5mo A push for improved second nap?

[labrodyk]

Hi ladies!!

I've been working so hard with DD to get a better pattern happening and the last few days I've pushed her A to 2hrs20m. First nap in weeks DD has slept a full 2 hours. I did the same thing for the second A and got a protest going to sleep (not unusual for us as she is prone to loud mantra crying even as we enter her bedroom) but she slept 40 minutes and then lay quietly for another 40 minutes before finally crying to get up. The day finished with a quick 15minutes in the car with bedtime at 2hrs15m A, taking 20 minutes to get to sleep.

Should I do a few more days of 2hrs 20m and see what I get for that second nap or should I nudge that one a little more leaving the morning as it is? That late afternoon nap is falling really late for reasonable bedtime but not sure how much I can push her to without making her super OT.

She's definitely teething so have been using gel and ibuprofen when necessary. She also still wakes usually once at night for a bottle but this has a tendency to affect all milk feeds through the day. She's never been a big milk drinker but absolutely inhales solids now. She's putting on heaps of weight and she's happy and smiley through the day even with crappy naps.

Could I please get a little help?!

Today's EASY;

NW: 1.35-1.45
NF: 1.45 (200ml)
S: 2.00-6.40. Always falls asleep on bottle.

WU: 6.40
OOB: 7.00
E: 7.00 (90ml)
A:
E: 8.00 (solids)
A:
S: 9.20; 9.25-11.25
E: 11.30 (30ml)
A:
E: 12.00 solids
A:
E: 1.00 (110ml)
A:
S: 1.35; 1.45-2.30. Lay quietly until 3.12
E: 3.30 (90ml)
A:
S: 5-5.15pm
E: 5.30 (solids)
A:
E: 7.00 (150ml)
BT: 7.20; asleep 7.40pm

NF: 1.00. Falls asleep on bottle.
S: 1.15-7.05. Cry out briefly at 5am but resettled.

WU: 7.05
E: 7.30 (didn't want milk!)
A:
S: 9.20; 9.30-10.09. Lay awake staring, chewing fingers, playing with lovey. Whinged a little before I got her up.

I thought I was on the right track wit her A time but every day is so different! Please help, thank you so much!!!

[Bella89]

Hi there,
so sorry your having a hard time. I'll try to help a little

First of all, 2h nap is a pretty good one! That's why she was probably UT that second A time. I would push that one. At that age she can probably do more than 2h.

I understand when LOs don't like milk that much, believe me. At 5 mo we still have to remember that it is very important, should stay the most important source of nutrients.
At what age you started solids?
I am asking, because even if it feels ok for our kids (they eat like crazy, because they like the taste) their body cannot cope with it hence crappy naps and NW.

I think you are doing a great job increasing that A time. I think you are at the beginning of 3-2 transition.
Please, look at the link below:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[labrodyk]

Thanks so much!!

I started solids at 4 months as per pediatrician recommendations due to silent reflux and it has helped immensely with that. To be honest the introduction of solids hasn't affected the napping situation because they've never been great so it's not like everything went bad once I started food.

As for milk, she just will not drink it - unless it's a night feed and she'll drink well. The rest of her bottles she still feeds terribly. Distracted, disinterested, even at the 4he mark. the one morning she's slept through she still wouldn't drink any bottle (maybe 50ml at most). I've pulled back all solids and not offered but she still has little to no interest in her milk.

Ok, so I'm at 2hrs20min A time for all naps, should I increase that and by how much?!


This morning she woke at 6.40 but I didn't get her until closer to 7.00. Down for a nap at 9.30am and she's still asleep now at 12pm! What A time should I be pushing for when she wakes?

It went like this...
S: 9.30; 9.38-12.30
E: 12.40 (150ml)
A: was showing tired signs at 2.00pm and falling asleep in the car just before 3.00. Got home to put her down.
S: 3.05; 3.30-4.00
^^mantra crying and fusing to go to sleep. Woke and lay quietly for a while.
E: 4.30 (150ml)
A:
E: 6.15
BT: 6.30; chatting and playing with lovey until 7.00

[Bella89]

Congrats on that first nap:) Yay!

I think you can easily increase second A time by 15 min (she had almost 3h first A time anyways).
I think even if she was showing tired signs really early, it could easily be her going out of a long nap. At this age, she can do 2h30-2h45 for sure.
Keep that BT closer to 7, it looks like she is not tired before then.It will save you the struggle:)

[labrodyk]

Thanks! Her tired signs are all over the place at the moment so I'm not sure what I'm doing because her naps don't correlate. 2.5-2.45 A time gives such varied results.

She slept through the night last night without a feed.
BT: 6.30; 7.00 asleep
WU: 6.46

Tired signs from 9.00am but I put her down just before 9.30am, and she only slept just over 1hr, max 1hr20min...

Well that was a horrible day!! Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong!? We're back home now and she only sleeps through at my parents' house so could be a long night!

WU: 6.46
OOB: 7.00
S: 9.25; 9.40- before 10.58!
S: 1.30-1.53 (car. Why won't she sleep longer when I'm driving non stop down a highway)?
S: 3.00 for a couple of minutes whilst I shush/patted in my
arms. crying in my arms.
E: 3.15pm
S: 4.07; patted in my arms then put into bed. Slept 10 minutes.
BT: 6.50; asleep 7.10/15pm
NW: 4.00. Woke chatting and just whinging a little. Escaleated to crying after 20 minutes.
NF: 4.25 (120ml)
S: 4.37-7.30am

WU: 7.30am
E: 7.45 (180ml). This feed and all feeds takes over an hour she's so disinterested and leaves 50ml minimum in her bottles.

[Bella89]

Dear mama,
Take a deep breath, a step back for a second. Your baby has grown up and needs more time to play! The world is so fun:)
The reson she takes such short naps is probably because she has too many opportunities to nap. 10 min here and there and she is fine;) what we want here to happen is to take less naps, but really good ones. Long ones.
Once you get into OT/UT cycle it's difficult. Sometimes the only way to get out of it is to OT them just a little bit more but bring consistency at the same time. So i.e. Implement a schedule for 3-4 days, so LO would no whats about to happen.
What if you tried something like this and stick to it for 3 days in a row (do not torture your baby though, you know what she can do;)
7WU
9:45-11 nap1
1:45-? Nap2
5-6. Nap3
7 start BT routine

Then after 3 days we could do:
7 Wu
10-? Nap1
2-? Nap 2
5-6 nap 3 but do not go over 6

Its hard to predict, but do 2h45min a time for 3-4 days and then push it to 3h.
She will seem tired, but it's not because she needs these naps, but because she got used to them.
We need to help her through the transition.

Ultimately we want this:
7WU
10-11:30 or 12 nap 1
3-4:30 or 5
7 BT

What do you think? You wanna give it a try?

[labrodyk]

Oh Bella, thank you so very much for helping me! I really appreciate it and sorry I'm such a ball of stress... This sleep obsession is something I'm working on but I can't seem to shake it, even after 3 years. Probably because of how poorly my son slept and still does at 3.5yo.

After her 4am wake and mini feed this morning our day has gone pretty well with the A push! I didn't read your message until after first nap so I pushed second A to 2.45 as you suggested and she napped 1hr15min. I assumed I should do an EBT of 6.30 but she rolled around for almost an hour before falling asleep. I really don't know what that last A should be?!

WU: 7.30
Nap 1: 10.00; 10.05-11.35
Nap 2: 2.17; 2.25-3.43
BT: 6.25; 7.22pm asleep
NW: 4.00am. Chatted, rolled around for over 30 minutes before crying when I fed her.
NF: 4.50am (150ml drained!)
S: 5.15am

WU: 7.20
OOB: 7.36
Nap 1: 10.00; 10.10 - 10.38 asleep.
Nap: 10.00; 10.10-10.38. Resettled herself and slept 10.55-11.36
^^ cried and was upset/tired all morning.

Unfortunately my 3yo DS is really sick so we all slept in today. Not off to a good start routine wise

Could you please help me with a couple of things?

1) should I always wake at 7am? I suppose this will help set her body clock
2) what A time should I be aiming for before bed? I did 2.5hrs after a 1hr15min nap and she rolled around for over an hour? Is that UT or OT?
3) I'm putting Audrey into bed at these times vs. having her asleep, is that ok?
4) what do I do with the next A time if she short naps say 30-40 minutes? Or more
importantly, less than 1.5hrs?
5) waking at 4am and playing, rolling and chatting for considerable time before crying! Should I resettle or feed her when the crying escalates? This is what I've been doing....
6) her milk intake is so minimal. Today I was lucky if I got 100ml each of her 4 bottles! 120ml before bed but then at 4/5am she'll inhale 150ml and want more but that messes up our first feed which she already doesn't want even if she sleeps all night.
I can't get her to drink any more milk (solids or no solids) and it takes me over an hour to feed her that small amount of milk despite being on the fastest flow bottle teats. She's almost 8kg so no issues with putting on weight!

Thank you so much,
Laura.

[Bella89]

Oh don't worry about it! We all have a hard time during this transitions <hugs>

Nap 1: 10.00; 10.05-11.35

Hey that's a good nap! Congrats:)

Remember that she was on 3 naps not so long ago and she still needs a lot of sleep. It's always better to cut that 3rd nap shorter and shorter rather than eliminate it right away. Could you bring the second nap closer and fir it 30 min cat nap in there?

1) should I always wake at 7am? I suppose this will help set her body clock

It depends what you want/need to do... If you have a school run than you have to anyway. I never did, because I never had to and my DS never sleeps longer than 8 (randomly).Plus I figured he needs to be well rested to start his day, so I didn't want to cut any sleep.

2) what A time should I be aiming for before bed? I did 2.5hrs after a 1hr15min nap and she rolled around for over an hour? Is that UT or OT?

In my opinion, if they are happyish, stand up/sit up they are UT, if they roll over and mantra cry during it's OT. I have a feeling she was OT. It's a really difficult one to be honest. I never mastered at it:/

3) I'm putting Audrey into bed at these times vs. having her asleep, is that ok?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand:) Are you asking if it's better to put LO in the crib when she is awake to self settle or aleep already?

4) what do I do with the next A time if she short naps say 30-40 minutes? Or more importantly, less than 1.5hrs?

It's difficult to say at this time, because we don't know how her day will look like then. If she will be UT/OT etc. Remember she had many opportunities to sleep before. Now she has to learn how to accomodate this sleep into 2 naps.

5) waking at 4am and playing, rolling and chatting for considerable time before crying! Should I resettle or feed her when the crying escalates? This is what I've been doing....

She was well rested so played a while. Than she got bored and hungry ;] This is also up to you. The only thing that helped my DS (and it was brutal) was getting up at 4am, getting dressed E at 4:30 and starting the day. The reason for EW is most likely short first A time. That's why when you start the day at 4.00 and increase first A time systematicaly, you will teach DD body to rest well because it won't be easy to handle a day that long;] It took up 1 week of this horror but helped as nothing did. You have to bring BT closer though and then shift entire day in time. Does that make sense?

6) her milk intake is so minimal. Today I was lucky if I got 100ml each of her 4 bottles! 120ml before bed but then at 4/5am she'll inhale 150ml and want more but that messes up our first feed which she already doesn't want even if she sleeps all night.

Again, starting the day at this time might help you turn it into a breakfast. I never limited formula to DS. I personally, would give her whatever she needs. She weights well, so I don't think you have to worry that much. You still have to offer though. Sometimes cutting on solids might help you as she is not 6 months yet:)

[labrodyk]

Thank you so much for replying!

I'm struggling with keeping her awake for 2hrs 45minutes. She's crying and upset from 2hrs 15min and I have to to keep pushing and pushing. She fell asleep as I was putting her into her cot this morning...

That good nap came after only 2.5hrs awake, yesterday wasn't as good but she slept through the night to make up for it. .

Monday 14/3
WU: 7.20am
OOB: 7.36am
Nap: 10.00; 10.10-10.38. Resettled and slept 10.55-11.36
^^ cried and was upset/tired all morning.
Nap 2: 2.20; 2.25-2.55
^^ real struggle keeping her happy. Cried trying to self settle. Woke rolling around and crying after 15 minutes then got the hiccups. Tried to resettle her until 3.40 but she woke a couple of minutes after I left the room.
Nap 3: 5.00; 5.15-5.45
^^protested and cried for 15 minutes.
BT: 7.40, asleep by 8.00

Tuesday 15/3
WU: 6.30. Out of bed at 6.45
Nap 1: 9.14; 9.15
^ crying and upset, tired signs from 8.30am
Nap 1: 9.14; 9.15-9.54; RS quickly - 10.36.
^^ woke up and rolled around awake not crying but then rolled to tummy and couldn't get back.
Nap 2: 1.18, 1.28-2.08. RS herself after 10 minutes - 3.08
^^screamed the house down settling, so OT. Woke yawning and trying to get back to sleep then resettled. Rolled into tummy when woke again and crying.
Nap 3: 5.28; attempted but she was screaming.
BT: 5.56, fell asleep in bottle briefly. Woke her and she fell asleep 6.06 woke an hour later at 7.06. Rolling over and over and over and I have to flip her back because she's crying and can't get back.

I hope I'm doing the right thing....

[labrodyk]

My happy smiling girl has completely disappeared! She's not stopped crying all day and both naps are super short. With a much shorter A time she was at least getting 1.5-2hrs sleep (although not reliably). Now she just seems miserable and won't let me put her down, crying constantly and rubbing her eyes after I get her up from a 1hr 15min nap. It's not enough sleep for her....

[Bella89]

You are always right, you always will be because you know her best.
If you feel like it will be better to pull back on A time- do it without a hesitation!
There is no point in pushing so drastically.

It's better to adjust A times slowly i.e. if she did 2h 15 min not so long ago, add 10 min and no more.Remember it's all about finding the right balance.

I noticed in your original post  her first A time was 2h 40 min, so you haven't really changed anything in that matter.
That gets me thinking... Is there a chance something else is going on? Teething, developmental stuff like she learned how to roll over recently?
Sleep regression is common at 5-6 months:/

I think she is OT right now, and you have to help her get out of this cycle. Remember that you had a reasonable first A time 2h 40 min. If she will sleep 2h like she used to, she will be restedto handle another 2h 40 min a time.

<hugs>

[labrodyk]

Oh bella, I don't know what's going on!!

She's teething I think but that seems to have been going on forever. Possibly developmental. She just seems so tired and I'm really having to entertain her to stay awake and happy which to me tells me I'm getting it wrong somewhere!

She's just learnt to roll from tummy to back so that could be it too, having rolled back to tummy for a month?!

She's woken now at 2.00 mantra crying, saying 'dad dad' and rolling onto her tummy and then screaming because she can't get back. I think I'll just feed her because I don't want her to get even more OT...

She's 5mo and 1 week now!

[Bella89]

I think she is having a hard time because she learned so many new things lately.
It's not that it helps because you cannot fix it, but it is good to know.
When they do learn, sometimes their brain is processing new things and they cannot sleep.
I remember my DS when he learned to roll over to his tummy, could not go to sleep and I had to turn him over like 20 times each nap:/

Sometimes when they are tired like that it;s good to just give them a break and let them sleep. Do what your heart tells you <hugs>

I am so sorry I don't have golden advice for you:(
Stay positive and hang in there!

I'm here if you need anything.

[labrodyk]

Thank you so much Bella! I put her down earlier this morning because she just wouldn't stop crying but of course she's done another 30-40 minutes despite falling asleep relatively quickly...

I don't know what to do now, I'm so confused.

[labrodyk]

What do you make of this day and night please? She's still OT in my eyes but I don't know how to fix it.

Tuesday
BT: 5.55; 6.06 asleep
NW: 7.06-7.20. Rolling over, couldn't roll back.
NW: 2.00am - rolling over, calling out, dad-dad.
NF:2.30 (150ml)
S: 2.50-6.50

Wednesday
WU: 6.50
Nap 1: 9.11, 9.15-9.49
A: went to the shops and didn't make it back.
Nap 2: 1.10-3.18. Kind of dozed on and off for the 2 hours but didn't cry out or anything.
BT: 5.55, 6.20-7.00.
^^ babbling and rolling over then crying. Fell asleep then woke and rolled over, chatting before crying. Rolled her back countless times before she finally fell asleep at 7.30