Longer and confusing NW

[JennVanessa1083]

Hello!

I have a thread on the naps board around his naps but was hoping to get a perspective on the NW front last month. DS is now 9 months old. For awhile we were on a good 7:30-7:30 routine and we extended As to address EMW. Last week or so he's been waking 4 times a night. Part of it I believe is OT in the early part of night (wakings before 3 hours after BT) but he's also starting to wake for longer periods of time. He usually wakes up for a fed around 11-12 and 3-4ish (when BT was 7ish). He usually would go straight back to sleep. Now he just lays there wide awake or will start sitting up and looking around then start fussing- no crying usually. He's already mastered sitting up weeks ago. He is teething his top teeth which have notably been bothering him.

I guess my question is what's the NW about?

This is the routine from yesterday; our EASY is a bit of a mess bc of teething (he's been extra confusing on when he's tired and has been sleeping erratically):
NW 10:39, 1:40, 4:15, 6:58 am
Total 10.5

WU 8:21 am
E 8:30
A
E 9:45 (solids and BM)
A
S 11:48- 12:31 pm(A 3:27; self settle; cried a little during wind down. Probably teething pain bc kept biting on zippy)
E 12/33
S 12:41-1:46 pm
A
E 2:45
A
E 3:45 (solids and BM)
A
S 5:16-5:52 pm (A 3:30; while I was walking around got really drowsy then fell asleep in crib)
E 5:53
A
E 7:30 (solids)
A
BF:BT 8:58 (A 3:06; Miscalculated BT)

NW 11:55, 12:22, 3:54, 6:30

If the NW is only due to teething than I'm ok with that bc I'm already medicating so not much else I can do. But I'm wondering if it's a routine thing too.

I do appreciate it! I am working with the Naps board to help with the 2-1 transition. This forum has been so incredibly helpful to us, thank you!

[Bella89]

Hi Jenn,
I read through your posts and a few things stand out to me:)
I think these NW are because of teething and a little OT, but I think it will pass after developmental leap is over and you adjust a routine. I know laura suggested set naps and you tried that in the past.
If you don't feel like it's the right thing for you, you might wanna try something else.
You asked how people get their good routines... LO grow up fast and it's a skill to keep up with the changes:) Just to comfort you, my textbook DS is on 1 nap since he was 10,5 months and we're on the same routine for 3 months! I find that luxurious;)

I am not sure if I can help you set that first nap to be shorter than the second, because biologically seems like he preferred the first one (on the days he had a good long nap it was morning one). But we can try:)
For his morning solids, what do you serve? You BF to top up? I wonder if he was hungry and took a short break to eat. Fruit can give you that effect sometimes.

Teething can mess up a lot, but it's better to try to ignore it. Go back... Ignore the pain in terms of putting him down, but don't ignore sleepiness. Well, I never did and I found it better for DS. Teething is a resoucefull task, so a body needs rest:)

I think if you want to keep the first nap shorter, the A time should be shorter. You can try it, but this might bring EW back, so might not be doable:/ Sorry to disappoint you in that matter:/
The other thing is, even if the second nap is later in the day I was still offering BT at a reasonable hour. When I look at your day, if it's not teething or developmental leap it most likely that causing NWs.

You will probably start with 8am WU:
8 WU
8:10 BF
9:30 solids
10:30 nap 1 will be shorter ideally
11:30 BF
12:30 dinner
2:30 something between snack and light lunch, soup maybe?
3:... About 20 min after he is dome with eating till 5:30
7 start BTroutine. Bath, BF and zzzzzzzz:)

What do you think?

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Bella!

Thank you for responding!

Ok so first off wow to your LO having the same routine for 3 months! I hope I can get to that point!

In terms of solids; I do a mix of puree and finger foods so it depends on the day. I try to do either a mix of fruit and veggies sometimes with a type of grains and/ or protein. It could be hunger that wakes him up. Yesterday he seemed to have a semi normal day where he took pretty good naps (an hour or so each) and a much better night. Maybe it was a growth spurt? Do you suggest giving him a top up BM feed right after solids to make sure he's full?


I would like to try the first am nap shorter only bc he has struggled with EW for the last couple of weeks. If it doesn't work out I can go for a long am/short pm. I definitely agree that the later bedtime was a contributor to the OT wakings as he had that issue a couple of months ago.

Teething really wreaks havoc on a schedule but you are right in terms of trying to keep things consistent. I try to follow cues and sometimes it worked where he would fall asleep with a shorter Than usual A, sometimes his A time was longer (or so I think) despite showing sleepy signs earlier  Confusing...I know!

So I'm wondering if pulling back the first A to say 3 hours may give me a short UT nap? When I go too early he won't sleep so I'm nervous to do a 2.5 first A. If he's not tired enough, he will just play and look around etc then cry because he wants out of the crib or gets OT as a result. I'm also cautious about being too short where EMW happen again. I could do a slightly longer A for the pm nap so maybe something like:

WU/BF 7:30
A
E 8:30 (solids)
A
Nap 10:30-11:30 am
E 11:30
A
E 12:30 (lunch and maybe BM top up?)
A
Nap 2:45-4:45 (ideally; he has yet done a 2 hour nap)
E 4:45 pm
A
E 5:45 pm (solids)
A
BF/BT 8 pm

Does that sound ok? Do you think it's still too much A time given the info about my DS?

[Bella89]

So I'm wondering if pulling back the first A to say 3 hours may give me a short UT nap? When I go too early he won't sleep so I'm nervous to do a 2.5 first A. If he's not tired enough, he will just play and look around etc then cry because he wants out of the crib or gets OT as a result. I'm also cautious about being too short where EMW happen again. I could do a slightly longer A for the pm nap so maybe something like:

I think this is very important information and a key to everything. First A time in a day that's the longest is perfect! This is how everyone wants it, because a) it stops EW b)it helps when you transition to 1 nap later on (around 1yo). That's why I would not go back. I thought you preferred short morning nap because of family errands, but if not - your son seems like mine - loved morning nap

Your meals look good. If you add grains to fruit he won't be hungry. I found pureed apple and banana causing waking up out of hunger, so whenever I gave DS only fruit I tried to BF 1h after solids/at least 30 min before sleep. Also, if he can do almost 4 hours A time in the morning, I would serve solids 1.5h after BF because 1)DS will eat more and without an issue 2) it's less likely to cause hunger wakings.
Just to give you a perspective, at 13 mo DS eats like this:
7 solids with cow's milk in a cup
9:30 light snack - fruit, yougurt
12 lunch rather light
3:30 supper
6:00 dinner
7:00 cup of cow's milk - I decided to keep that one separate as he likes it
This shows that LO can take longer breaks between feeds, so you can start stretching a little - but that's if you want to keep BF as a separate meal.

WU/BF 7:30
A
E 8:30 (solids)
A
Nap 10:30-11:30 am
E 11:30
A
E 12:30 (lunch and maybe BM top up?)
A
Nap 2:45-4:45 (ideally; he has yet done a 2 hour nap)
E 4:45 pm
A
E 5:45 pm (solids)
A
BF/BT 8 pm

I think this looks good, but if he wakes closer to 7, I would start routine closer to 7pm rather than 8. He will have shorter day, so it will help with OT for a while.

You seem to know your son really well:) Congrats on that! I don't think I had an idea about my DS's routine like you do ;]
When you think about it, you know exactly how it should look like. It's just getting there, isn't it !

[Shiv52]

Hey there!!

What are you doing during NWs?  Are you leaving him to resettle?  I know ages ago we talked about prop issues and I am still wondering if it is an issue. I noticed in your first post you fed him in the middle of his nap?  And the next one you walked him until drowsy? 

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Average A times for 9 month olds are 3.5-4 hours. So I'd be wary of shortening his First A time too much. To me those NWs could well be UT. Neither of mine would have coped with the routine you posted as an example. There is no way they would have been ready for a nap after 3 hours A time. And no way I'd have gotten them to bed with 3hr 15 A time after a 2 hour nap. Even after a 1.5 nap. They either have resisted bedtime or woke shortly after as they'd have thought they were having a CN.

Just another perspective.  I've followed your other thread and just wonder are you pitching the A times too short.

[JennVanessa1083]

ha! It's the story of my life Bella! I have an idea what DS likes but I'm not quite there in getting a solid routine. It's either too much A or not enough A 

I agree in terms of making sure he's well fed before the nap. Thankfully after those two days, he hasn't woken up to eat so maybe it was a growth spurt or who knows. I generally feed 1-1.5 hr after a BF. My goal is to wean around a year so I'm going to start taking steps towards that as well.

I do prefer the short nap in the am and longer in the pm due to errands and classes. It's just easier for our family. But of course if DS prefers the other way I may have to tweak it.

Today he is playing catch up as yesterday was a crazy day with family and he had a horrible night as a result of horrible naps. Looks like DS is sensitive to OT UT and all haha!

Hi Shiv!!!! Nice to hear from you again

Funny I always though even a couple of months ago that my DS was similar to your LOs.
I do know DS doesn't do well with such a long A unless he has a monster nap. Unfortunately I have yet to see a 2 hour nap. The most he's ever done is 1.75 on rare occasions. I agree with you that I don't want EMW!! We struggled with that for awhile, pulled out of it, and looks like NW are back sprinkled with early wakings that I just end up nursing for. Some are playful, some he fusses. I let him sort it out and most of the time he will just go back to sleep. Other times if it's been awhile I'll feed.

Lately he's been teething so his wake times seem shorter than they were before BUT I'm getting NW and EMW which I feel like it's bc of short wake times.

This is what is going on so far today: (he's probably tired as he had 3 long NW last night and this morning and had crappy naps yesterday)

WU 9 am (this will be moved up again to 7:30)
NAP 1 11:32-12:56 pm (A 2:31; this one is weird bc he usually doesn't sleep at this time but he kept trying to put himself to sleep in the living room and was acting very tired; hoping this won't come back to haunt me tonight)
Nap 2 4:05- (woke up at 28 minutes?! Resettled and still sleeping)

Before all this mess we were doing:

WU 7
A 3.5
Nap 1 10:30-11:30/noon (usually an hour and 15)
A 3.5
Nap 2 3/3:30-4:30/5 (again usually about 1:10 or 1:15)
A 3.15
BT 7:45-8:15 pm (depending on last nap)

I'm all around confused to be honest. He always was longer on the A times since I started an EASY with him at around 3.5 months but in the week and a half he's cut down his A times. Not sure if it's because the teething, NW making him more tired, or he tires out faster bc he is much more mobile.

Shiv- what would you suggest since you mentioned NW being UT rather than OT? Maybe I'm in a vicious UT/OT loop in this transition?

Thank you ladies. I honestly am so thankful for all the insight. It definitely helps to have other perspectives!

[JennVanessa1083]

So I do think it's a case of UT. Yesterday he did shorter A times with 1-1.5 hour naps:

WU 9 (working on getting it earlier due to daylight savings time)
Nap 11:30-1 pm (A 2.5; surprised he even was tired here)
Nap 4:10-5:45 pm (A 3:10)
BT 9:10 pm (~3.5)

NW 1am, 5-5:40 (wide awake after feed), 7:15-7:45 (playful again but eventually drifted; not sure bc I fell asleep right away after nursing him)

These long playful wake ups are throwing us off. I woke him up at 8:45 since I overslept myself.

So now I'm wondering where to even begin 

So I go back to what I was doing beforehand? 3.5 A times with a 3-3.25 A to bed?

[Bella89]

Jenn you got this! I feel like you know what you're doing because you know him so well.
When you think about it, his day was really good one. Good naps and everything.

So I go back to what I was doing beforehand? 3.5 A times with a 3-3.25 A to bed?

In my opinion it's not how long it is since his nap (if it's at least 1.5h) but what time it is. You don't want to put him down too late, because he will have a looong day

[JennVanessa1083]

Thanks Bella!!

Very encouraging words. I just feel like DS has been so confusing lately that it's making me doubt what I am doing Yk? True...good naps which is great but then long NW in the early morning hours  Is it too much to ask for good naps and good solid nights? Lol

Today I did a 3.5 A before the am nap and got a 31 minute nap  which I'm pretty sure indicates OT. Is it because he has been doing shorter A times and is no longer used to this one? I used to get hour naps on that A 

For the pm I shot for around 3:15ish since I helped resettle the am and he slept for another 45 minutes or so. Maybe I should have just gotten him up since I'm ultimately aiming for a short am nap?

Aarrrrrrrtgh teething!!!!!!

[Bella89]

It changes quickly with LOs, but I think the key is to stick to 1 routine for a few days and see what results it gives. Only then it gives you solid results.

Keep me posted!

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Bella!

Ok so thankfully the long EMW seem to have gotten better with stretching the first A out again and him not taking monster naps all day long. He's still teething which is progressively getting worse. Last night he woke up a couple of times (twice crying hard). Top teeth seem to be doing a number on him.

This is the routine I started doing yesterday and it seems to be doing ok. I'll be sticking to it for another two days.  Still some tweaking and experimenting going on over here. I'm stil getting 3 consistent NW where he wants to nurse but the breastfeeding board assured me that teething could very well be the culprit and that I should wean after they come. So that's the plan.

WU 8:15 (it will be earlier to ideally 7-7:30 like before)
A 3.25
S 11:30-12:15 pm
A 3.25
S 3:30-5 pm (hopefully 2 hours at some point)
A 3.25-3.5
BT 8:15-8:30 pm

Yesterday the first nap was about 40 minutes and the second he woke up at 1 hr then slept for another 15 minutes. If he doesn't lengthen the pm nap should I try for a 3.5 A after tha am nap or shorten the am nap to 30 minutes?

Thank you!

[Bella89]

If he has short morning nap, I wonder if it would help to actually shorten the second A time to 3.10 min? Is he tired earlier than 3.25?

[JennVanessa1083]

Ok...so do you think the pm nap was OT?

It's honestly hard to tell if he's tired beforehand but I would say that it does. I could try to aim for 3:10 rather than 3.25 to see if he gets a full pm nap after a 30-45 minute am nap. I guess I'm cautious since I don't want another UT nap...

[Bella89]

I think you're on a good track. Now it's all about being consistent for a while. Changes every day never give a long term result:/

[JennVanessa1083]

I agree; I'm sticking to it for a few days and see if I need tweaking. Teething is definitely wreaking havoc. Today he woke up at 12 minutes during his am nap but then the Tylenol kicked in and he slept for 1.5 hours. So I'm also bearing in mind that teething will make it hard to decifer what A times are really appropriate.

I'll keep you posted