Starting gw today - advice and hand holding please

[evwright]

Hi,
well after weeks of colds and teething we are finally starting gw at J's nap today. Just wondered how long to try for a nap if things go badly and whether then to just give up or try again say an hour later? Also, dad will be doing nap, would it be better for him to do bt as well rather than swap and change - at the moment we alternate, but we have been rocking to sleep. Thanks for any help.

[evwright]

Probably should have said ds is 20 months - how did that happen 

[evwright]

First nap hasn't happened. He started crying, screaming and jumping up and down as soon as I put him in the cot. He wouldn't sit or lie down at all, although he did fall asleep at one point leaning on the cot rail  so after almost an hour and him being sick we have come downstairs and will try again in an hour. Any advice to get him to lie down? I tried sitting and lying next to the cot, patting and rubbing the mattress. Anytime I said lie down or mentioned the word sleep she just got madder.

[creations]

Oh dear that sounds tough.
hugs for seeing it through.

not sure what your wind down is but if he is used to rocking to sleep I'm guessing you were doing this in arms.  I would suggest (if you are not already doing so) to do your usual WD including rocking in arms and when he is calm and drowsy say you are putting him in bed now so he can sleep properly, then lay him down and keep your hands on him, rock his body some to let him feel you are still there and to let him feel that comforting motion he is used to.  I'd do it all the way to sleep if needed and then work on reducing this as the days go by.
Also, if you do not already have a key phrase I'd introduce one right away, something you can repeat like a mantra, this works in a similar way to shushing for babies but toddlers tend to respond better to a key phrase, it isn't a magic wand and may appear to have no effect initially but hearing your voice is comforting and he will learn to associate the phrase with reassurance meaning that when you get to the stage of leaving the room you can use the phrase from outside the door for verbal reassurance.

Another thing which might help is a lovey, if he already has an attachment to a cloth or toy this could offer him some comfort.

I'm sure it is hard work, stay calm and keep going xx

[evwright]

Thanks for the response. He hasn't got a particular lovey but did cuddle his tiger throughout. We were rocking in arms as we walked previously. We did usual wind down to nap, I rocked a little and as soon as he started snuggling down to sleep tried to lie him down, but he immediately stood up and screamed - I couldn't get him to lie down the whole time. He's simply too strong and resists pd completely so I wouldn't try fighting him on that one.

He would fall asleep stood in the cot leaned against my shoulder, but I'm not sure that counts. He did fall asleep briefly standing with his arms on the side and resting his head on them, but then of course wakes as soon as he starts falling over  I was using lie down, it's time to sleep, but that just seemed to make him more upset. Off to attempt the nap again, if not I assume just head for ebt? xx

[evwright]

Second attempt was no different, I lay him down drowsy, but he was immediately up, bouncing, screaming and crying. I just need to work out what time to try bt. He has usually been going to sleep between 9 and 10, wu about 8am. However, last night he was difficult to settle had a 1hr nw, woke at 7 and snoozed until 7.30. Any suggestions for how early bt should be?

[creations]

If he's barely slept all day I'd say maybe 7 or 8pm for BT but I don't know your LO or familiar with his usual routine to be able to advise any better, sorry.

Sorry to hear second attempt was also bad.
So, 2 possible ways forward from here that I can see (possibly others will jump in with other suggestions)
either
1. Continue as you are tomorrow because although this seems utterly awful it is going to get better, this is likely a more rapid way forward and you may well see a difference day 2 or 3 (with possible regression and another attempt to get back to rocking in arms a few days later).  If you continue I suggest trying to lay him down if he becomes drowsy at the bars. I also suggest an instructional tone of voice to tell him "sit down" and bring his hands down the bars of the cot which will eventually bring his body lower to a sitting position, from there you can say "lie down".  I would continue with the key phrase even if he screams blue murder, he is very frustrated at the change in rules which means he's shouting a lot, not that he doesn't appreciate the reassurance of your voice yk?
or
2. Take it slower in smaller steps.  Initially it would be a back step rocking whilst walking for WD but then sit down on the floor to continue the falling to sleep on you whilst you rock him but sitting down.  Followed by further days of further steps where you reduce the rocking in arms until he is falling to sleep without rocking (still ok to rock during WD just not for falling to sleep) and you lower him between your open legs to a blanket on the ground for sleeping keeping a hand on him and cosy between the 'nest' formed by your legs - but this teaches him to sleep on a firm surface (I imagine it is too hard for you to get in the cot) and further steps of gradual withdrawal where you place him in the cot but keep hands on, reduction of pressure, sitting and verbal reassurance by the cot, leaving the room etc.  Small steps, takes longer but it's your decision what you feel best with.

I usually do things the slower way but in this case now that you've gone through a day of hell I'd probably stick it out and just plough forward (I had a similar 3 day hell when I moved mine from hammock to cot at around 9 months, there was no choice but to just get on with it), but like I said it is totally your choice x

Hope you have a better night and day

[evwright]

Hi, thanks so much for the support and advice. He is used to us walking with him rather than rocking per se and loses the plot if we stop to sit down. Occasionally he will let me stand still when he is almost asleep, but usually he just springs bolt upright and points out to the hallway where we walk (we go in and out of his room and up and down the hallway). He kept pointing out the door while in his cot this afternoon. And you're right, we can't get into the cot with him. As such I think we'll just have to grit our teeth and bear it. Hopefully if he is tireder this evening I may be able to get him to lie down. He has to sleep sometime right?    Having gone through this afternoon I'm not willing to waste all that crying to go back to walking him, which was just unsustainable, so if nothing else I have more resolve than yesterday. Here goes...

[evwright]

Last night went far better than expected  Life conspired against ebt so I walked him a little, but he was falling asleep so quickly in my arms I put him in the cot almost immediately. He stood up and started crying and screaming but after about 10 minutes he did at least sit down. He kept falling asleep sat, but then waking with a jerk every time he started falling over and got upset if I tried to support him. He kept crying, yelling and screaming on and off with some real injured animal howling that I have never heard him do before, but it petered out bit by bit until he got mad and banged his head onto the mattress - and fell asleep. That was at 9.50 and we didn't hear a squeak until after 8 this morning  He has sttn a few times in the last couple of weeks, but it isn't the norm as he has been alternating with long nws and really restless nights, so very happy that we've all had a night's rest. I'm sure that when we get nws they will be very hard on us all.

Once he sat down he didn't want to cuddle or really be touched. It was as if he said well if you're not going to pick me up there's not much you can do for me, so I just stroked his hand when he wanted and held his foot. He still shakes his head madly, says no and cries if I say sit down, lie down or it's time for sleep, but I'm sure that will pass. Should I have mentioned he's spirited/touchy?

So it's dh's turn today and we'll see what day 2 brings. Thanks for the ideas, it's really good to know some-one with some experience is there x

[creations]

Sounds very very hard but well done. The absolute primary thing here is that you (and DH) stay calm and stay with him. The level of crying and screaming is likely very hard on all of you, but you are there with him throughout and that means everything even if it doesn't stop him crying.  Well done.

and what a great night you all had, wow, STTN

If telling him to lie down is not helping at all I might consider just using a sleep phrase instead, something calm and reassuring like "it's sleep time" and/or "I'm right here, everything is okay".
If there is a time the crying appears to get worse or goes on a long time you might want to pick him up, if so it is not necessary to walk him, even though of course that its what he wants.  Just continue to speak calmly and lovingly to him like you would if a friend was upset and needed your support.  I did an evening of *not* trying to stop my DS crying but listening to all his complaints and responding with "mmm, aha, aha, oh, yes, I see, hmm" and he really did have a lot to tell me but he seemed to get it all off his chest and felt 'heard' if that makes sense.

Keep going, strength and calm for DH as he takes round 2

[evwright]

Hi. Well dh and J make a good team  It took 30 minutes at nap time, with a fair amount of crying and yelling. We then woke him after 2hrs. At bt it took around 30 minutes again, but with a lot less crying, maybe 10 minutes and then just bits of grizzling. He was round at grandparents so we ended up with a late bt  however he was asleep at 10pm and woke just after 8  He was often asleep later when we rocked him as he could take a long time to settle.

DH used his voice less than me, but J started responding rather than screaming and shaking his head, so all going in the right direction at the moment. It will be interesting to see how he goes with me again today as he has always responded to us quite differently. I think our first nw will be the big test as we were having up to 4hr wakings that we couldn't resettle with all the apop in the world. Any hints to help deal with long nws as he has always been picked up/rocked/walked/brought into our bed etc just to get some sleep. I assume for now we would go in fairly quickly and do gw, only leaving things longer once he is sleeping independently?

Thanks for the support. The idea of having a chat rather than just saying lie down etc may well work as he loves a 2 way chat. We'll keep you updated x

[evwright]

Today's nap went brilliantly, J was asleep within 5 minutes and with less than a minute of crying. However, he woke at 1hr 45min and was promptly sick - looks like he's got the same bug as dh  so tonight may be more difficult. We aren't ready to actually start withdrawal anyway and I assume we just continue in the crib as much as possible during illness and try not to slip too far backwards? Mum's are immune to bugs aren't we? xx

[creations]

Sorry to hear he's poorly. Not much you can do differently really, if he needs picking up when he is ill then just do it, you aren't planning on rocking/walking to sleep but you can give extra comfort.

Long NW are a drag.  I would expect the worst and try to plan a sleep time for either you or DH and for someone to take the next shift the following day so you can catch up with a nap at least.  If he is awake but quiet or calm you can leave but if he is shouting and crying you do need to respond. If it is very long you might find it easier to grab a pillow and duvet and camp out on the floor by his cot, he at least knows you are there and therefore he is safe.  You may not get any sleep at all but you may be able to rest a little more than standing/sitting in his room.

The idea of having a chat rather than just saying lie down etc may well work as he loves a 2 way chat.

Hmmm...I may have misled you with this. Caution about taking part in a two way chat and this becoming a nap/night time stalling tactic, you don't want to take part in much chat which is why the key phrase is helpful, it is a response which does not engage in conversation, but what I was meaning was that sometimes if he is really really frustrated it may be worth 'hearing' him so he knows he is heard. So for instance "yes, I know you are tired and frustrated, I hear you, Mummy is right here, yes, I know, you want out, this is tricky for you, I'm here" rather than getting into real conversation or answering questions etc.
Hmm, hope that makes sense.

anyway, you are all doing great!  Certainly moving forward, only so sorry to hear he is poorly

[evwright]

Hi, well bt took only a few minutes. He let me lie him down out of my arms for the first time, grabbed my hand, rolled over and just took a few minutes to settle himself to sleep. I didn't even get chance to get comfy. We had nw from 5.30 and dh just stayed by his cot so he did get more sleep on and off - all in his cot. Then up at 8 when he was sick again.

He fell asleep on daddy's knee this morning and ended up taking 1.5hr nap finishing at 12.30  considering how utterly ill and exhausted we have felt I'm not surprised. Think we may have to try to apop a cn later as bt is usually about 9.

You didn't mislead me about conversation, I didn't word my response well. I can quite imagine the delaying tactics of conversation... x

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Look how far you've all come in just 3 days!!

I'm so sorry to hear he is still poorly, what a shame Never nice when our LOs are ill is it

I hope the rest of your day and BT tonight went well. x

[evwright]

We are still doing well here despite illness.  Jacob has settled himself for all naps and at bt with just a little reassurance and hand-holding. We have had no crying or protests since day two. Naps are just taking five minutes (which is about the same as previously), bt is taking longer at 15-30 minutes, but that is often less than when we were walking him. It is also difficult to tell exactly when he falls asleep as he has taken to facing the other way and dh has fallen asleep first on at least one occasion  J has also sttn apart from when he woke ill

We can't believe how well it has gone so far and it is perfect timing as with how ill we have been there would have been no way we could walk him. We are going to stay as we are until he is fully better and then start actual withdrawal after a couple of days. At the moment he is just hand-holding so I assume the next step will be to reduce that contact until just our presence is enough? His room is tiny so we are almost at the door already and will have to start opening it to move further away. How small/large should each step be - a foot per move would see us out the door in three or four steps, does that seem reasonable or should we be thinking quicker/slower? It would be good to have a plan ready as we had expected to take far longer to get this far x

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You're all doing absolutely brilliantly
You really have come a long way in a short time, well done

OK, so moving on...
I can understand that you want to hold where you are for now due to the illness, you move on when you feel it is time.
What I will say, usually with GW you keep moving forward.  If you pause for too long on one particular step LO will become accustomed to this as the new rule and will then become more upset when you change the rules again (it may lead to another 3 days of screaming).  When you keep moving forward in small steps it's kind of 2 steps forward 1 back because he gets upset you go back a bit to reassure but then move on again, this way you don't get 'caught' or 'stuck' with falling to sleep requiring this or that prop.
My advice would be to look at the hand holding. Are you holding his hand or is he holding yours?
You might consider this is something you can still move forwards on even now, even though he is a bit poorly (because you are never leaving him without support, you are always responding when needed), if you don't feel ready that's fine, just take into account what I've said above.
The hand hold then, if he has hold of you and it's a pretty tight grip you need to change this next.  If he wants to hold something get something else into his hand for him to grip and keep your hand very firmly on him, reassure with your voice "it's ok, you hold teddy/muslin/lovey I'll hold you, I'm right here."  If though you have hold of his hand you are already the next step on, gradually reduce the pressure of holding, you can still begin every sleep with firm pressure but reduce the pressure in a more rapid way, begin to take your hand off and put it back without him having chance to be upset, then take it off and return it if he makes noise (and perhaps use your key phrase at the same time or "it's ok, you're going to sleep now"), after returning your hand keep a thought to removing it again.  It's a backwards and forwards thing, reassuring then removing.
Once you are able to let go of his hand and he falls to sleep I will suggest the next step is to say "night night, call if you need me" and leave the room.  You don't know until you try
If he screams blue murder then resettle and consider taking slower steps...but I think this is worth a try because by you returning he learns something else, that you always return when he needs you and this is a great point of trust, he doesn't 'need' to keep you in the room because you will always always come back. Return without delay (I would only go as far as outside to door in these early days), use your voice "I'm coming" "I'm back" take his hand if that's all that is needed and say "it's ok, you're going to sleep" etc.  At any stage it is still ok to pick up if he is very upset or ill or any reason you feel you want to pick up, there is no problem with this, only once he is ready you put him back in his cot, do your usual soothing (hand holding, key phrase) and move on and forward.
If it turns out you need to move slowly from the room stage by stage we can cover that when needed - it might be that you let go of his hand and move a foot away and wait (returning to his hand as needed then returning to your position) or it might be that you can begin the withdrawal by regular WD and comfort, key phrase, I'm going now call if you need, leave the room, even if you return half a second later.  Let's see what's needed by his level of confidence or upset when you try it.

You might also use the phrase "I'm going xyz/kitchen/toilet, I'm coming back" and "I'm back" during the day. This key aspect of telling him you are leaving and that you will return, then telling him you have returned may be useful for the sleep time confidence.

I hope you have managed to miss this nasty bug - and healthy vibes to your boy and DH, hope they are feeling better x

[evwright]

Hi, thanks for your positive support and giving such thought to a detailed reply, it really does help 

We have all been ill unfortunately so this process going smoothly so far has been an absolute life saver. A week ago I spent over an hour walking up and down the hall to get him to sleep and into his cot and that wasn't unusual

I guess I have seen so many comments about not st or expecting things to regress during illness that we may be a little too cautious. It has been a mix of us offering a hand to hold and him searching for it. He has generally held on tightly to a couple of fingers and we have kept testing his grip gently. However, although he looked for dad's hand at nap today to begin with, he then settled quickly without any contact so we probably should look to move forward at this point. DH has done the last couple of days as I was too ill so it will be interesting to see how I go tonight. BT always takes longer and seems more difficult. Is that usual or considering how quickly he settles at nap is there anything we should consider routine wise? I would be a little wary of changing much when he is sleeping so well atm, didn't know if lo's just need longer to settle and process the day at bt.

He cuddled his tiger the first couple of days, but doesn't seem particularly attached to any one thing and it would have to be small as he falls asleep on his front with his hands tucked underneath. We may have to head out and let him choose a new cuddle or maybe a really soft blanket if he is still searching for something to hold.

If we get a couple of days without any handholding I think your suggestion of leaving briefly is a good plan as the room is so small. As you say, it tests the waters and he learns that we return if he needs us. I think as naps are so much easier we can use them as a testing ground for each new stage without upsetting things too much x

[creations]

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that you were ill too - bad luck
It really is amazing to think you were carrying and walking him for an hour+ every sleep, you must be very strong!!

It's true you should not expect too much of LO when he is ill, and usually we would recommend not doing sleep training or dropping props during illness when LO needs you so much, but as you had already started it didn't seem worth going back.  For sure LOs do tend to need extra support through illness, teething and developmental leaps etc but with BW methods you never deny support.  With my LO I give him extra support when ever he needs it, but that doesn't mean carrying him for an hour, I just can't do it, what I can do is sit with him on me, cuddle him, speak to him, stroke his head...all sorts of closeness and for longer than he would need at other times but it is support rather than being held to ransom - I think you know the difference   Funny enough my DS's illnesses have always helped us with a routine change!  It's like everything is off track anyway so it can't get any worse, yk?

So, a lovey perhaps?  I am a huge fan of the lovey.  If LO attaches to an item it can provide a *huge* amount of comfort, almost magic.  Whilst you can't force that magic you can have a go at encouraging it.  My DS uses a muslin square (ten a penny, perhaps you already have some for mopping up dribbles?), there is a never ending supply of muslins so we never fear one being dirty or lost (a lost lovey is almost the end of the world, whatever he attaches to get another one as back up so you can keep them clean) and when he was 3yo and starting nursery he took a cut up muslin (to the size of a small pocket handkerchief) in his trouser pocket to nursery. The first few weeks he held that muslin the entire time.  Now at 5yo he has it in his school trousers, he gains so much confidence knowing it is there and no nursery or school would ever tell me he can't have a handkerchief where as they do tend to discourage or not allow cuddly toys in nursery and school.  Oh muslins are also easy to fall asleep tucked under him too.  Mine particularly likes the washing label and rubs it...he rubbed them so much we had to do a batch replacement of labels with some silky ribbon lol
If you choose to encourage one, whatever it might be, carry it with you up your top for a bit or sleep with it yourself so it smells of you. Hold it every time you cuddle him and comfort him, not just at nap/BT but throughout the day, if he has a little bump and needs a cuddle get the lovey and have it with/between you or him holding it etc.
At nap/BT you can then put that in his hand so he has something to grasp but you keep your hand there too for the added comfort as he won't attach to the item instantly.

WRT BT taking longer.
Do you feel that he is getting his regular naps again now?  Is he in the routine you were using before the ST began?  I assume he is sleeping more/better at night due to not having long drawn out NWs but I also assume his sleep is still off track due to either ST, illness or both.  I would say just now that his routine is not likely settled enough to look at tweaking which is why I've not asked for your EAS times, but if you feel it has already settled down then please do post your EAS times and I'll have a look.

I hope you all have a good night x

[evwright]

Hi, well we are almost feeling human again - I haven't felt like this since I had morning sickness. Thankfully it didn't take an hour for every sleep, but most nights were at least 30 mins and nws were very long indeed. We aren't strong (in fact I have chronic fatigue), just physically wrecked!

He has gone down easily at naps ever since the 2-1, which we did at 13/14 months. Bt has always been more of an issue. Due to really poor sleep previously we hadn't established a good routine - and all the recent nws left us exhausted, lying in whenever we could and so our day is skewed rather late. Something we really want to address before the clocks change. Once things settle a little more I'll post our EAS and see how things look. Having said that, since we started st he has sttn 5 out of 7 and we have had to wake him from some naps at the 2hr mark. We do struggle to get nights of more than 10 - 10.5 hrs and again hopefully once we get a better routine we can find out if J is lsn or if we can improve night length.

We have had a couple of days where he has taken longer to settle, 15 mins for one nap and up to an hour one bt (versus 5-10min for nap and 30min at bt). Last night we had nw at 4 that lasted about an hour. He was upset at first and had cuddles and a bit of handholding, but he did go back to sleep on his own in the end. We couldn't work out if he has been more unsettled due to some being me rather than dh, feeling better and not so sleepy, trying to remove the handholding or the typical one week regression. Tonight will be telling as he went down easily for today's nap with dh, but it's me tonight. We have had 2 days where he had a little hand-holding during settling, but actually went to sleep without. Then at today's nap dh went and sat in the chair at the other end of his room - only a few feet away as it is tiny - but we had been lying next to the cot. There was a small grumble, but he didn't stand up, dh said don't worry I'm here, time for sleep...

...and off to sleep he went 

Not sure if I'll be able to do the same tonight as bt's are more difficult to settle. Also he acts very differently with each of us, he has always sought out skin contact with me that he didn't with dh. We only weaned fully at new year and he has stayed close physically to me since and there are always little hands rummaging in my clothes to cuddle. So I will give it a go and see what happens as it is a good next step. The chair is as far away as we can be in his room - although at the opposite end to the door. So from there the next step would be to leave the room. We'll see how the next couple of days go and then plan for getting out of the room if things are going well.

Thanks for ideas re loveys. We do have lots of muslins and he used to love them so definitely worth a go. We have the same preoccupation labels here  I love the picture you painted of your lo starting nursery and school with such a strong comfort right there in his pocket  x

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There was a small grumble, but he didn't stand up, dh said don't worry I'm here, time for sleep...

...and off to sleep he went 

You've actually brought tears to my eyes!!!!  In a good way!!
I remember my DS giving me a smile just before I left the room, it is such an amazing feeling to know you have helped your child to feel confident, I think that must be how you and DH are feeling now

I would not pin too much on one sleep or another taking a bit longer just yet, it's a bit too close to illness and sleep training to really get a good idea of routine but I would record times and moods from here if you are not already. That way you can see if a pattern emerges.

I'm so pleased for you all, what wonderful progress.

[evwright]

Thank-you for such a lovely response. Thought I'd add a quick update to say that I sat in the chair tonight - he had a few grumbly cries when he realised I wasn't in reach so I went over and gave him his tiger to cuddle, then he quietly settled himself. It took just 20 mins x

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Wonderful

[evwright]

We have had a couple more days of settling to sleep while we sit in the chair and J has sttn, however tonight he kept getting upset and needed a hand on his back to get to sleep. It was day 10. He has had a bit of SA the last day or two, which is unusual for him. Not sure if it is related to the st or something else. We are still feeling the effects of the bug (actually now think it was food poisoning) although he is eating well again and is pretty bouncy. He is teething again (we've been medicating before bed), but we didn't have any SA for his molars. He is usually fine for us to leave the room during the day, play in his cot on his own while we get ready in the morning etc. so we are wondering whether to give him a couple more days before trying to leave his the room or to push ahead and see what happens. What do you think?

[creations]

There's no harm in going ahead in trying to leave his room. Even if he has some SA you will always return to him anyway and give him the help he needs so it's not like you are leaving the room and refusing to go back ,yk?

there's a language leap around 21 months, it caused *huge* disturbance here for several days, there is a chance this is coming.  when there is ST or props or teething or illness in the mix it is never easy to work out exactly which one is the culprit for disturbance, in a way it kind of doesn't matter because you still respond as needed and move on when you can. I know when mine hit that language leap it caused lots of sleep disturbance.  so maybe this, maybe not.
It could also be that now you have been through ST he is getting a bit more sleep and possibly UT at nap or BT, fussing, clinginess and what looks like SA can be an attempt to communicate they are not ready to sleep yet.

You're doing everything right though

[evwright]

Well depending on which way you look at it life either conspired against us this afternoon or gave us a great opportunity to see how he responds when we leave the room. He looked really tired and we needed to go out so we tried for a nap and found out what UT looks like, he was just playing in the cot, trying to get dh to play, bouncing up and down etc. So dh left the room to get ready on the basis that either J would go to sleep or get upset. Instead he just carried on bits of playing, bits of lying down and trying to settle, so we left it like that with his mamma watching on the monitor when we went out. Then when he started acting differently and grumbling more she went into his room and found that something incredibly stinky had happened, so he was changed and came downstairs - there's no way he would go to sleep in the cot with mamma about, she's far too exciting 

We got him down for a late 45min nap with some handholding and rubbing as he was so OT by then and found a new tooth when we woke him. Poor lad, he's done well today with everything that's been thrown at him. No doubt its pair will be following just behind, so we'll see how he feels tonight, try leaving again but not push too hard. His SA has been during the day when being left at grandparents or anywhere on his own in the house rather than particularly at nap/bt and having seen the UT nap today I think it is probably a mix of things going on. I get what you mean about response being the same all important rather than trying too hard to understand what is going on - very guilty of overthinking things here thankfully dh is good at keeping things moving forward.

Thanks for the heads up on the language leap, I knew there was something around now. x

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very guilty of overthinking things here

Oh we can all do that from time to time - I've stayed on the forums for almost 5 years now which really helps to keep things in perspective and get support for the various things that crop up for us.

Did you introduce a lovey yet? Just thinking how much comfort it gave my DS through teething, we wouldn’t have been without it.

Don't worry about today, there are going to be off days here and there for various reasons, just pick up again the next day and roll with it a bit
You're still doing great.

[evwright]

Thanks for the encouragement. I spent bt yesterday handholding for half an hour until he fell asleep and wondering if I should have pushed him more (he screamed and got really upset each time I took my hand away) or whether the extra comfort was necessary and I was doing the right thing. We heard him crying out at about 2am, but then it was morning and he hadn't got us up. However, he has massive swollen gum and was a very grumpy boy this morning bless him so I went up for nap expecting more of the same. Went to sit in the chair and there was a grumble, then he started singing, a few acrobatics before snuggling to sleep  Just so glad that we haven't undone our work so far and he just bounced back like that.

So dh is in the chair tonight and out the door tomorrow all being well. Hopefully we'll have the tooth today looking at how close it is and how quickly the other popped through.

We've tried for a lovey, but even his beloved tiger gets thrown at us if we try to replace a hand with something else. He snuggles up against anything soft, but apart from chewing his fingers he doesn't seem to want anything else to hold at the moment. No doubt that will change again before long so we'll keep a few things on hand and see x

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Great great great!
Really you are all doing so well

he screamed and got really upset each time I took my hand away) or whether the extra comfort was necessary and I was doing the right thing.

It sounds to me like the extra comfort was needed.  What you might be able to do it a bit of on-off on the hand, kind of patting, rubbing ,holding, so that he is getting the holding he wants but also you are moving around a bit with it, when you take your hand off it is for a split second and back on so he still feels totally supported but so that he doesn't get into the fixed habit of feeling a firm hand holding his in an un-moving way. Hope this makes sense.  I'm not suggesting less support when he needs it, only that the support can be more 'moving' to avoid a harder habit to break.

keep going

[evwright]

Hi, we are a little stuck at this end and are wondering how to move things forward again. For most naps we can sit in the chair and he will settle himself to sleep within 5 - 10 minutes, today he needed a little back rub but he was asking for it to help him wind down rather than being upset. At bt things can be taking up to an hour and he keeps standing and getting upset. If we go over to the cot and say lie down he will, but not if we say it from the chair. Last night I had to keep just laying my hand on his back lightly and lifting it off (rather than let him get a hand hold at all). If I then stayed by the cot he would try and settle, but when I stepped away we had to go through the same routine again. For the last 15 minutes I was able to sit down and he didn't need me again, but that was after a lot of help settling. He was about the same for dh tonight, but by the time he settled dh didn't have a chance to reach the chair. Both days he was into cot 13hrs after WU and 5 to 5.5hrs after nap.

He is teething (we are waiting for the pair to the new tooth that cut a few days ago) however we medicate and he didn't seem in any discomfort. We are also over the illness, though it's only been a few days so could that be it?

We want to keep moving things gently forward and don't know the best way as he seems unable to settle himself at bt especially without more help again. Do we just push and accept there will be crying again or having managed previously do we take it that he needs the extra comfort? Dh wondered if us being there was distracting, but when he did leave the room J got really upset and then took longer to settle again so I'm not sure we're ready for that.

His nights are typically 10 to 10.5 hrs and we usually wake him around the 2hr mark for naps. We have always had a late day and hope to keep bringing this forward over time, especially if we can regularly get nights longer than 10hrs. Although he has slept far better since starting st he is still getting only 12 to 12.5hrs sleep per day and if anything seems tireder.

I've posted our EAS for the last few days to see if there is anything routine wise that jumps out at you.

5th
WU 8.05
Nap 1.45 asleep 1.50 - 4 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.25 asleep 9.55
STTN

6th
WU 8.30
Nap 1.45 asleep 2 - 4
BT into cot 9.20 asleep 9.55
NW 4.45 - 5ish resettled easily in cot

NEW TOOTH
7th
WU 8.50
Nap mayhem, UT to start, left room, playing about, huge poo, OT late nap 3.25 - 4.10 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.15 asleep 9.45 with handholding
Cry outs 2.20 resettled himself
STTN

8th
WU 7.45
Nap into cot 1.00 asleep 1.10 - 3.30 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.20 asleep (tried leaving room, kicked off then needed lots of help) asleep 9.55
STTN

9th
WU 7.50
Nap 1.45 - 3.55
BT into cot 9 asleep 9.55 (complained every time I sat down, kept going over, quick back rub and hands off, eventually sat in chair for last 15min or so)
Crying out 1.40 a few times, resettled himself
STTN

10th
WU 7.50
Nap into cot 1.15 asleep 1.30 - 3.40 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.05 asleep 9.55 (lots of help needed)

Sorry there's so much info to wade through, hope you didn't get too swamped. We would really appreciate your thoughts and any ideas x

[creations]

Really it's amazing you have come so far without any look into routine
My thoughts are that now he is getting a better sleep he actually needs less, there are times when appearing tired can be because toddlers are well rested (do you get that tired/dopey feeling if you have had plenty of sleep? or a lie in?).  This is likely to be the beginning of the journey to nap drop.  12.5hrs is not so bad, same as my DS had.
If you scroll down on this link there is some info about cutting the nap back a bit to increase A time to BT, it should help to maintain BT without it getting later.  Looks like he is extending his second A time by delaying sleep at BT so the chances are he needs a longer afternoon. I very much doubt you want to set BT at 10pm so instead you cap the nap 15 mins earlier and keep BT the same.  Then cut the nap by another 15 mins.  Making a 1.5hr nap, longer A time before BT and less resistance at BT.

The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

Whilst it might seem like little sleep to be getting 10/10.5hr night and 2 hr nap totalling 12hr per 24 the nap in the middle of the day is highly restorative.  As example mine had 2hr nap and 10 hr night but eventually was reducing his night to 9hrs, yet still needed his nap meaning 11hrs sleep in 24 (or even less), when he finally dropped the nap he did something like 11-11.5hr night which extended over time to 12hr and stayed at 12hr from 2.5yo until 4./4.5yo.  At 5yo he is getting roughly 11.5hr.  What I'm saying is that the total hours sleep in 24 don't necessarily keep getting less and less, it can increase with nap-capping and nap-dropping and it can remain steady for a long period after the nap drop too - so don't panic

Looks like you usually have a set nap at 1.45pm, is there a reason there were a couple of days the  nap was not at this time?  Inconsistent time for naps can have an effect on sleep or settling to sleep.

Do we just push and accept there will be crying again or having managed previously do we take it that he needs the extra comfort? Dh wondered if us being there was distracting, but when he did leave the room J got really upset and then took longer to settle again so I'm not sure we're ready for that.

If you cap the nap 15 mins earlier (so max 1hr 45 for nap) this will make him more tired for BT. The restlessness should reduce, let's see hey?
Whilst you're asking though I would say you can give it a go to leave the room. You are *never* abandoning him so you do not need to feel guilty or mean doing this.  I would get him calm, give him a touch and say "night night, call if you need me" and get right out of the room. Put the chair outside.  Return as needed.  As it is you are already spending an hour in there, how much worse do you think it will get by leaving the room and returning when needed?  If you continue to sit he will continue to require you to sit, the longer you do it the more this habit will set in, making that next step out of the door will be harder for him.  Each time you return you can get him nice and calm and then leave. I would always say you are leaving and always say you will come back. When you go back in say "I'm here" or "I'm back", these words are reassuring.
One thing I did a few times when my DS needed me in the room a long time was wait until he was calm and then tell him I really needed the toilet, I told him I would come back after using the bathroom. Sometimes it can help if LO can imagine where you are, so going the bathroom (because they understand that need) or getting a cup of tea (because they've seen you do this before and picture it). Imagining mummy or daddy in a certain place doing a certain thing can be more comforting than imagining mummy 'gone'.  Often I would return to discover DS asleep - so as you DH said it can be a distraction to have you there and yet LO may not want to be the one that says it's ok for you to go.

What do you think?

[evwright]

Hi, thanks for such a great response, I've been working my way through it and all of our routine to have a think about where to start. J has seemed very tired like when we went to one nap - almost falling asleep in his lunch, but you are probably right about the 12 hours being enough. I guess because it is at the lower end that we were trying for a little more and have forgotten about time passing as he is now 21 months! We have also had so many nws previously that we are very aware of dropping below his sleep needs very quickly and easily.

Checking back through his routine I also realised that for a few days nap he got 10 or 15 minutes over the 2hrs so we will begin by making sure it never tips over 2 and see how we go at night before capping further. Thanks for the link on dropping the nap and it's good to know we may get more sleep or at least not any less when we start.

The 1.45pm naps just happened to coincide, we've never actually got as far as a set time for naps and bt due to such poor sleep and especially the long nws that left us all exhausted. Now he is sleeping so much better we can try and get a set routine in place. For what will be a 14hr day should we aim for even A times either side of the nap or do they tend to need one side or the other to be a bit longer? He seems to wake naturally at 7.50 atm, but we will look to bring that a little earlier soon and then again in the summer to get things in place well before he starts nursery in September. For now we would probably go with his natural wake up to get the routine in place then in the short term aim to be up at 7.30, nap at 1 and into bed at 9 to give him that bit longer time to settle at night. Does that seem a good starting point? Some days he has happily taken a 2hr nap after 5hrs A, but then yesterday after his short night he bounced around looking ut after A of 6.5hrs! perhaps it was second wind instead...

The last few days we had two short nws one night and a couple of 9.5hr nights, but he popped back up to 10 last night and generally he is still sttn  We have gone for a more gradual approach as he was still teething, but that tooth popped through last night and we are hoping for a break before canines (he's been a fairly late teether all along).

So we have had the chair outside the room since yesterday's nap with the door open. He only needed a little help at nap, he was running round and bouncing like an idiot so I went in to calm him down and remind him it was time to sleep not trampoline  At bt he did kick off with dh until he stood up instead of sitting, then went off quickly. I think we exhausted him at the park this morning as for today's nap dh said he didn't even look for him, just put his head down and that was it. We'll move completely out of sight for tomorrow's nap and then we thought we would shut the door a couple of days after that. Does that sound sensible? His cot is so close that if the door is only pulled to he can get to open it so I don't think we'll have the option to have it just open a little.

Slightly off topic, but have you any tips for the clocks changing? As we don't have set times quite there yet and J happily does long A times we are considering cold turkey - just waking him at the usual time (so a short night), letting him go to nap slightly early and then the same at bt depending how he looks. Complete madness or might it just work? x

[evwright]

20 mins tonight, no fuss and the way he chose to lay down he didn't see me the whole time  Now please tell me that the yellow, plastic dumper truck currently grasped tightly in his tiny, sleeping hand is not going to be his one true lovey 

[evwright]

I have just sat with cake and tea watching my little boy go to sleep on the monitor!    He settled himself last night with no help or sight of me so hopefully we are well on our way. We'll no doubt be back for setbacks, but right now we just can't believe how far we've come.

We'd be really grateful for advice on getting the routine right, bringing his day forward and dealing with clock changes. Also, we go away in just over 3 weeks. Do you think it is worth trying to get him used to settling in the travel cot at home or would that be more confusing than just going straight to it while in a different environment? We did wonder about doing a trial run at his mamma's in a couple of weeks just to see what happens, but he gets very excited when visiting there and we have struggled to get him to sleep there previously even in arms.

Beloved dumper truck is in hand - now how do I cut that into pieces for first day at nursery??? x

[creations]

Ooh, lots to catch up on. Let me try to answer a few of these questions as I read through

Now he is sleeping so much better we can try and get a set routine in place.

I really do recommend moving directly to set nap and BT, LOs seem to do much better on set times after 12 months.
I'd start with exactly where you are now, nap at 1.45pm and BT whatever it is you're doing (sorry I'm not on the right page to check back your EASY times. Pick whatever is the normal time for BT and stick there).  The A times either side do not need to be even at all, mine did a huge first A time and very short second A time.  Some do better on shorter first A and longer second A...so start with what you have regardless of the A times because it's working pretty well (and any previous suggestions regarding capping or shifting nap take as it being the 1.45 nap and set BT - hope that makes sense).

Some days he has happily taken a 2hr nap after 5hrs A, but then yesterday after his short night he bounced around looking ut after A of 6.5hrs! perhaps it was second wind instead...

I wouldn't change anything based on one day, if he consistently refuses, bounces, short naps or anything else which disturbs sleep then it's time to tweak.

We'll move completely out of sight for tomorrow's nap and then we thought we would shut the door a couple of days after that. Does that sound sensible?

Sounds like a plan. Remember with things like needing to stand up instead of sit, it's fine to do that to reassure...and then sit back down. He is not the one in control of where you are, you are.  He will understand now that when he needs you you will come but that he doesn't get to dictate where you are.  You're all doing great

Slightly off topic, but have you any tips for the clocks changing? As we don't have set times quite there yet and J happily does long A times we are considering cold turkey - just waking him at the usual time (so a short night), letting him go to nap slightly early and then the same at bt depending how he looks. Complete madness or might it just work?

Personally I wouldn't move 1hr in one go but some people do.  My 5yo still finds it hard to shift an entire hour in one go. Last clock change I forgot to do a 30 min change the day before (bad mother!) resulting in OT night screaming. It was only a couple of bad nights but I'd rather avoid it.
At your DS's age I would likely do a 15 min change each day for 4 days to achieve the hour. Write down the times for everything (meals, naps and BT) to keep to your changes.  or do 30 min change hold for a second day then another 30 min change.

Now please tell me that the yellow, plastic dumper truck currently grasped tightly in his tiny, sleeping hand is not going to be his one true lovey

Very funny   There was a night mine was screaming for a spanner in his sleep, he didn't stop until I put the spanner in his hand, I took a photo of him holding it of course. He was about 3yo then.

I have just sat with cake and tea watching my little boy go to sleep on the monitor!

Wow Wow Wow!!!! Wonderful!!!!
Oh goodness, what a lovely feeling I got reading that   What a contrast to walking him up and down, up and down!
Really pleased for you and I hope you enjoyed that cake.

We'd be really grateful for advice on getting the routine right, bringing his day forward and dealing with clock changes.

clock change covered above. Set naps (do it now) covered above.
Changing routine in readiness for nursery I would leave for now. Wait until you are past the clock change, past your trip.
If you find the routine right off and you need a  "getting back on track" thread after your trip I would suggest you use that as a good opportunity to change the routine.  Don't worry if you don't want to change it then, you can do it much close to September, no problem, it isn't going to take long so really it's kind of down to when you want to do it.

Also, we go away in just over 3 weeks.

I wouldn't bother using the travel cot at home or doing a trial run at granny's.  When you go away he is going to know he is in a different place, reassure him, be prepared to help him more if needed, do not worry at all about props or going backwards with what you have achieved. When you come home do not continue the props just go right back to how you are now, eating cake, drinking tea and responding when needed. He will know he is back at home and home rules apply.

Beloved dumper truck is in hand - now how do I cut that into pieces for first day at nursery???

Goodness me, you're testing my creativity there aren't you Erm...dump truck wheel key ring attached to his book bag 

[evwright]

Hi Creations,

Thank-you thank-you thank-you for your warm support and for wading through my lengthy posts to give all that great advice. We really can't believe how far we have come and just need to keep putting everything we have learned into practise when we hit new bumps in the road to sleep. BT is still a little more difficult than nap and we had a horrible nw last night (we assume a nightmare), but we are almost there. Jacob is settling himself wonderfully and sttn most of the time now, dumper trick is in hand and the tea and cake have tasted brilliant

I think we'll give a little tweak to routine to just move his day forward a little (after clock change as you suggested) then prepare for nursery late in the summer. I think we will probably be nap capping before too long as he is sleeping a little longer at night and we are just going to run out of hours in the day. Thanks for the link and especially for taking the fear out of even approaching the nap dropping thread after spending so long trying to get him to nap well 

It really has meant so much to have you there and I love thinking about the photo of your little one sleeping, spanner in hand 

Oops, 2 hours plus again, better go and wake him x

[creations]

You are most welcome.
I do enjoy a happy wean

...and before you know it you'll be sharing your experience with others in the BW community, holding their hand and telling them it will all be okay   You're the GW expert now 

[creations]

Maybe you'd like to share your success story here?
Success Stories for Sleep Training (please post link here)

[evwright]

Thought I would just provide a quick update before posting on the success stories thread. We have been out of the room for just over a week. A bad nightmare a few days ago led to a slight regression at bt with him being really clingy, but with some extra comfort he has still been settling himself to sleep while we are downstairs and we haven't got caught back in his room Generally he is still STTN and wakings have been far easier to settle than before st. Now if we could just stop the messy nappies at or just after he lies down for naptime... 

[creations]

Great update - well not the part about the nappies but the rest - so pleased for you