Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!

[Graysor]

Hi creations

Yes, the hardly ever crying was when I was carrying her in a sling a lot of the time, and for all her naps. I took on board the "fourth trimester" theory, and it obviously worked really well for us. But we're well passed that now (nearly 15 weeks).

Having said I was going to give it a rest, I actually had a free day at home yesterday so we persevered. I hear what you're saying about not waiting till breaking point!

First nap was the best ever! We went upstairs after 1.5 hours A time. And I managed to put her down in the crib awake but calm (feels like an achievement in itself!). After about 15 mins shush pat she fell asleep. I went back after 25 mins to do w2s. She woke crying and couldn't be soothed in the crib, but fell asleep in my arms and went back down for another hour.

After that I really thought I was winning, but the rest of the day was a bit of a disaster.

She was getting grouchy after only 1 hour A time, so we went for a nap at about 1 hour 15. She was crying hard so I couldn't put her down awake, and she fell asleep after about 15 mins crying in arms. I went in to do w2s again, but she woke after 30 mins and was inconsolable. I tried to resettle for 45 mins, including 3 failed put down attempts.

The afternoon nap followed the same pattern, and we resorted to the sling for the evening cat nap.

MJ&N - I'd be really interested to hear your experiences, and if you have any tips or coping strategies if you think you had similar. I'm definitely all out of ideas!

I think that on top of all this we have now hit the 4 month sleep regression. The last 2 nights she has gone from one or two NWs when she'd have a quick feed and drop straight off again, to wake ups every hour or so, won't settle after a feed, waking with a jolt after 30 mins as she can't transition into deep sleep. Argh!

[creations]

First nap was the best ever! We went upstairs after 1.5 hours A time. And I managed to put her down in the crib awake but calm (feels like an achievement in itself!). After about 15 mins shush pat she fell asleep.

This really is a big achievement. Sleep training is a process, I'm afraid shush/pat is not a magical method which just 'works', but it is a method whereby she knows you are there with her, supporting her whilst you put changes in place.  It's possible to begin with just one nap per day and sling nap the others. When she is in the habit of going down into her cot for that one nap you can then work on the second nap.
Waking mid nap is normal when a LO is not yet able to self settle, she is so used to transitioning in the sling with your closeness and movement, all that changes when the expectation is to sleep in her cot.

I know it's hard work.  My DS was sleep trained very gradually when he was tiny and would happily go down in his bed to self settle and nod off alone at just a couple of months old but that doesn't mean we haven't had tricky phases, we have had extremely tricky phases when he's needed lots and lots of comfort and holding etc etc... and I've experienced the bad back, RSI in my wrist and elbow from holding etc etc.  Hugs, I know it's really hard going to hear your LO cry and even with sleep training mine very early there were still times when he was older I felt like I was approaching breaking point, which really is why I am a big believer in moving on with sleep training when they are small enough to pick up and hold when needed.  This really is the BW ethos too, to respect baby through support but to help yourself by tackling sleep before you are totally out of energy.

There is always support here x

[michaeljacknnugg]

That nap sounds like real progress!

My boys are very different but have elements of what you're describing in them.

DS1 cried before every sleep for ages and it was so stressful, I hated it. We had a rocking chair so that was the prop I was willing to keep. I held him, sang to him and rocked.... A lot!

I've since found an article suggesting that some babies actually need to cry before sleep, to release tension) and that the best thing to do for them is just to hold them and minimise any stimulation whilst they are trying to get to sleep. I wonder now whether I did too much.

My little guy is one of those babies who gets more tense with crying, so I'm aiming for him to cry (really cry, not grumble) as little as possible. Like you we've done a lot of sling naps, and the great thing about them is that I can work out his A time from when he chooses to go to sleep in the sling.

We're working on one, maybe two crib naps a day, with the others in arms/sling/car/fed to sleep. I've felt that getting a routine is most important to start with. We do the same wind down for all crib naps and then I pat him gently. Most times he goes off now but it's taken a while to get there, but if he gets upset I pick him up. There's always another nap to try on.

I've gone from having to pat through the whole nap to just patting him to sleep and then keeping a hand on him. One day I will be able to reduce this input, but we're not there yet. He always wakes at 40 minutes, earlier if I accidentally move, and I think that this again is a time thing.

It's a long slow road, but with his brother we had self settling for two long naps a day around six months, and that's where I'm hoping to be with this guy.

Hth!

[Graysor]

Thanks Creations and MJ&N for your kind words and support.

That's an interesting theory about some babies needing to cry before going to sleep. Maybe my dd is like that (although not when she's in the sling!).

MJ - what do you do to try and minimise the crying your little one does? My dd works herself up into such a fury that I find it impossible to calm her down.

We have been continuing with one or two naps a day in the crib. Not much progress. She still cries and cries while being held, and eventually falls asleep in my arms. She then wakes up exactly 35 mins after eventually going down, and I haven't had any more success with w2s or resettling once she's woken.

Any ideas on how best to try and resettle her? When she wakes she starts crying hard immediately (presumably because she's still tired, and because she's confused about waking up somewhere different to where she fell asleep) and shush pat in the crib has no soothing effect. I pick her up but that doesn't make any difference to the crying. She seems to hate being held up over my shoulder, and I usually have to hold her tiger in the tree style to get her to calm down eventually. Unfortunately that makes it practically impossible to shush pat, or to easily transfer her to her crib once she does eventually drop off.

I'm also a bit stuck with what to do with her A time as she's having such short naps. For example if she wakes 35 mins after going to sleep, I then need to start the next nap really early to stop her getting OT. should I be adding in extra naps to make up for this?

[michaeljacknnugg]

I would just go for one crib nap a day at present, and keep the others in the sling. Hopefully she'll catch herself up that way.

We've had horrendously short naps today but a good long night beforehand. So I've gone for bedtime roughly half an hour early, and hoped!

I don't leave him crying in the crib at all. I give him a chance to see if it's a grumble or a full on cry, and if it's the latter I pick him up and jiggle him or feed him to sleep. There's always another nap to try on and I want him to have positive associations with the crib. I also put him down to play there for a few minutes when we're upstairs. I've been going about three weeks now and it's only really clicked for his night sleep in the last week.

[Graysor]

We've also gone for an early bedtime today after short naps, even in the sling!

I don't leave dd to cry in the crib at all, but even picking her up as soon as she starts crying doesn't calm her down  she won't feed to sleep during the day either, so I can't even use that trick!

Tomorrow is another day, eh.

[michaeljacknnugg]

Poor love

[creations]

Whilst I feel immensely fortunate for having an independent sleeper by that age, as I said before we were not without our tricky phases. Mine would not feed to sleep, nor could he be APOPed, wouldn't fall asleep in arms, in the pushchair or sling, refused a paci and at 3.5 months ran into his 4 month regression early, we had 2 months of short naps, 40 min each, 5 times per day.
If you are getting short naps you will need to put in an extra nap or two or you'll be unlikely to get through to BT.

I want to suggest doing WD in the sling, not for her to end up having an additional sling nap but because this seems to be the place she is calmest. Do you hold her through the sling so she can feel your arms?  This might be a step to try, holding so she becomes accustomed to that feeling (with a view to feeling calmer in arms when not in the sling) and using either shush or a key phrase to repeat.  I would also 'hold' her through the sling and use shush or a key phrase on the other sling naps in the day during her wind down and nodding off period.
Honestly I am surprised you have not seen any improvement yet and am just trying to offer suggestions to help her associate something soothing with sleep time.

Does the sling smell? Does she rub her nose in it? Just wondering if she is associating the smell of the sling with sleep and has become attached to it? There could be a way of testing perhaps by wrapping her somehow in the sling but not wearing her, doing the WD, putting her down in the cot with the sling - DO NOT LEAVE HER - it is not safe to leave her this way you need to stay throughout, but you could observe to see if she was at all calmer, if she fell to sleep you might be able to remove her from the sling wrap to leave her safely in the cot without additional items in with her - although chances are she'd wake.  I wonder too if you can return and put the sling near her face/nose during your W2S attempt, see what happens.  If it turns out she is calmed by the sling smell or fabric we can look at introducing a lovey for WD, she wouldn't be able to be left with a lovey yet but mine fell asleep with a lovey very young, I just removed it after he nodded off.
Just a thought.

[Graysor]

Hi creations

Thanks again for all your suggestions, I really appreciate your input.

I think you're right about her being mostly calmest in the sling. I'll have a go at doing wd in the sling to see if that results in less crying before nap time.

When she naps in the sling I think I hold her a bit, but probably not so much that she feels my arms round her. But I always do shush pat while she's dropping off, so I hoped this would help her associate shush pat with sleepy time.

Interesting thought about th smell of the sling being a sleepy cue for her. I'd like her to have a lovey, but I thought she's a bit young at the moment to have one. Any ideas on how to introduce one?

It's so hard when I just can't stop her crying. It's one thing for her not to be able to self settle to sleep, that would be something to work on but it breaks my heart that she isn't comforted by me holding or cuddling her and this feels like a pretty big barrier to improving her naps.

[creations]

I'd like her to have a lovey, but I thought she's a bit young at the moment to have one. Any ideas on how to introduce one?

I might be wrong on this but I think the SIDS guidance is not to leave anything in the cot until after 6 months but as I said mine was attached early on to his and I would let him fall to sleep with it then pop back in a minute or two later to remove it. I didn't leave him with it until I felt very confident in his ability to manipulate and control it.
We use muslin squares (plentiful, easy to replace and wash, doesn't matter if one ever gets lost and as I have now discovered a small one can go in his trouser pocket for school so he can take it's magical powers everywhere with him! Here schools don't allow lovies but no one can say no to a 'handkerchief' in his pocket).
You can't guarantee that a LO will attach to what you want her to attach to but you can certainly try. I used a muslin square at every feed, burp, sleep wind down, every cry to wipe his face, every teething phase to wipe drool, to wipe sick when he refluxed, I mean everything, every time we cuddled a muslin square was there, by his face, on my shoulder, across his chest like a bib  When he started solids he had one across his chest and another on his lap, I really did get my money's worth out of those things.  I kept the same laundry detergent throughout his first several years so they always smelled exactly the same. Now he's older he sometimes chooses a different laundry detergent and doesn't mind the different smell.
Some people stuff the lovey in their own clothes for a few days/nights so it smells of Mummy, I never did that, he attached to the laundry smell just fine.

When she naps in the sling I think I hold her a bit, but probably not so much that she feels my arms round her.

She might be feeling pretty weightless in the sling.  There is sometimes a difficulty getting a LO down onto the mattress because they are not used to feeling the weight of their own bodies on a surface plus when in arms they have constant movement.  It could be that she needs to learn the feel of you holding her before this gets easier.  I'm only guessing and trying to think of things which might be bothering her.

[michaeljacknnugg]

Try conditioning a sound cue as well, maybe build up a few cues before you try the crib again. The more sleep cues she has, the better. We use the Sound Sleeper app and baby has a bunny comforter that he can hold onto now. We slept with it between us for a few weeks.

[michaeljacknnugg]

Been thinking about this. I think with sleepers like ours (possibly more spirited than your guy, creations?) then progress takes weeks rather than days. And then it suddenly all clicks together.

I would establish a really good solid winddown, not too long, and focus on that and on routine for now. Keep her in the sling and log when she drops off so that you get a good idea of her A time.

For winddown, I would put in some cues that can remain when you remove the sling. So we do bag-bunny-book-sleepy phrase-pat (white noise already running). You could read her a book, give her a comforter and then pop her in the sling and pat. Then maybe put her down in the sling when she's sleepy/asleep once you're confident the routine is established. If she cries, pick her up and wear her for the rest of the nap.

What do you think?

[creations]

I think with sleepers like ours (possibly more spirited than your guy, creations?)

Mine was mostly textbook.
Based on the countless sleep threads I've supported I'd say this one is certainly on the trickier side, must admit it's really got me thinking.  I haven't often seen a LO who won't at least relax in arms, well only the UT ones who scream to say they are not ready, but this LO doesn't seem UT.

Sounds like a good plan, establishing sleep cues is very helpful.

[Graysor]

Thanks both.

I will definitely try to encourage her to take a muslin as a comforter, and work on a good wd routine with other sleep cues. I'll see how we get on doing wd in the sling ( I've been out all day today so haven't had a chance to try it yet).

I'm wondering where I've gone wrong over the last 3 months to have ended up in this situation where my baby isn't comforted by me. It's not normal is it? I have never left her to cry, I thought I was doing a good job of being 'baby led' but obviously not.

[michaeljacknnugg]

You've done absolutely nothing wrong, you really haven't. It's just maybe now she's old enough and aware enough, she protests at being 'made' to sleep and can't calm down.

Hugs, I remember it well. So very very stressful.