Starting gw today - advice and hand holding please

[evwright]

We are still doing well here despite illness.  Jacob has settled himself for all naps and at bt with just a little reassurance and hand-holding. We have had no crying or protests since day two. Naps are just taking five minutes (which is about the same as previously), bt is taking longer at 15-30 minutes, but that is often less than when we were walking him. It is also difficult to tell exactly when he falls asleep as he has taken to facing the other way and dh has fallen asleep first on at least one occasion  J has also sttn apart from when he woke ill

We can't believe how well it has gone so far and it is perfect timing as with how ill we have been there would have been no way we could walk him. We are going to stay as we are until he is fully better and then start actual withdrawal after a couple of days. At the moment he is just hand-holding so I assume the next step will be to reduce that contact until just our presence is enough? His room is tiny so we are almost at the door already and will have to start opening it to move further away. How small/large should each step be - a foot per move would see us out the door in three or four steps, does that seem reasonable or should we be thinking quicker/slower? It would be good to have a plan ready as we had expected to take far longer to get this far x

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You're all doing absolutely brilliantly
You really have come a long way in a short time, well done

OK, so moving on...
I can understand that you want to hold where you are for now due to the illness, you move on when you feel it is time.
What I will say, usually with GW you keep moving forward.  If you pause for too long on one particular step LO will become accustomed to this as the new rule and will then become more upset when you change the rules again (it may lead to another 3 days of screaming).  When you keep moving forward in small steps it's kind of 2 steps forward 1 back because he gets upset you go back a bit to reassure but then move on again, this way you don't get 'caught' or 'stuck' with falling to sleep requiring this or that prop.
My advice would be to look at the hand holding. Are you holding his hand or is he holding yours?
You might consider this is something you can still move forwards on even now, even though he is a bit poorly (because you are never leaving him without support, you are always responding when needed), if you don't feel ready that's fine, just take into account what I've said above.
The hand hold then, if he has hold of you and it's a pretty tight grip you need to change this next.  If he wants to hold something get something else into his hand for him to grip and keep your hand very firmly on him, reassure with your voice "it's ok, you hold teddy/muslin/lovey I'll hold you, I'm right here."  If though you have hold of his hand you are already the next step on, gradually reduce the pressure of holding, you can still begin every sleep with firm pressure but reduce the pressure in a more rapid way, begin to take your hand off and put it back without him having chance to be upset, then take it off and return it if he makes noise (and perhaps use your key phrase at the same time or "it's ok, you're going to sleep now"), after returning your hand keep a thought to removing it again.  It's a backwards and forwards thing, reassuring then removing.
Once you are able to let go of his hand and he falls to sleep I will suggest the next step is to say "night night, call if you need me" and leave the room.  You don't know until you try
If he screams blue murder then resettle and consider taking slower steps...but I think this is worth a try because by you returning he learns something else, that you always return when he needs you and this is a great point of trust, he doesn't 'need' to keep you in the room because you will always always come back. Return without delay (I would only go as far as outside to door in these early days), use your voice "I'm coming" "I'm back" take his hand if that's all that is needed and say "it's ok, you're going to sleep" etc.  At any stage it is still ok to pick up if he is very upset or ill or any reason you feel you want to pick up, there is no problem with this, only once he is ready you put him back in his cot, do your usual soothing (hand holding, key phrase) and move on and forward.
If it turns out you need to move slowly from the room stage by stage we can cover that when needed - it might be that you let go of his hand and move a foot away and wait (returning to his hand as needed then returning to your position) or it might be that you can begin the withdrawal by regular WD and comfort, key phrase, I'm going now call if you need, leave the room, even if you return half a second later.  Let's see what's needed by his level of confidence or upset when you try it.

You might also use the phrase "I'm going xyz/kitchen/toilet, I'm coming back" and "I'm back" during the day. This key aspect of telling him you are leaving and that you will return, then telling him you have returned may be useful for the sleep time confidence.

I hope you have managed to miss this nasty bug - and healthy vibes to your boy and DH, hope they are feeling better x

[evwright]

Hi, thanks for your positive support and giving such thought to a detailed reply, it really does help 

We have all been ill unfortunately so this process going smoothly so far has been an absolute life saver. A week ago I spent over an hour walking up and down the hall to get him to sleep and into his cot and that wasn't unusual

I guess I have seen so many comments about not st or expecting things to regress during illness that we may be a little too cautious. It has been a mix of us offering a hand to hold and him searching for it. He has generally held on tightly to a couple of fingers and we have kept testing his grip gently. However, although he looked for dad's hand at nap today to begin with, he then settled quickly without any contact so we probably should look to move forward at this point. DH has done the last couple of days as I was too ill so it will be interesting to see how I go tonight. BT always takes longer and seems more difficult. Is that usual or considering how quickly he settles at nap is there anything we should consider routine wise? I would be a little wary of changing much when he is sleeping so well atm, didn't know if lo's just need longer to settle and process the day at bt.

He cuddled his tiger the first couple of days, but doesn't seem particularly attached to any one thing and it would have to be small as he falls asleep on his front with his hands tucked underneath. We may have to head out and let him choose a new cuddle or maybe a really soft blanket if he is still searching for something to hold.

If we get a couple of days without any handholding I think your suggestion of leaving briefly is a good plan as the room is so small. As you say, it tests the waters and he learns that we return if he needs us. I think as naps are so much easier we can use them as a testing ground for each new stage without upsetting things too much x

[creations]

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that you were ill too - bad luck
It really is amazing to think you were carrying and walking him for an hour+ every sleep, you must be very strong!!

It's true you should not expect too much of LO when he is ill, and usually we would recommend not doing sleep training or dropping props during illness when LO needs you so much, but as you had already started it didn't seem worth going back.  For sure LOs do tend to need extra support through illness, teething and developmental leaps etc but with BW methods you never deny support.  With my LO I give him extra support when ever he needs it, but that doesn't mean carrying him for an hour, I just can't do it, what I can do is sit with him on me, cuddle him, speak to him, stroke his head...all sorts of closeness and for longer than he would need at other times but it is support rather than being held to ransom - I think you know the difference   Funny enough my DS's illnesses have always helped us with a routine change!  It's like everything is off track anyway so it can't get any worse, yk?

So, a lovey perhaps?  I am a huge fan of the lovey.  If LO attaches to an item it can provide a *huge* amount of comfort, almost magic.  Whilst you can't force that magic you can have a go at encouraging it.  My DS uses a muslin square (ten a penny, perhaps you already have some for mopping up dribbles?), there is a never ending supply of muslins so we never fear one being dirty or lost (a lost lovey is almost the end of the world, whatever he attaches to get another one as back up so you can keep them clean) and when he was 3yo and starting nursery he took a cut up muslin (to the size of a small pocket handkerchief) in his trouser pocket to nursery. The first few weeks he held that muslin the entire time.  Now at 5yo he has it in his school trousers, he gains so much confidence knowing it is there and no nursery or school would ever tell me he can't have a handkerchief where as they do tend to discourage or not allow cuddly toys in nursery and school.  Oh muslins are also easy to fall asleep tucked under him too.  Mine particularly likes the washing label and rubs it...he rubbed them so much we had to do a batch replacement of labels with some silky ribbon lol
If you choose to encourage one, whatever it might be, carry it with you up your top for a bit or sleep with it yourself so it smells of you. Hold it every time you cuddle him and comfort him, not just at nap/BT but throughout the day, if he has a little bump and needs a cuddle get the lovey and have it with/between you or him holding it etc.
At nap/BT you can then put that in his hand so he has something to grasp but you keep your hand there too for the added comfort as he won't attach to the item instantly.

WRT BT taking longer.
Do you feel that he is getting his regular naps again now?  Is he in the routine you were using before the ST began?  I assume he is sleeping more/better at night due to not having long drawn out NWs but I also assume his sleep is still off track due to either ST, illness or both.  I would say just now that his routine is not likely settled enough to look at tweaking which is why I've not asked for your EAS times, but if you feel it has already settled down then please do post your EAS times and I'll have a look.

I hope you all have a good night x

[evwright]

Hi, well we are almost feeling human again - I haven't felt like this since I had morning sickness. Thankfully it didn't take an hour for every sleep, but most nights were at least 30 mins and nws were very long indeed. We aren't strong (in fact I have chronic fatigue), just physically wrecked!

He has gone down easily at naps ever since the 2-1, which we did at 13/14 months. Bt has always been more of an issue. Due to really poor sleep previously we hadn't established a good routine - and all the recent nws left us exhausted, lying in whenever we could and so our day is skewed rather late. Something we really want to address before the clocks change. Once things settle a little more I'll post our EAS and see how things look. Having said that, since we started st he has sttn 5 out of 7 and we have had to wake him from some naps at the 2hr mark. We do struggle to get nights of more than 10 - 10.5 hrs and again hopefully once we get a better routine we can find out if J is lsn or if we can improve night length.

We have had a couple of days where he has taken longer to settle, 15 mins for one nap and up to an hour one bt (versus 5-10min for nap and 30min at bt). Last night we had nw at 4 that lasted about an hour. He was upset at first and had cuddles and a bit of handholding, but he did go back to sleep on his own in the end. We couldn't work out if he has been more unsettled due to some being me rather than dh, feeling better and not so sleepy, trying to remove the handholding or the typical one week regression. Tonight will be telling as he went down easily for today's nap with dh, but it's me tonight. We have had 2 days where he had a little hand-holding during settling, but actually went to sleep without. Then at today's nap dh went and sat in the chair at the other end of his room - only a few feet away as it is tiny - but we had been lying next to the cot. There was a small grumble, but he didn't stand up, dh said don't worry I'm here, time for sleep...

...and off to sleep he went 

Not sure if I'll be able to do the same tonight as bt's are more difficult to settle. Also he acts very differently with each of us, he has always sought out skin contact with me that he didn't with dh. We only weaned fully at new year and he has stayed close physically to me since and there are always little hands rummaging in my clothes to cuddle. So I will give it a go and see what happens as it is a good next step. The chair is as far away as we can be in his room - although at the opposite end to the door. So from there the next step would be to leave the room. We'll see how the next couple of days go and then plan for getting out of the room if things are going well.

Thanks for ideas re loveys. We do have lots of muslins and he used to love them so definitely worth a go. We have the same preoccupation labels here  I love the picture you painted of your lo starting nursery and school with such a strong comfort right there in his pocket  x

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There was a small grumble, but he didn't stand up, dh said don't worry I'm here, time for sleep...

...and off to sleep he went 

You've actually brought tears to my eyes!!!!  In a good way!!
I remember my DS giving me a smile just before I left the room, it is such an amazing feeling to know you have helped your child to feel confident, I think that must be how you and DH are feeling now

I would not pin too much on one sleep or another taking a bit longer just yet, it's a bit too close to illness and sleep training to really get a good idea of routine but I would record times and moods from here if you are not already. That way you can see if a pattern emerges.

I'm so pleased for you all, what wonderful progress.

[evwright]

Thank-you for such a lovely response. Thought I'd add a quick update to say that I sat in the chair tonight - he had a few grumbly cries when he realised I wasn't in reach so I went over and gave him his tiger to cuddle, then he quietly settled himself. It took just 20 mins x

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Wonderful

[evwright]

We have had a couple more days of settling to sleep while we sit in the chair and J has sttn, however tonight he kept getting upset and needed a hand on his back to get to sleep. It was day 10. He has had a bit of SA the last day or two, which is unusual for him. Not sure if it is related to the st or something else. We are still feeling the effects of the bug (actually now think it was food poisoning) although he is eating well again and is pretty bouncy. He is teething again (we've been medicating before bed), but we didn't have any SA for his molars. He is usually fine for us to leave the room during the day, play in his cot on his own while we get ready in the morning etc. so we are wondering whether to give him a couple more days before trying to leave his the room or to push ahead and see what happens. What do you think?

[creations]

There's no harm in going ahead in trying to leave his room. Even if he has some SA you will always return to him anyway and give him the help he needs so it's not like you are leaving the room and refusing to go back ,yk?

there's a language leap around 21 months, it caused *huge* disturbance here for several days, there is a chance this is coming.  when there is ST or props or teething or illness in the mix it is never easy to work out exactly which one is the culprit for disturbance, in a way it kind of doesn't matter because you still respond as needed and move on when you can. I know when mine hit that language leap it caused lots of sleep disturbance.  so maybe this, maybe not.
It could also be that now you have been through ST he is getting a bit more sleep and possibly UT at nap or BT, fussing, clinginess and what looks like SA can be an attempt to communicate they are not ready to sleep yet.

You're doing everything right though

[evwright]

Well depending on which way you look at it life either conspired against us this afternoon or gave us a great opportunity to see how he responds when we leave the room. He looked really tired and we needed to go out so we tried for a nap and found out what UT looks like, he was just playing in the cot, trying to get dh to play, bouncing up and down etc. So dh left the room to get ready on the basis that either J would go to sleep or get upset. Instead he just carried on bits of playing, bits of lying down and trying to settle, so we left it like that with his mamma watching on the monitor when we went out. Then when he started acting differently and grumbling more she went into his room and found that something incredibly stinky had happened, so he was changed and came downstairs - there's no way he would go to sleep in the cot with mamma about, she's far too exciting 

We got him down for a late 45min nap with some handholding and rubbing as he was so OT by then and found a new tooth when we woke him. Poor lad, he's done well today with everything that's been thrown at him. No doubt its pair will be following just behind, so we'll see how he feels tonight, try leaving again but not push too hard. His SA has been during the day when being left at grandparents or anywhere on his own in the house rather than particularly at nap/bt and having seen the UT nap today I think it is probably a mix of things going on. I get what you mean about response being the same all important rather than trying too hard to understand what is going on - very guilty of overthinking things here thankfully dh is good at keeping things moving forward.

Thanks for the heads up on the language leap, I knew there was something around now. x

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very guilty of overthinking things here

Oh we can all do that from time to time - I've stayed on the forums for almost 5 years now which really helps to keep things in perspective and get support for the various things that crop up for us.

Did you introduce a lovey yet? Just thinking how much comfort it gave my DS through teething, we wouldn’t have been without it.

Don't worry about today, there are going to be off days here and there for various reasons, just pick up again the next day and roll with it a bit
You're still doing great.

[evwright]

Thanks for the encouragement. I spent bt yesterday handholding for half an hour until he fell asleep and wondering if I should have pushed him more (he screamed and got really upset each time I took my hand away) or whether the extra comfort was necessary and I was doing the right thing. We heard him crying out at about 2am, but then it was morning and he hadn't got us up. However, he has massive swollen gum and was a very grumpy boy this morning bless him so I went up for nap expecting more of the same. Went to sit in the chair and there was a grumble, then he started singing, a few acrobatics before snuggling to sleep  Just so glad that we haven't undone our work so far and he just bounced back like that.

So dh is in the chair tonight and out the door tomorrow all being well. Hopefully we'll have the tooth today looking at how close it is and how quickly the other popped through.

We've tried for a lovey, but even his beloved tiger gets thrown at us if we try to replace a hand with something else. He snuggles up against anything soft, but apart from chewing his fingers he doesn't seem to want anything else to hold at the moment. No doubt that will change again before long so we'll keep a few things on hand and see x

[creations]

Great great great!
Really you are all doing so well

he screamed and got really upset each time I took my hand away) or whether the extra comfort was necessary and I was doing the right thing.

It sounds to me like the extra comfort was needed.  What you might be able to do it a bit of on-off on the hand, kind of patting, rubbing ,holding, so that he is getting the holding he wants but also you are moving around a bit with it, when you take your hand off it is for a split second and back on so he still feels totally supported but so that he doesn't get into the fixed habit of feeling a firm hand holding his in an un-moving way. Hope this makes sense.  I'm not suggesting less support when he needs it, only that the support can be more 'moving' to avoid a harder habit to break.

keep going

[evwright]

Hi, we are a little stuck at this end and are wondering how to move things forward again. For most naps we can sit in the chair and he will settle himself to sleep within 5 - 10 minutes, today he needed a little back rub but he was asking for it to help him wind down rather than being upset. At bt things can be taking up to an hour and he keeps standing and getting upset. If we go over to the cot and say lie down he will, but not if we say it from the chair. Last night I had to keep just laying my hand on his back lightly and lifting it off (rather than let him get a hand hold at all). If I then stayed by the cot he would try and settle, but when I stepped away we had to go through the same routine again. For the last 15 minutes I was able to sit down and he didn't need me again, but that was after a lot of help settling. He was about the same for dh tonight, but by the time he settled dh didn't have a chance to reach the chair. Both days he was into cot 13hrs after WU and 5 to 5.5hrs after nap.

He is teething (we are waiting for the pair to the new tooth that cut a few days ago) however we medicate and he didn't seem in any discomfort. We are also over the illness, though it's only been a few days so could that be it?

We want to keep moving things gently forward and don't know the best way as he seems unable to settle himself at bt especially without more help again. Do we just push and accept there will be crying again or having managed previously do we take it that he needs the extra comfort? Dh wondered if us being there was distracting, but when he did leave the room J got really upset and then took longer to settle again so I'm not sure we're ready for that.

His nights are typically 10 to 10.5 hrs and we usually wake him around the 2hr mark for naps. We have always had a late day and hope to keep bringing this forward over time, especially if we can regularly get nights longer than 10hrs. Although he has slept far better since starting st he is still getting only 12 to 12.5hrs sleep per day and if anything seems tireder.

I've posted our EAS for the last few days to see if there is anything routine wise that jumps out at you.

5th
WU 8.05
Nap 1.45 asleep 1.50 - 4 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.25 asleep 9.55
STTN

6th
WU 8.30
Nap 1.45 asleep 2 - 4
BT into cot 9.20 asleep 9.55
NW 4.45 - 5ish resettled easily in cot

NEW TOOTH
7th
WU 8.50
Nap mayhem, UT to start, left room, playing about, huge poo, OT late nap 3.25 - 4.10 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.15 asleep 9.45 with handholding
Cry outs 2.20 resettled himself
STTN

8th
WU 7.45
Nap into cot 1.00 asleep 1.10 - 3.30 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.20 asleep (tried leaving room, kicked off then needed lots of help) asleep 9.55
STTN

9th
WU 7.50
Nap 1.45 - 3.55
BT into cot 9 asleep 9.55 (complained every time I sat down, kept going over, quick back rub and hands off, eventually sat in chair for last 15min or so)
Crying out 1.40 a few times, resettled himself
STTN

10th
WU 7.50
Nap into cot 1.15 asleep 1.30 - 3.40 (we woke)
BT into cot 9.05 asleep 9.55 (lots of help needed)

Sorry there's so much info to wade through, hope you didn't get too swamped. We would really appreciate your thoughts and any ideas x