Longer and confusing NW

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi so quick update in real time:

Wu 7:27
Nap 1 11:04-12:27 pm (A3:37; woke up at 35 crying hard and when I went to pick him up he fell asleep immediately!)

He had wakings every 3 hours last night but no extended wakings. Maybe I should shorten first A tomorrow to 3.25 to get a shorter nap? Maybe he is OT from the drastic A time increases?

I also don't know how to proceed with the day since I expected a short UT am nap; instead I got this 

[trimbler]

Ok so you can cap the morning nap, you don't have to wait to see whether it will naturally be shorter. I used an A of 3h before the first nap, but others have done 3.5h - depends on when you think he'll be able to get down for it consistently? Perhaps something like this:

WU 7:30
Nap 10:30-11 (wake him)
Nap 2-3:30/4
BT 8:30

But I'm sorry I probably haven't quite followed through all your posts thoroughly enough, he may prefer his longest A before the second nap, for example, but you'll have a much better feel for that than I do right now I just gave roughly what my DS used to do, as an example.

[JennVanessa1083]

HI Timbler!

I'm not sure if he does well on long A times before bed. I know that when he does a 1.5 pm nap he can do a 3.5 A. He's never done a two hour nap so not sure but I am sure he may be able to do a 4 hour A after a monster nap.

I think I can try a first A of 3:15 and cap it but not sure after that. I never did such a short am nap intentionally and never got the second A right after an unintentional short A nap.  I could keep it at 3.5 A then do an A of 3 hours since I know he will be tired from waking him.

Something like:

WU 7:30
S 11-11:30 (3.5)
S 2:30-4/4:30 (3 hrs)
BT 8:30 pm (4 hrs)

 Or

WU 7:30 am
S 11-11:30 am (3.5)
S 2:45-4:15/4:45 pm (3.25)
BT 8-8:30 (3.75)


Is that enough A for DS? I clearly am not an expert at this present moment since there are so many factors with his sleep and I seem to not be hitting the right balance. It's either he's UT or OT so I may not really understand DS in the sleep department lol My fear is the last A being so long since In the past when I tried set naps with the longest A before bed I had OT wakings.

[JennVanessa1083]

I wanted to give an update on yesterday to hopefully shed more light on A times for DS:

WU 7:27 Am
S 11:04- 12:27 pm (A 3:37; drowsy in my arms then put down; woke up at 35 crying fell asleep in my arms)
S 4:07-5:12 pm (A 3:40; in my arms then put down)
BT 8:54 pm (A 3:44; bday celebration ran later)

NW 12:48 am crying hard but resettled quickly without feed), 5 am (fed)

Woke up after only a 10 hour night at 7 am 

We were out this morning and I figured ok he can take his short nap in the stroller but he was WIDE awake but not wired, and finally fell asleep at 4 hrs A. Not sure if it's bc he had a better night or maybe he was already OT 

I didn't cap naps yesterday which maybe I should have. But I feel as though this may help construct a new EASY with short am/ long pm naps.

Thank you again!!

[trimbler]

Mine never slept out, except when tiny in the sling with all visual stimulation blocked out Do you think a UT morning nap would work better at home?

Sorry, I'd forgotten how old your LO was, just checked and thinking I probably wouldn't cap so much just yet. Kind of trying to pluck something out of the dark but maybe someone else will chime in with a better suggestion or you'll try something else that will work better. But you need somewhere to start from, so...

7:30 up
11-12 nap 1
3:30-5 nap 2
8:30 BT

That might be a bit more sleep than he needs, from what you've said previously? I think that yesterday sounded a bit OT perhaps, with that easily settled crying NW and short night - you said BT was a bit later than usual? With DS, during the 2-1 we'd often end up with 10.5h nights, but when they got shorter than that we'd cut more off the first nap and pull the second nap earlier to shorten the day, if that makes sense? So if that routine doesn't give enough A you could stretch the second or third A time or if that's not enough, then cap the first nap to 45mins perhaps, or you may not even need to cap it by that much (my DS was sensitive to 5min caps!), but that should help you to get more A into the daytime without making the night too short/wakeful. Sorry rambling, hope something makes sense out of that

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Timbler!

Thanks for responding. I think that's a good start especially since the A times and nap lengths were very similar with the exception to the longer A before BT. It resulted in a better night so I think I can try this for a couple of days and see what I get 

[trimbler]

Great Just try to stick to it for a few days as you say and log what happens, then we should get a better idea of how we can tweak

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes for sure! I do wonder is a 28 minute nap OT?

The weekend was a little crazy so A times were not exactly where they needed to be and bedtime was a mess. Yesterday and today I continued with the 3.5 first A and got OT naps. I resettled then they ended up being 1:15 hrs long. Today for my pm nap I got a 28 minute one. I tried putting him down at 3.5 A and he was playing then cried when I tried soothing him. Finally at 3.75 A he SS to sleep.

I'm assuming he's really OT from the weekend or this it UT bc his morning nap went over an hr? He was crying when he woke up but took 20 minutes and a feed to settle to sleep again. Maybe hunger since he wasn't fond of lunch today.

[trimbler]

Hmm it's hard to say. You could always pull back on that first A, since you want the am nap to be a bit UT, ideally, rather than OT. That 28min nap could have been OT, especially since he resettled relatively easily. I suspect he may just be a bit OT from the weekend. Where do you think, in the day, he's most likely to be able to catch up with OT? Some LOs do really well with EBT for that; others don't tack on and do better with a longer nap somewhere - whilst others might find a long nap interferes with night sleep and exacerbates the OT cycle. Do you have a feel for how yours catches up best? Some lie in, I think yours does? But just keep an eye not to let him lie in too long...

[JennVanessa1083]

I could try that today in terms of pulling back the first A a tad. Last night was pretty good. He went down close to 9 which was due to a strange nap day. Yesterday went like this:

NW 8:12-8:56 pm (OT and wired after getting home), 1:11, 4:34 am 
Total 11 hrs 
WU 7:30 am
S 10:58-12:10 pm (A 3:28; SS; woke up at 29)
S 3:57-4:25 pm (A 3:47; acres tired around 3A laying down in his play area but fought sleep when I tried around 3:30 A. Playing and active. Cried when trying to sooth him to sleep until he calmed down close to 3.75A and SS; woke up at 28 minutes)
S 4:50-5:33 pm (after nurses)
BT 8:53 (A 3:20)

NW 11:30 (woke up screaming and crying), 5am, 6:50-7am (held him to sleep since he had less than a 10 hour night)

I notice either he will lie in or nap slightly longer either for the am or pm nap depending on the day. I can count on my hand how many times he actually did a EBT successfully but then again it has been awhile and as with all babies, they change on us lol If it's a bad nap day I have done earlier BT and as long as there was enough A he does pretty well.

[JennVanessa1083]

I'm sorry I'm just really confused. He has been fighting sleep all day despite me trying earlier then he wakes up after 25-35 minutes.  This is a breakdown of yesterday and today:

I also let him sleep in bc of the weekend.

WU 7:59 am
S 11:21- 1:04 pm (A 3:23; fought sleep; got him drowsy in my arms then PD then he SS; woke up at 34 minutes fussy; took 5 minutes to resettle but was fighting it; woke up again very fussy at 1:03 but went straight back to sleep)
S 4:36- 5:28 pm (A 3:32; got him drowsy in my arms bc he was wide awake then PD; woke up at 25 minutes; fought resettling)
BT 9:01 pm (A 3:33; crying and screaming fighting sleep. Would not go down beforehand)

NW 11:10, 3:30 then diaper leak at 7 am; dozed off (with a lot of coercion) from 7:45-8:20 which helped him get 11 hrs. I put him down at an A of 3:20. He went down without a peep then wakes up 35 minutes later!

I'm all types of baffled! Letting him catch up on sleep seems like its backfiring. He's consistently doing 10 hr nights with 2NW. He used to sleep in but now won't unless I really try hard. Are 35 minute naps UT?

[trimbler]

They can be UT, but LOs won't tend to resettle quickly when UT. It may be that you'll have to push a bit so as to be able to resettle an OT nap and consolidate  daytime sleep to one long nap (with or without resettling) and a CN. If he struggles to settle for his morning nap at less than 3.5h then you could just go for 3.5h? I know it's tricky if you want him to nap for, say, 45mins and he goes and does 30min. Then you could choose to either resettle for another 15mins, or just get him up and move the pm nap a little earlier - but remember, the idea of capping the morning nap is to get a nice long pm nap. Iiwm, I'd probably just get him up and hope that he makes up for it with a long nap later, since I'm getting the feeling he might need a bit more pushing. Then again, if you'd rather go back to pushing out the first A instead, then by all means do that - but I'd personally try to avoid giving him a shorter first A and then letting him do a long first nap too (resettled). [However, I know some LOs have found that works for them...they're all different of course!] I guess I just want to encourage you to decide on something and stick with it a while so that you can see where it might be working and where it's not. So... Is it the short UT first nap you want to try now, or the long first A with long nap? You decide - but we either need to push him for the first nap and resettle where necessary, or make sure he doesn't sleep more than an hour (say) for his first nap and push his second A - I think

[JennVanessa1083]

I definitely appreciate the support! He's a head scratcher when it comes to naps etc. He is going through a developmental leap and is cutting his top teeth so it may be still affecting naps and EMW.

I would like enforce a short am/long pm as my hope is that it will discourage EMW . So not sure if I should keep it at 3.5 and just cap it at an hour at most? Today I woke him up after an hour (I resettled at 35). I'm going to try a 3.5 A before the pm nap and see how it goes.

So to clarify if you were me you wouldn't resettle even if it's a 30 minute am nap and not do a shorter A in the am correct?

[trimbler]

Haha now you're putting me on the spot well... Oh it's hard to say, I'm sorry! You've done what you've done for today, see how it goes and you may want to try the same again tomorrow. Just try the same for a few days and see what happens, we can work from there

[JennVanessa1083]

Haha! Yes I sure did 

Ok I will see how the pm nap goes at a 3.5 A then try it for a few days  . I should know in about 3-4 days correct?