Author Topic: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!  (Read 5128 times)

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Offline Graysor

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Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« on: March 14, 2016, 10:10:48 am »
I am completely hopeless at spotting tired sleepy cues from my 13.5 week old dd. What should I be looking for? I know yawns are a late sign, but what else is there? I never seem to see the avoiding eye contact and staring into space. But maybe I'm just not paying enough attention? Any tips? Anything else I'm missing?

At the moment I try to make sure we start going down for a nap after about an hour and fifteen minutes awake time. The problem is that as soon as I start doing the nap routine she starts crying (full on wailing, rigid arms and legs etc). And then seems to be inconsolable for a good 30 mins or so.

Is this because she is overtired? How can I stop her crying and get her calm enough to put down for her nap? Holding, rocking, swaying, singing, shushing all seem to have no effect. She won't have a dummy, despite lots of trying.

Help!

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 10:30:51 am »
Hello again :)

It sounds to me like she is a bit UT (under tired) rather than OT (over tired).  Resisting nap and being quite loud about it can be a sign of UT, looking at your A time it could be a little short for her now.
This is a really handy link, remember it's just a guide, a place to start, as time goes on you will learn if your LO prefers a longer than average or shorter than average A time or slightly different throughout the day. Don't worry these things take time to learn as you get to know her more :)
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

That A time, 1hr 15 mins, is this when you begin wind down? So you are aiming to get her to sleep for around at 1hr 35 total A time?
I would suggest putting her down for a nap 10-15 mins later, so a total A time of 1hr 45 including the WD time.  Here we always count A time from eyes open baby awake to eyes shut baby asleep. Wind down, eating, nappy change etc are all part of that A time.
It's also worth noting, some LOs take the full 20 mins to fall to sleep (in the very early days I could time mine to the minute!) but as they grow into their character a bit some like the long WD and some don't.  Mine as it turned out like a very short WD so if I tried a 20 mins WD he would kick off shouting and screaming trying to tell me he had not finished playing yet.  If I took him up later and gave a very short WD (nappy change, 3 mins song, into cot, leave) he went to sleep right away. Long or short WD the A time can be the same the only difference is when you begin the process of winding down, which for some LOs winds them up because they are not happy.

How did you do since you last thread? Did you feel you made any progress with getting her down in her cot to sleep?


Offline Graysor

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 10:55:32 am »
Hi creations,  thanks for your response.  That's interesting you think maybe UT. I've been so worried about OT I hadn't really considered that!

The hour 15 mins awake time excludes the wd time trying to get her down. So after all the crying it's usually 1 hr 45 to 2 hrs total awake before she's asleep again. 

We are having more success with napping in her crib now, which is great.  But I have to hold her till she's in a deep sleep before transferring to the crib. And most of this time she is crying.  I find it hard to shush pat when holding her,  as she's so wriggly I need both hands to hold her securely, making the patting part impossible! 

I'm keen to start putting her down sleepy but awake, but she seems to go from wide awake angry crying to fast asleep in my arms so fast that I miss the window. But putting her down  while she's still crying is hopeless. 


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 19:00:37 pm »
OK, the A time is longer than I thought so actually it's a decent time.  Have you tried starting the WD a bit later though?  If she is ending up awake for up to 2hrs anyway it might be worth a try to begin WD at 1hr 45 when she might be more ready for sleep.  Some times if a LO is UT for a nap they fuss about it so much they end up crying through the period where they might have gone to sleep if you'd started the process later. Hope that makes sense.

Do you swaddle her?  Might help with the wiggling.

Has she ever fallen to sleep on her own without you holding her?

Does she begin crying on the way to her bedroom or when you go in there or after you have started the shush/pat?

Once she is asleep how long is she sleeping for?  If they are short naps she might well be getting OT as the day progresses due to not having a restorative nap (1.5-2hr).



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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 20:23:39 pm »
Thanks creations, lots to think about there.

I think it's a good suggestion to start the wd later. You're right that she is probably fussing so much and working herself up so she can't get to sleep. I will try waiting to start wd after about an hour and a half or an hour 45 and see if that helps.

To answer your questions:

I've never tried swaddling her, is she too old to start now? (Nearly 14 weeks).

I don't think she's ever fallen asleep independently. It's always been on me or in the sling. I think we've managed once or twice to shush pat her to sleep in her crib from when drowsy. But literally only once or twice.

She sometimes starts crying once we're in the bedroom, but often she's crying before, and I usually assume at this point that she's OT and therefore need to get on with the WD. 

she only manages short naps, and tends to wake after one sleep cycle (35-45 mins). Unless she's in the sling, when she will sometimes go for 1.5 hours.  So you're right that she is probably OT by the end of the day. I've tried to resettle with shush  pat when she starts to stir after 30-35 mins ish, but she just cries and gets increasingly upset.

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2016, 19:06:12 pm »
If you are not already recording your EAS times could you begin now so we can have a look at how the day pans out?  Make short notes about mood, if you try to resettle etc by the times.

So, even if you hold, rock, shush/pat etc she still isn't going to sleep?
Are there any sings of illness? or reflux?


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2016, 19:52:48 pm »
Thanks for your ongoing support and input.

I've been diligently recording times for weeks now! This is yesterday,  which is fairly typical. 

7.15 - 7.30 E
7.30 - 9.10 A
9.10 - 9.40 S ( trying to put her down from 8.45, inconsolable crying. Eventually fell asleep in arms and transferred to crib)
9.40 - 10 A  (trying to resettle, inconsolable crying from 9.50. Abandoned after 20 mins)
10 - 10.15 E
10.15 - 11.30 A
11.30 - 12 S ( in sling on way to activity  )
12 - 12.45 A
12.45 - 1 E
1 - 1.40 A
1.40 - 3 S ( in sling on way home)
3 - 3.20 A
3.20 - 3.30 E
3.30 - 4.55 A
4.55 - 5.20 S (  started to put her down at 4.20, crying till asleep in arms )
5.20 - 5.35 A  (crying,  trying to resettle )
5.35 - 5.45 E
5.45 - 6.45 A
6.45 - 7 E  (bedtime )
7 - 7.15 A ( crying )
7.15  - 2 S ( fell asleep in arms)
2 - 2.30 E
2.30 - 5.15 S ( straight to sleep after feed)
5.15 - 5.45 E
5.45 - 7 S (straight to sleep after feed )

No signs of illness or reflux as far as I can tell. Very rarely brings anything up, is happy lying on her back under her play gym, sleeps well in her crib at night  etc.

Any thoughts? 

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 21:57:49 pm »
Oh dear :(  She's just not happy is she?

OK, looks like you need to crack on with sleep training so that she becomes more accustomed to the routine and more confident to go to sleep, stay asleep and transition from one sleep cycle to another.
What do you think of starting out with nap 1.  Using the W2S (wake to sleep) method to help her sleep through the transition and if she wakes continue to attempt to resettle for longer?  The idea is that she learns it is sleep time. You keep her in the bedroom in the dark/dim light 'telling' her to sleep until nap time is over. This means either a successful W2S to lengthen to nap or if that fails resettling for up to 45 mins.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Have a look at naps option 1

What do you think?


Offline Graysor

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 08:39:30 am »
I know, she is so angry and upset around nap times, and it's really getting me down. She is so happy and contended the rest of the time that it seems even worse to me when she gets distressed about naps   :(

This morning was a little better. She woke up early so we've had to go down early for her morning nap. She was getting cranky and started crying after about an hour and a half awake so I assumed she was tired and took her upstairs and did the nap time wd routine. She was crying even on the way upstairs, but then fell asleep in my arms after only 10 mins and transferred easily to the crib. Not sure how long it will last, but I will try wake to sleep and see if that helps her transition.

It's so hard when she still doesn't seem to be calmed by the shush pat, even though I've been consistent with it at bedtimes, and at least one nap every day (always the first, and sometimes others too) for about 4 weeks now. Is there anything else I could be doing to help calm soothe her when she is really distressed? I feel like I'm all out of ideas!

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 13:58:29 pm »
Have you done the Know your baby quiz?  I wonder if she is just a grumpy baby and this crying before naps i s just part of her character?  Really I am racking my brains for other reasons for her crying when you have been running a consistent routine, with suitable A times, and it's not even like you are trying to break a prop habit which I'd expect crying with, she is crying even in arms.

Do you ever go into her room when it is not sleep time?  For instance taking her in whilst you put laundry away or vacuum or tidy up etc? How does she respond to going upstairs and into her room when it is not nap time?

For now honey I just want to reassure you that you are doing everything you can, don't take it personally that she's crying, she clearly has a lot to tell you about!! Stay calm throughout (some people find ear plugs help - you can still hear your baby but it can take the edge off and help you stay calm), respond to her crying by doing as you are, holding, shush/pat or rocking etc.  And be kind to yourself, this is not your 'fault' and you are doing really well.

One thing you might try - take her upstairs earlier than nap time (so she is definitely not OT or about to cry) and see if she remains calm. If she remains relatively content put her down in her cot, say 'sleepy time call if you need me', and leave the room.  If/when she cries go back in and pick up, do your usual to sooth her.  I  know I am slightly contradicting my previous advice to try the nap a touch later, but I'd like to see how she responds with almost no WD, just upstairs, in the room, super fast cuddle and into bed.

Is she eating ok?
Is the temperature much different between one room and another (ie colder in her bedroom?)


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 16:31:25 pm »
Thanks again creations. I've done the quiz and she comes out as split equally between angel, textbook and grumpy. That seems about right to me, as apart from the napping she is generally a very happy and easy little thing.

We don't go up to the bedroom much during the day except for nap and bedtime. So maybe should start doing that more so she is familiar and happy going there.

I'll have a go at going up super early and seeing if she'll go into her crib contently. I guess it's worth a go!

She feeds well, and is climbing the percentiles for her weight. And no noticeable temperature differences I don't think.

Onwards and upwards I guess.

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2016, 17:54:13 pm »
OK I would try going into the bedroom quite early in the A time with the sole purpose of NOT sleeping but tidying, playing, just sitting and having a chat, looking around the room together describing things etc.  Part of this could possibly be that she doesn't feel familiar or comfortable in that room so make it clear to her, we are not going to sleep we are going for a look around.  Unfold and refold some clothes if you have to, just something to be in the room for a while, if she is relatively happy put her down somewhere safe (in her cot) and tell her you just need to go to the toilet or nip into the other room for something and you'll be back. Pop out, and return, see how she is.  Finish the play time in there in enough time to leave the room do something else for a while and then return for nap wind down.
Worth a try.


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 22:20:06 pm »
So this morning's nap was worse than ever, despite us spending a bit of time in the  bedroom in the morning. 

After 1.5 hours  A time she was cranky and starting to cry so I have to assume this is her tired signal and that I'm missing her earlier cues.  We went up to the bedroom and did a quick wd of shutting the curtains and singing the bedtime song.  She started crying as soon as I started to put her down in her crib. So there is no opportunity for me to leave her there when she's quiet. She then carried on crying for 30 mins before falling asleep in my arms.  I went in to do w2s  but she woke up and cried after 30 mins asleep. Wouldn't resettle in the crib so I held her.  45 mins and 3 failed put down attempts later we abandoned. 

I couldn't face any more nap time battles today and just had her in the sling most of the day, where she easily and happily napped for 1.5 hours at lunchtime and another hour in the afternoon. 

To be honest I don't think the baby whisperer method is working for us. I feel like I've gone from having a baby who hardly ever cries to one who cries for ages before,  during and after all her naps. She seems to be going for less and less time asleep in her crib, barely managing 30 mins now. And I seem to have created a prop where she only falls asleep being held, and created a negative association with the bedroom  (not just her crib).

Thanks for all your input creations, but i think I'm going to have to leave it for now as I can't cope with the hours of crying anymore. 

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2016, 19:05:01 pm »
Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time of it xx

I feel like I've gone from having a baby who hardly ever cries
When she hardly ever cried how was she sleeping? In her cot or on you?

I can understand that you want to stop for now. We always say parents need to be ready for sleep training, it is time when you are ready.  I only want to say, gently, that if you have her in arms or in a sling for every nap she will likely be happy and sleep well, but one day she will be pretty heavy and that's when it often gets to parents and often when 'breaking point' is reached - sore arms, sore back, no Y time, it becomes too much to hold/walk/rock/sling for every nap and something has to change.  My advice would be to begin sleep training before it gets to that point but as I say, you are ready when you are ready.

We will be here x


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2016, 19:30:04 pm »
My phone's about to die but I will be back if you still need help. She sounds like a combination of my boys, so I have a few ideas. Let me know! It's fine to take a break, it really is.
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2016, 10:01:54 am »
Hi creations

Yes, the hardly ever crying was when I was carrying her in a sling a lot of the time, and for all her naps. I took on board the "fourth trimester" theory, and it obviously worked really well for us. But we're well passed that now (nearly 15 weeks).

Having said I was going to give it a rest, I actually had a free day at home yesterday so we persevered. I hear what you're saying about not waiting till breaking point!

First nap was the best ever! We went upstairs after 1.5 hours A time. And I managed to put her down in the crib awake but calm (feels like an achievement in itself!). After about 15 mins shush pat she fell asleep. I went back after 25 mins to do w2s. She woke crying and couldn't be soothed in the crib, but fell asleep in my arms and went back down for another hour.

After that I really thought I was winning, but the rest of the day was a bit of a disaster.

She was getting grouchy after only 1 hour A time, so we went for a nap at about 1 hour 15. She was crying hard so I couldn't put her down awake, and she fell asleep after about 15 mins crying in arms. I went in to do w2s again, but she woke after 30 mins and was inconsolable. I tried to resettle for 45 mins, including 3 failed put down attempts.

The afternoon nap followed the same pattern, and we resorted to the sling for the evening cat nap.

MJ&N - I'd be really interested to hear your experiences, and if you have any tips or coping strategies if you think you had similar. I'm definitely all out of ideas!

I think that on top of all this we have now hit the 4 month sleep regression. The last 2 nights she has gone from one or two NWs when she'd have a quick feed and drop straight off again, to wake ups every hour or so, won't settle after a feed, waking with a jolt after 30 mins as she can't transition into deep sleep. Argh!

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2016, 17:00:35 pm »
First nap was the best ever! We went upstairs after 1.5 hours A time. And I managed to put her down in the crib awake but calm (feels like an achievement in itself!). After about 15 mins shush pat she fell asleep.
This really is a big achievement. Sleep training is a process, I'm afraid shush/pat is not a magical method which just 'works', but it is a method whereby she knows you are there with her, supporting her whilst you put changes in place.  It's possible to begin with just one nap per day and sling nap the others. When she is in the habit of going down into her cot for that one nap you can then work on the second nap.
Waking mid nap is normal when a LO is not yet able to self settle, she is so used to transitioning in the sling with your closeness and movement, all that changes when the expectation is to sleep in her cot.

I know it's hard work.  My DS was sleep trained very gradually when he was tiny and would happily go down in his bed to self settle and nod off alone at just a couple of months old but that doesn't mean we haven't had tricky phases, we have had extremely tricky phases when he's needed lots and lots of comfort and holding etc etc... and I've experienced the bad back, RSI in my wrist and elbow from holding etc etc.  Hugs, I know it's really hard going to hear your LO cry and even with sleep training mine very early there were still times when he was older I felt like I was approaching breaking point, which really is why I am a big believer in moving on with sleep training when they are small enough to pick up and hold when needed.  This really is the BW ethos too, to respect baby through support but to help yourself by tackling sleep before you are totally out of energy.

There is always support here x


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2016, 17:49:38 pm »
That nap sounds like real progress!

My boys are very different but have elements of what you're describing in them.

DS1 cried before every sleep for ages and it was so stressful, I hated it. We had a rocking chair so that was the prop I was willing to keep. I held him, sang to him and rocked.... A lot!

I've since found an article suggesting that some babies actually need to cry before sleep, to release tension) and that the best thing to do for them is just to hold them and minimise any stimulation whilst they are trying to get to sleep. I wonder now whether I did too much.

My little guy is one of those babies who gets more tense with crying, so I'm aiming for him to cry (really cry, not grumble) as little as possible. Like you we've done a lot of sling naps, and the great thing about them is that I can work out his A time from when he chooses to go to sleep in the sling.

We're working on one, maybe two crib naps a day, with the others in arms/sling/car/fed to sleep. I've felt that getting a routine is most important to start with. We do the same wind down for all crib naps and then I pat him gently. Most times he goes off now but it's taken a while to get there, but if he gets upset I pick him up. There's always another nap to try on.

I've gone from having to pat through the whole nap to just patting him to sleep and then keeping a hand on him. One day I will be able to reduce this input, but we're not there yet. He always wakes at 40 minutes, earlier if I accidentally move, and I think that this again is a time thing.

It's a long slow road, but with his brother we had self settling for two long naps a day around six months, and that's where I'm hoping to be with this guy.

Hth!
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2016, 16:05:13 pm »
Thanks Creations and MJ&N for your kind words and support.

That's an interesting theory about some babies needing to cry before going to sleep. Maybe my dd is like that (although not when she's in the sling!).

MJ - what do you do to try and minimise the crying your little one does? My dd works herself up into such a fury that I find it impossible to calm her down.

We have been continuing with one or two naps a day in the crib. Not much progress. She still cries and cries while being held, and eventually falls asleep in my arms. She then wakes up exactly 35 mins after eventually going down, and I haven't had any more success with w2s or resettling once she's woken.

Any ideas on how best to try and resettle her? When she wakes she starts crying hard immediately (presumably because she's still tired, and because she's confused about waking up somewhere different to where she fell asleep) and shush pat in the crib has no soothing effect. I pick her up but that doesn't make any difference to the crying. She seems to hate being held up over my shoulder, and I usually have to hold her tiger in the tree style to get her to calm down eventually. Unfortunately that makes it practically impossible to shush pat, or to easily transfer her to her crib once she does eventually drop off.

I'm also a bit stuck with what to do with her A time as she's having such short naps. For example if she wakes 35 mins after going to sleep, I then need to start the next nap really early to stop her getting OT. should I be adding in extra naps to make up for this?


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2016, 18:23:31 pm »
I would just go for one crib nap a day at present, and keep the others in the sling. Hopefully she'll catch herself up that way.

We've had horrendously short naps today but a good long night beforehand. So I've gone for bedtime roughly half an hour early, and hoped!

I don't leave him crying in the crib at all. I give him a chance to see if it's a grumble or a full on cry, and if it's the latter I pick him up and jiggle him or feed him to sleep. There's always another nap to try on and I want him to have positive associations with the crib. I also put him down to play there for a few minutes when we're upstairs. I've been going about three weeks now and it's only really clicked for his night sleep in the last week.
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2016, 19:07:44 pm »
We've also gone for an early bedtime today after short naps, even in the sling!

I don't leave dd to cry in the crib at all, but even picking her up as soon as she starts crying doesn't calm her down  :( she won't feed to sleep during the day either, so I can't even use that trick!

Tomorrow is another day, eh.

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2016, 19:11:20 pm »
Poor love :(
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2016, 20:00:51 pm »
Whilst I feel immensely fortunate for having an independent sleeper by that age, as I said before we were not without our tricky phases. Mine would not feed to sleep, nor could he be APOPed, wouldn't fall asleep in arms, in the pushchair or sling, refused a paci and at 3.5 months ran into his 4 month regression early, we had 2 months of short naps, 40 min each, 5 times per day.
If you are getting short naps you will need to put in an extra nap or two or you'll be unlikely to get through to BT.

I want to suggest doing WD in the sling, not for her to end up having an additional sling nap but because this seems to be the place she is calmest. Do you hold her through the sling so she can feel your arms?  This might be a step to try, holding so she becomes accustomed to that feeling (with a view to feeling calmer in arms when not in the sling) and using either shush or a key phrase to repeat.  I would also 'hold' her through the sling and use shush or a key phrase on the other sling naps in the day during her wind down and nodding off period.
Honestly I am surprised you have not seen any improvement yet and am just trying to offer suggestions to help her associate something soothing with sleep time.

Does the sling smell? Does she rub her nose in it? Just wondering if she is associating the smell of the sling with sleep and has become attached to it? There could be a way of testing perhaps by wrapping her somehow in the sling but not wearing her, doing the WD, putting her down in the cot with the sling - DO NOT LEAVE HER - it is not safe to leave her this way you need to stay throughout, but you could observe to see if she was at all calmer, if she fell to sleep you might be able to remove her from the sling wrap to leave her safely in the cot without additional items in with her - although chances are she'd wake.  I wonder too if you can return and put the sling near her face/nose during your W2S attempt, see what happens.  If it turns out she is calmed by the sling smell or fabric we can look at introducing a lovey for WD, she wouldn't be able to be left with a lovey yet but mine fell asleep with a lovey very young, I just removed it after he nodded off.
Just a thought.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 20:03:06 pm by creations »


Offline Graysor

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2016, 21:21:53 pm »
Hi creations

Thanks again for all your suggestions, I really appreciate your input.

I think you're right about her being mostly calmest in the sling. I'll have a go at doing wd in the sling to see if that results in less crying before nap time.

When she naps in the sling I think I hold her a bit, but probably not so much that she feels my arms round her. But I always do shush pat while she's dropping off, so I hoped this would help her associate shush pat with sleepy time.

Interesting thought about th smell of the sling being a sleepy cue for her. I'd like her to have a lovey, but I thought she's a bit young at the moment to have one. Any ideas on how to introduce one?

It's so hard when I just can't stop her crying. It's one thing for her not to be able to self settle to sleep, that would be something to work on but it breaks my heart that she isn't comforted by me holding or cuddling her and this feels like a pretty big barrier to improving her naps.


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2016, 22:02:11 pm »
I'd like her to have a lovey, but I thought she's a bit young at the moment to have one. Any ideas on how to introduce one?
I might be wrong on this but I think the SIDS guidance is not to leave anything in the cot until after 6 months but as I said mine was attached early on to his and I would let him fall to sleep with it then pop back in a minute or two later to remove it. I didn't leave him with it until I felt very confident in his ability to manipulate and control it.
We use muslin squares (plentiful, easy to replace and wash, doesn't matter if one ever gets lost and as I have now discovered a small one can go in his trouser pocket for school so he can take it's magical powers everywhere with him! Here schools don't allow lovies but no one can say no to a 'handkerchief' in his pocket).
You can't guarantee that a LO will attach to what you want her to attach to but you can certainly try. I used a muslin square at every feed, burp, sleep wind down, every cry to wipe his face, every teething phase to wipe drool, to wipe sick when he refluxed, I mean everything, every time we cuddled a muslin square was there, by his face, on my shoulder, across his chest like a bib  When he started solids he had one across his chest and another on his lap, I really did get my money's worth out of those things.  I kept the same laundry detergent throughout his first several years so they always smelled exactly the same. Now he's older he sometimes chooses a different laundry detergent and doesn't mind the different smell.
Some people stuff the lovey in their own clothes for a few days/nights so it smells of Mummy, I never did that, he attached to the laundry smell just fine.

When she naps in the sling I think I hold her a bit, but probably not so much that she feels my arms round her.
She might be feeling pretty weightless in the sling.  There is sometimes a difficulty getting a LO down onto the mattress because they are not used to feeling the weight of their own bodies on a surface plus when in arms they have constant movement.  It could be that she needs to learn the feel of you holding her before this gets easier.  I'm only guessing and trying to think of things which might be bothering her.


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2016, 09:24:02 am »
Try conditioning a sound cue as well, maybe build up a few cues before you try the crib again. The more sleep cues she has, the better. We use the Sound Sleeper app and baby has a bunny comforter that he can hold onto now. We slept with it between us for a few weeks.
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2016, 10:07:36 am »
Been thinking about this. I think with sleepers like ours (possibly more spirited than your guy, creations?) then progress takes weeks rather than days. And then it suddenly all clicks together.

I would establish a really good solid winddown, not too long, and focus on that and on routine for now. Keep her in the sling and log when she drops off so that you get a good idea of her A time.

For winddown, I would put in some cues that can remain when you remove the sling. So we do bag-bunny-book-sleepy phrase-pat (white noise already running). You could read her a book, give her a comforter and then pop her in the sling and pat. Then maybe put her down in the sling when she's sleepy/asleep once you're confident the routine is established. If she cries, pick her up and wear her for the rest of the nap.

What do you think?
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2016, 10:36:26 am »
I think with sleepers like ours (possibly more spirited than your guy, creations?)
:) Mine was mostly textbook.
Based on the countless sleep threads I've supported I'd say this one is certainly on the trickier side, must admit it's really got me thinking.  I haven't often seen a LO who won't at least relax in arms, well only the UT ones who scream to say they are not ready, but this LO doesn't seem UT.

Sounds like a good plan, establishing sleep cues is very helpful.


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2016, 19:31:41 pm »
Thanks both.

I will definitely try to encourage her to take a muslin as a comforter, and work on a good wd routine with other sleep cues. I'll see how we get on doing wd in the sling ( I've been out all day today so haven't had a chance to try it yet).

I'm wondering where I've gone wrong over the last 3 months to have ended up in this situation where my baby isn't comforted by me. It's not normal is it? I have never left her to cry, I thought I was doing a good job of being 'baby led' but obviously not.

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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2016, 19:36:21 pm »
You've done absolutely nothing wrong, you really haven't. It's just maybe now she's old enough and aware enough, she protests at being 'made' to sleep and can't calm down.

Hugs, I remember it well. So very very stressful.
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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2016, 21:51:51 pm »
You haven't done anything wrong xxx  You've cared for and attended to your LO, you've kept her close and loved her, what could be wrong about those things?
As I said in an earlier post, I couldn't AP my DS, he was like the opposite of your LO, he wanted his bed to sleep in and wouldn't sleep anywhere else, not in arms, not in the push chair...I felt very similar to you really, why won't he sleep on me? Why doesn't he find comfort in me?  It was so rare that he would nod off on me (teething or illness) that I would stay perfectly still so I could cherish it, and get someone to take a photograph!!
I remember one night in particular, his reflux was bad, he couldn't sleep, he was screaming and screaming, I held him for hours, he didn't want me to hold him so he was screaming for his bed but if I put him down he was screaming because of his reflux pain and because he couldn't sleep, in the end I just resigned myself to the screaming and told him I was going to be there no matter what and that I was sorry he wanted his bed but I couldn't possibly leave him in his bed crying like that so had to hold him.  wow, it went on and on and on...and eventually he passed out in my arms. It was not an enjoyable experience at all but I felt afterwards that we had somehow bonded all the more.
Your LO might not be sleeping well and you might feel somehow inferior because she doesn't appear to gain instant comfort from your cuddles but you are not alone, many many parents have felt this way, and being there for her (even if it doesn't feel like you are comforting her) is immensely important, she knows you are there, she knows you are not giving up on her.
Many hugs.


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2016, 14:09:59 pm »
Thank you both again for your support. It really helps to have some kind words when it all feels too much.

I keep reading about how important daytime sleep is for babies, and how bad crying is for them which is of course making me feel even worse.  Especially as I can rarely get her to nap longer than 30 mins even in the sling now.

We've been keeping on and trying to use sone of your suggestions.

I think doing the wd in the sling is helping a bit.  She still cries, but it feels like for less time.  I'm doing quite well with conditioning our muslins as a comforter. And I've started to use white noise as another sleep time cue.

I'm still having no luck with either w2s or resettling.  I think part of the problem is that it takes so long to get her down for a nap ( 45 mins ish, regardless of how much A time before i start wd) that she is very hungry when she wakes up after 30 mins making the resettle almost impossible. 

I know there are no magic answers so I'll have to keep trying for now.



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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2016, 14:17:52 pm »
I'm sorry to hear you're still struggling.

WRT waking and being too hungry to resettle. How about just try a top up feed before the nap? Just to see?  I know none of us wants LO to feed to sleep, or to create a snack habit, but if you try a feed before nap just once or twice to see if she sleeps better fuller?  If she falls to sleep feeding you can wake her as you put her down (she would wake anyway I assume).

I know that awful feeling of crying being terribly bad for LO, I felt that way too. I feel differently since I read more research on crying I just feel now like I understand it more. I believe from what I've read that stress level are extremely low if babies are with their parent and being cared for, it is not the same as being left to cry alone. So whilst it feels very horrible for you try to be a little encouraged that your LO  is not getting damage to her development or brain through high levels of stress because you are with her through all of this so she knows she is safe even if she has a lot to complain about xxx



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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2016, 17:39:52 pm »
Hmm, yes I will give a quick pre nap feed a go. I've been reluctant, because of not wanting to create a prop, but I think now just getting any kind of decent nap is more important.

Thats reassuring to hear about the crying being less damaging if they are not left alone. My dd just seems so absolutely furious and distressed that it's hard to see how it's not doing her harm. Could you suggest some things to read that will put my mind at rest a bit?

Today I've spent nearly 4 hours in the dark bedroom with the white noise on, holding, slinging and shush patting while dd cried. All that and she's slept for 2 30 min naps. This afternoon she resisted her nap for over an hour till I had to abandon completely. It's sending me absolutely potty.


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Re: Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2016, 08:34:51 am »
Could you suggest some things to read that will put my mind at rest a bit?
The FAQ in the Sleep FAQ board on CIO/CC may be a useful read, although bare in mind it's purpose is to inform parents who have used or considering using CC methods which is not what you've done.
There was a study by Harlow on rhesus monkeys which is covered in all sorts of articles, you could have a google and read around - it's a horrible experiment but many believe it is justified as it makes clear the need for attachment and response.  The danger to development (brain development, ability to attach and grow to become a stable adult) comes from not being responded to, this is absolutely not what is happening with your LO, you are there, responding, she is not abandoned.
Whilst I know this is extremely hard for you, I am confident that your LO knows you are there and is learning that her cries are attended to by a loving nurturing Mummy.  Perhaps if you read around a little you will become confident in that too?

I must admit, you're having a tough time of it. Your own health is vital too honey, if you are finding this too difficult to continue right now you might want to consider trying for the cot nap just once per day or indeed giving it a break for a while, regain your strength and emotional energy and then trying again in a couple of weeks or so?  We would usually say that consistency is the key to sleep training, it is confusing and unfair to go backwards and forward reducing props, telling LO to sleep in the cot then going back on that and doing sling naps etc, I'm sure you can see the confusion for LO, but *your* mental and emotional health is always more important than independent sleeping. If you are spending so much time in the dark room it can be utterly draining.
Could i suggest that if you are willing to continue to move towards independent sleep, you make sure you get out and about at some time in the day, is there a park you could visit perhaps?  I know when I had a rough patch of sleep with my LO (4 or 5 40 min naps per day) one of the things that really helped was to get out to the park for at least one A time, feel the natural light on your skin, breath the air, look at the trees, listen to the birds. It was a short trip for us but worth the effort.