4 month old: around 4 night feeds. Too many? Habit?

[tipofthetree]

Pretty much guaranteed he wakes within an hour of bed, and usually gets a feed off mum, or I rock him back to sleep. After that, if it's been about 2hrs since his last feed, mum will feed him when he wakes.

- Mum says he's fed often in the day as well, so shouldn't be making up for that.
- Is this just habit?
- Does he need it as he's a growing boy?

His sleep descended into this frequent routine about 6 weeks or more ago I think.

[Buntybear]

Hi - sorry your post has been missed - I shall bump it for you.

In the meantime could you post your EASY as this may show something up? Thanks

[lauradj]

Hi there!  It's a little hard to tell from what information you've given. Would you or your wife be able to write his EASY down for a day or two so we can see exactly what is happening and when?  It sounds like that first feed is likely habit, as you say it always happens at the same time but otherwise, if he always feeds when he wakes, he likely needs it.  Can you also tell us whether he's EBF?

[weaver]

There is a big GS around 4 mos, but if this is what he's been doing all along, then it's not because he's growing *right now*.  Waking an hour after BT would usually be an indication of OT, so attention to routine might help fix that.  More information would be really useful!

[tipofthetree]

Yep, sorry - he's not on EASY and we're yet to track a whole day... I guess this makes it difficult for you to comment. I'm on holiday next week and i'd really like to try and get us on some sort of consistent routine, but i'm not sure we're prepared for the tears. Even though they come anyway at the minute just trying to get him to be calm and sleep at appropriate times.

All his sleeping / naps are with props, i.e. generally walked to sleep in the day in his bassinet or fed to sleep for bedtime or through the night. Until a couple of nights ago, I was usually able to settle him, but now he only settles for his mum and some food at night.

Could this mean he's not getting enough food in the day, so is making up for it at night? When he wakes at 5am ish, he's often fine to just lie there and play for what feels like 30-60 mins. Which makes me think he's had his fill throughout the night during his night feeds, and is now content when he's woken up.

I have no idea - but i'd like to get him onto a routine so it feels we actually have something to tinker with rather than just the completely reactive situation it is now.

[Buntybear]

At 4 months you are looking at an EASY of feeding every 4 hours so 7, 11, 3, 7. By extending the space between feeds it encourages the LO to get a bigger feed to keep them going rather than snacking.

Maybe jot down your feeds times and you nap times for today and let us know?

[tipofthetree]

Yep, i'll try to post something to actually give people something to comment on.

So, by feeding every 4 hours, are you kind of restricting their feeding in an effort to make them more efficient feeders during their actual feeds? My wife won't like withholding food until set times. Also, we've been trying to 'tank him up' in the evenings. Which doesn't seem to be working anyway...

[Shiv52]

Some BF babies find it hard to get to 4 hourly feeds but at this stage you would be looking at least 3 but most likely 3.5 hourly feeds.  It's not about with holding food to set times but about making sure you aren't developing a snacking habit which means babies get used to taking no small amount of milk to curb their hunger and then need/want to feed a very short time later only to take a very small amount again and so on.  Anything  under 3 hours at this age would have the potential to be causing an issue with milk intake and a snacking issue becoming apparent.  It also then leads to bigger prop issues as you tend to think they must be hungry.  I see in your first post mum feeds if it's been 2 hours. I'd look at increasing this even 20 minutes or so at a time until you are at 3.5 hours in the day and at least 4 hours At night to encourage taking fuller feeds.   

[tipofthetree]

Thank you. So do we just have to try to calm him when we're holding out milk at night for that 20 mins?

How does this look as potential schedule to aim for on day 1? I've tried to build in what things look like at the minute as well. Inevitably he'll wake up hungry in the night. Are we ok to try to withhold food, but still feed him after 3.5hrs-ish. He will inevitably feed to sleep here and mum holds him upright for 20 mins before she puts him down. I don't think there's any way we can get round him feeding to sleep in the night.

07:00 Wake Up
07:30 Eat
Activity
09:00 Sleep (1.5hrs)
10:30 Eat
Activity
12:00 Sleep (1.5hrs)
1:30 Eat
Activity
4:00 Sleep (1.5hrs)
5:30 Eat
Activity / bedtime routine
7-7:30pm Bedtime
10:30 - dreamfeed (we've never tried this)

[weaver]

On the 4 hr-ly feeds question - we did a 'big feed' (both sides) after WU and then a 'snack' or 'top up' (one side) a bit before sleep.  We wouldn't have managed 4 hours til nearly 6 mos.

That last nap doesn't need to be 1.5 hours.  It's a 'catnap' so just whatever gets LO from there to bedtime without getting OT or UT.  Maybe start with 40 mins and see what happens?

If night feeds are a big part of your issue, then I would definitely try introducing a DF and then try not to feed again until a decent period had elapsed - say at least 3 hours?  The idea with the DF is to get an extra feed in at a time that suits you, so time it for before you go to bed, 10/10.30 whatever's best for you.  Keep it very low key, low lights, no nappy changing unless really needed, create that relaxed and sleepy atmosphere.  Of course, on when you feed next, that's a judgement call for you and your family.  I would be content to get from where you are right now to a DF and one NF.  And you do need to offer an alternative source of comfort at that point - it might be easiest if Dad does it instead of Mam because of course LO knows that Dad has no milk

[tipofthetree]

Right, so, not particularly structured, but yesterday morning nap I tried PUPD, and after 25 mins of the worst crying I've ever heard him do and 10 PUPDs, he seemed to just give up and drift off with me shushing loudly and patting him on his chest. It was sad, but also felt successful. Rest of the day was just 'normal'  sleeping on walks because it was a nice day and fed to sleep at bed time.

Day 2, the same. PUPD for his first nap. Was just as hard as day 1. 35 mins of crying, then just gave up and fell asleep. And again, we've been out most of the day as it's been nice.

Is this pointless? Do we just do it for the naps we can (we've been out the house because it's nice, and because people are coming to view the flat as we're trying to sell), and hope this contributes to him learning to sleep on his own or MUST it be a concerted effort for every nap and bed time?

Sorry, still no timetable. But this morning he woke at 7, then we started PUPD at 9:30 and he fell asleep for 45 mins at 10:10.

[lauradj]

You're doing wonderfully!!  You cannot except a magical, instantaneous change after one round of PU/PD, that's unrealistic.  However, when you used it you have experienced success and that is a great stride forward.  Continue on.  It would be great to have your LO at home for every nap so you can set up a consistent WD/resettling routine but sometimes that is just not possible.
Good luck with the sell! 

[weaver]

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!
Please re-read some of this material - PU/PD is a method of last resort and should not be used where there is no EASY routine in place. You should not use it if you've tried nothing else first.  You need to start by getting the routine right (or approximately right at least, and then tweaking) and using sh-pat.  You are free, of course, to read through all this and decide that PU/PD is the best option for you at this point.
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd

[tipofthetree]

Why shouldn't you use PUPD unless you have an established EASY routine in place? These two posts seem to contradict each other. One says I'm doing great, the other says I'm doing it wrong / stop it.

[tipofthetree]

Day 3, morning nap and 3rd go at PUPD. My wife suggested I calm him more before putting him down after a pick up, i.e. Not the second be stopped crying, but give him a minute to settle and get drowsy, which he did, then put him down. Also, only did singing today and not loud shushing. Took just over 22 mins, only 3 PUPD and felt a lot less brutal.