounds tough.
hugs for seeing it through.

not sure what your wind down is but if he is used to rocking to sleep I'm guessing you were doing this in arms.  I would suggest (if you are not already doing so) to do your usual WD including rocking in arms and when he is calm and drowsy say you are putting him in bed now so he can sleep properly, then lay him down and keep your hands on him, rock his body some to let him feel you are still there and to let him feel that comforting motion he is used to.  I'd do it all the way to sleep if needed and then work on reducing this as the days go by.
Also, if you do not already have a key phrase I'd introduce one right away, something you can repeat like a mantra, this works in a similar way to shushing for babies but toddlers tend to respond better to a key phrase, it isn't a magic wand and may appear to have no effect initially but hearing your voice is comforting and he will learn to associate the phrase with reassurance meaning that when you get to the stage of leaving the room you can use the phrase from outside the door for verbal reassurance.

Another thing which might help is a lovey, if he already has an attachment to a cloth or toy this could offer him some comfort.

I'm sure it is hard work, stay calm and keep going xx

[evwright]

Thanks for the response. He hasn't got a particular lovey but did cuddle his tiger throughout. We were rocking in arms as we walked previously. We did usual wind down to nap, I rocked a little and as soon as he started snuggling down to sleep tried to lie him down, but he immediately stood up and screamed - I couldn't get him to lie down the whole time. He's simply too strong and resists pd completely so I wouldn't try fighting him on that one.

He would fall asleep stood in the cot leaned against my shoulder, but I'm not sure that counts. He did fall asleep briefly standing with his arms on the side and resting his head on them, but then of course wakes as soon as he starts falling over  I was using lie down, it's time to sleep, but that just seemed to make him more upset. Off to attempt the nap again, if not I assume just head for ebt? xx

[evwright]

Second attempt was no different, I lay him down drowsy, but he was immediately up, bouncing, screaming and crying. I just need to work out what time to try bt. He has usually been going to sleep between 9 and 10, wu about 8am. However, last night he was difficult to settle had a 1hr nw, woke at 7 and snoozed until 7.30. Any suggestions for how early bt should be?

[creations]

If he's barely slept all day I'd say maybe 7 or 8pm for BT but I don't know your LO or familiar with his usual routine to be able to advise any better, sorry.

Sorry to hear second attempt was also bad.
So, 2 possible ways forward from here that I can see (possibly others will jump in with other suggestions)
either
1. Continue as you are tomorrow because although this seems utterly awful it is going to get better, this is likely a more rapid way forward and you may well see a difference day 2 or 3 (with possible regression and another attempt to get back to rocking in arms a few days later).  If you continue I suggest trying to lay him down if he becomes drowsy at the bars. I also suggest an instructional tone of voice to tell him "sit down" and bring his hands down the bars of the cot which will eventually bring his body lower to a sitting position, from there you can say "lie down".  I would continue with the key phrase even if he screams blue murder, he is very frustrated at the change in rules which means he's shouting a lot, not that he doesn't appreciate the reassurance of your voice yk?
or
2. Take it slower in smaller steps.  Initially it would be a back step rocking whilst walking for WD but then sit down on the floor to continue the falling to sleep on you whilst you rock him but sitting down.  Followed by further days of further steps where you reduce the rocking in arms until he is falling to sleep without rocking (still ok to rock during WD just not for falling to sleep) and you lower him between your open legs to a blanket on the ground for sleeping keeping a hand on him and cosy between the 'nest' formed by your legs - but this teaches him to sleep on a firm surface (I imagine it is too hard for you to get in the cot) and further steps of gradual withdrawal where you place him in the cot but keep hands on, reduction of pressure, sitting and verbal reassurance by the cot, leaving the room etc.  Small steps, takes longer but it's your decision what you feel best with.

I usually do things the slower way but in this case now that you've gone through a day of hell I'd probably stick it out and just plough forward (I had a similar 3 day hell when I moved mine from hammock to cot at around 9 months, there was no choice but to just get on with it), but like I said it is totally your choice x

Hope you have a better night and day

[evwright]

Hi, thanks so much for the support and advice. He is used to us walking with him rather than rocking per se and loses the plot if we stop to sit down. Occasionally he will let me stand still when he is almost asleep, but usually he just springs bolt upright and points out to the hallway where we walk (we go in and out of his room and up and down the hallway). He kept pointing out the door while in his cot this afternoon. And you're right, we can't get into the cot with him. As such I think we'll just have to grit our teeth and bear it. Hopefully if he is tireder this evening I may be able to get him to lie down. He has to sleep sometime right?    Having gone through this afternoon I'm not willing to waste all that crying to go back to walking him, which was just unsustainable, so if nothing else I have more resolve than yesterday. Here goes...

[evwright]

Last night went far better than expected  Life conspired against ebt so I walked him a little, but he was falling asleep so quickly in my arms I put him in the cot almost immediately. He stood up and started crying and screaming but after about 10 minutes he did at least sit down. He kept falling asleep sat, but then waking with a jerk every time he started falling over and got upset if I tried to support him. He kept crying, yelling and screaming on and off with some real injured animal howling that I have never heard him do before, but it petered out bit by bit until he got mad and banged his head onto the mattress - and fell asleep. That was at 9.50 and we didn't hear a squeak until after 8 this morning  He has sttn a few times in the last couple of weeks, but it isn't the norm as he has been alternating with long nws and really restless nights, so very happy that we've all had a night's rest. I'm sure that when we get nws they will be very hard on us all.

Once he sat down he didn't want to cuddle or really be touched. It was as if he said well if you're not going to pick me up there's not much you can do for me, so I just stroked his hand when he wanted and held his foot. He still shakes his head madly, says no and cries if I say sit down, lie down or it's time for sleep, but I'm sure that will pass. Should I have mentioned he's spirited/touchy?

So it's dh's turn today and we'll see what day 2 brings. Thanks for the ideas, it's really good to know some-one with some experience is there x

[creations]

Sounds very very hard but well done. The absolute primary thing here is that you (and DH) stay calm and stay with him. The level of crying and screaming is likely very hard on all of you, but you are there with him throughout and that means everything even if it doesn't stop him crying.  Well done.

and what a great night you all had, wow, STTN

If telling him to lie down is not helping at all I might consider just using a sleep phrase instead, something calm and reassuring like "it's sleep time" and/or "I'm right here, everything is okay".
If there is a time the crying appears to get worse or goes on a long time you might want to pick him up, if so it is not necessary to walk him, even though of course that its what he wants.  Just continue to speak calmly and lovingly to him like you would if a friend was upset and needed your support.  I did an evening of *not* trying to stop my DS crying but listening to all his complaints and responding with "mmm, aha, aha, oh, yes, I see, hmm" and he really did have a lot to tell me but he seemed to get it all off his chest and felt 'heard' if that makes sense.

Keep going, strength and calm for DH as he takes round 2

[evwright]

Hi. Well dh and J make a good team  It took 30 minutes at nap time, with a fair amount of crying and yelling. We then woke him after 2hrs. At bt it took around 30 minutes again, but with a lot less crying, maybe 10 minutes and then just bits of grizzling. He was round at grandparents so we ended up with a late bt  however he was asleep at 10pm and woke just after 8  He was often asleep later when we rocked him as he could take a long time to settle.

DH used his voice less than me, but J started responding rather than screaming and shaking his head, so all going in the right direction at the moment. It will be interesting to see how he goes with me again today as he has always responded to us quite differently. I think our first nw will be the big test as we were having up to 4hr wakings that we couldn't resettle with all the apop in the world. Any hints to help deal with long nws as he has always been picked up/rocked/walked/brought into our bed etc just to get some sleep. I assume for now we would go in fairly quickly and do gw, only leaving things longer once he is sleeping independently?

Thanks for the support. The idea of having a chat rather than just saying lie down etc may well work as he loves a 2 way chat. We'll keep you updated x

[evwright]

Today's nap went brilliantly, J was asleep within 5 minutes and with less than a minute of crying. However, he woke at 1hr 45min and was promptly sick - looks like he's got the same bug as dh  so tonight may be more difficult. We aren't ready to actually start withdrawal anyway and I assume we just continue in the crib as much as possible during illness and try not to slip too far backwards? Mum's are immune to bugs aren't we? xx

[creations]

Sorry to hear he's poorly. Not much you can do differently really, if he needs picking up when he is ill then just do it, you aren't planning on rocking/walking to sleep but you can give extra comfort.

Long NW are a drag.  I would expect the worst and try to plan a sleep time for either you or DH and for someone to take the next shift the following day so you can catch up with a nap at least.  If he is awake but quiet or calm you can leave but if he is shouting and crying you do need to respond. If it is very long you might find it easier to grab a pillow and duvet and camp out on the floor by his cot, he at least knows you are there and therefore he is safe.  You may not get any sleep at all but you may be able to rest a little more than standing/sitting in his room.

The idea of having a chat rather than just saying lie down etc may well work as he loves a 2 way chat.

Hmmm...I may have misled you with this. Caution about taking part in a two way chat and this becoming a nap/night time stalling tactic, you don't want to take part in much chat which is why the key phrase is helpful, it is a response which does not engage in conversation, but what I was meaning was that sometimes if he is really really frustrated it may be worth 'hearing' him so he knows he is heard. So for instance "yes, I know you are tired and frustrated, I hear you, Mummy is right here, yes, I know, you want out, this is tricky for you, I'm here" rather than getting into real conversation or answering questions etc.
Hmm, hope that makes sense.

anyway, you are all doing great!  Certainly moving forward, only so sorry to hear he is poorly

[evwright]

Hi, well bt took only a few minutes. He let me lie him down out of my arms for the first time, grabbed my hand, rolled over and just took a few minutes to settle himself to sleep. I didn't even get chance to get comfy. We had nw from 5.30 and dh just stayed by his cot so he did get more sleep on and off - all in his cot. Then up at 8 when he was sick again.

He fell asleep on daddy's knee this morning and ended up taking 1.5hr nap finishing at 12.30  considering how utterly ill and exhausted we have felt I'm not surprised. Think we may have to try to apop a cn later as bt is usually about 9.

You didn't mislead me about conversation, I didn't word my response well. I can quite imagine the delaying tactics of conversation... x

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Look how far you've all come in just 3 days!!

I'm so sorry to hear he is still poorly, what a shame Never nice when our LOs are ill is it

I hope the rest of your day and BT tonight went well. x