Help me spot tired cues and stop the crying!

[Graysor]

I am completely hopeless at spotting tired sleepy cues from my 13.5 week old dd. What should I be looking for? I know yawns are a late sign, but what else is there? I never seem to see the avoiding eye contact and staring into space. But maybe I'm just not paying enough attention? Any tips? Anything else I'm missing?

At the moment I try to make sure we start going down for a nap after about an hour and fifteen minutes awake time. The problem is that as soon as I start doing the nap routine she starts crying (full on wailing, rigid arms and legs etc). And then seems to be inconsolable for a good 30 mins or so.

Is this because she is overtired? How can I stop her crying and get her calm enough to put down for her nap? Holding, rocking, swaying, singing, shushing all seem to have no effect. She won't have a dummy, despite lots of trying.

Help!

[creations]

Hello again

It sounds to me like she is a bit UT (under tired) rather than OT (over tired).  Resisting nap and being quite loud about it can be a sign of UT, looking at your A time it could be a little short for her now.
This is a really handy link, remember it's just a guide, a place to start, as time goes on you will learn if your LO prefers a longer than average or shorter than average A time or slightly different throughout the day. Don't worry these things take time to learn as you get to know her more
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

That A time, 1hr 15 mins, is this when you begin wind down? So you are aiming to get her to sleep for around at 1hr 35 total A time?
I would suggest putting her down for a nap 10-15 mins later, so a total A time of 1hr 45 including the WD time.  Here we always count A time from eyes open baby awake to eyes shut baby asleep. Wind down, eating, nappy change etc are all part of that A time.
It's also worth noting, some LOs take the full 20 mins to fall to sleep (in the very early days I could time mine to the minute!) but as they grow into their character a bit some like the long WD and some don't.  Mine as it turned out like a very short WD so if I tried a 20 mins WD he would kick off shouting and screaming trying to tell me he had not finished playing yet.  If I took him up later and gave a very short WD (nappy change, 3 mins song, into cot, leave) he went to sleep right away. Long or short WD the A time can be the same the only difference is when you begin the process of winding down, which for some LOs winds them up because they are not happy.

How did you do since you last thread? Did you feel you made any progress with getting her down in her cot to sleep?

[Graysor]

Hi creations,  thanks for your response.  That's interesting you think maybe UT. I've been so worried about OT I hadn't really considered that!

The hour 15 mins awake time excludes the wd time trying to get her down. So after all the crying it's usually 1 hr 45 to 2 hrs total awake before she's asleep again. 

We are having more success with napping in her crib now, which is great.  But I have to hold her till she's in a deep sleep before transferring to the crib. And most of this time she is crying.  I find it hard to shush pat when holding her,  as she's so wriggly I need both hands to hold her securely, making the patting part impossible! 

I'm keen to start putting her down sleepy but awake, but she seems to go from wide awake angry crying to fast asleep in my arms so fast that I miss the window. But putting her down  while she's still crying is hopeless. 

[creations]

OK, the A time is longer than I thought so actually it's a decent time.  Have you tried starting the WD a bit later though?  If she is ending up awake for up to 2hrs anyway it might be worth a try to begin WD at 1hr 45 when she might be more ready for sleep.  Some times if a LO is UT for a nap they fuss about it so much they end up crying through the period where they might have gone to sleep if you'd started the process later. Hope that makes sense.

Do you swaddle her?  Might help with the wiggling.

Has she ever fallen to sleep on her own without you holding her?

Does she begin crying on the way to her bedroom or when you go in there or after you have started the shush/pat?

Once she is asleep how long is she sleeping for?  If they are short naps she might well be getting OT as the day progresses due to not having a restorative nap (1.5-2hr).

[Graysor]

Thanks creations, lots to think about there.

I think it's a good suggestion to start the wd later. You're right that she is probably fussing so much and working herself up so she can't get to sleep. I will try waiting to start wd after about an hour and a half or an hour 45 and see if that helps.

To answer your questions:

I've never tried swaddling her, is she too old to start now? (Nearly 14 weeks).

I don't think she's ever fallen asleep independently. It's always been on me or in the sling. I think we've managed once or twice to shush pat her to sleep in her crib from when drowsy. But literally only once or twice.

She sometimes starts crying once we're in the bedroom, but often she's crying before, and I usually assume at this point that she's OT and therefore need to get on with the WD. 

she only manages short naps, and tends to wake after one sleep cycle (35-45 mins). Unless she's in the sling, when she will sometimes go for 1.5 hours.  So you're right that she is probably OT by the end of the day. I've tried to resettle with shush  pat when she starts to stir after 30-35 mins ish, but she just cries and gets increasingly upset.

[creations]

If you are not already recording your EAS times could you begin now so we can have a look at how the day pans out?  Make short notes about mood, if you try to resettle etc by the times.

So, even if you hold, rock, shush/pat etc she still isn't going to sleep?
Are there any sings of illness? or reflux?

[Graysor]

Thanks for your ongoing support and input.

I've been diligently recording times for weeks now! This is yesterday,  which is fairly typical. 

7.15 - 7.30 E
7.30 - 9.10 A
9.10 - 9.40 S ( trying to put her down from 8.45, inconsolable crying. Eventually fell asleep in arms and transferred to crib)
9.40 - 10 A  (trying to resettle, inconsolable crying from 9.50. Abandoned after 20 mins)
10 - 10.15 E
10.15 - 11.30 A
11.30 - 12 S ( in sling on way to activity  )
12 - 12.45 A
12.45 - 1 E
1 - 1.40 A
1.40 - 3 S ( in sling on way home)
3 - 3.20 A
3.20 - 3.30 E
3.30 - 4.55 A
4.55 - 5.20 S (  started to put her down at 4.20, crying till asleep in arms )
5.20 - 5.35 A  (crying,  trying to resettle )
5.35 - 5.45 E
5.45 - 6.45 A
6.45 - 7 E  (bedtime )
7 - 7.15 A ( crying )
7.15  - 2 S ( fell asleep in arms)
2 - 2.30 E
2.30 - 5.15 S ( straight to sleep after feed)
5.15 - 5.45 E
5.45 - 7 S (straight to sleep after feed )

No signs of illness or reflux as far as I can tell. Very rarely brings anything up, is happy lying on her back under her play gym, sleeps well in her crib at night  etc.

Any thoughts? 

[creations]

Oh dear   She's just not happy is she?

OK, looks like you need to crack on with sleep training so that she becomes more accustomed to the routine and more confident to go to sleep, stay asleep and transition from one sleep cycle to another.
What do you think of starting out with nap 1.  Using the W2S (wake to sleep) method to help her sleep through the transition and if she wakes continue to attempt to resettle for longer?  The idea is that she learns it is sleep time. You keep her in the bedroom in the dark/dim light 'telling' her to sleep until nap time is over. This means either a successful W2S to lengthen to nap or if that fails resettling for up to 45 mins.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Have a look at naps option 1

What do you think?

[Graysor]

I know, she is so angry and upset around nap times, and it's really getting me down. She is so happy and contended the rest of the time that it seems even worse to me when she gets distressed about naps   

This morning was a little better. She woke up early so we've had to go down early for her morning nap. She was getting cranky and started crying after about an hour and a half awake so I assumed she was tired and took her upstairs and did the nap time wd routine. She was crying even on the way upstairs, but then fell asleep in my arms after only 10 mins and transferred easily to the crib. Not sure how long it will last, but I will try wake to sleep and see if that helps her transition.

It's so hard when she still doesn't seem to be calmed by the shush pat, even though I've been consistent with it at bedtimes, and at least one nap every day (always the first, and sometimes others too) for about 4 weeks now. Is there anything else I could be doing to help calm soothe her when she is really distressed? I feel like I'm all out of ideas!

[creations]

Have you done the Know your baby quiz?  I wonder if she is just a grumpy baby and this crying before naps i s just part of her character?  Really I am racking my brains for other reasons for her crying when you have been running a consistent routine, with suitable A times, and it's not even like you are trying to break a prop habit which I'd expect crying with, she is crying even in arms.

Do you ever go into her room when it is not sleep time?  For instance taking her in whilst you put laundry away or vacuum or tidy up etc? How does she respond to going upstairs and into her room when it is not nap time?

For now honey I just want to reassure you that you are doing everything you can, don't take it personally that she's crying, she clearly has a lot to tell you about!! Stay calm throughout (some people find ear plugs help - you can still hear your baby but it can take the edge off and help you stay calm), respond to her crying by doing as you are, holding, shush/pat or rocking etc.  And be kind to yourself, this is not your 'fault' and you are doing really well.

One thing you might try - take her upstairs earlier than nap time (so she is definitely not OT or about to cry) and see if she remains calm. If she remains relatively content put her down in her cot, say 'sleepy time call if you need me', and leave the room.  If/when she cries go back in and pick up, do your usual to sooth her.  I  know I am slightly contradicting my previous advice to try the nap a touch later, but I'd like to see how she responds with almost no WD, just upstairs, in the room, super fast cuddle and into bed.

Is she eating ok?
Is the temperature much different between one room and another (ie colder in her bedroom?)

[Graysor]

Thanks again creations. I've done the quiz and she comes out as split equally between angel, textbook and grumpy. That seems about right to me, as apart from the napping she is generally a very happy and easy little thing.

We don't go up to the bedroom much during the day except for nap and bedtime. So maybe should start doing that more so she is familiar and happy going there.

I'll have a go at going up super early and seeing if she'll go into her crib contently. I guess it's worth a go!

She feeds well, and is climbing the percentiles for her weight. And no noticeable temperature differences I don't think.

Onwards and upwards I guess.

[creations]

OK I would try going into the bedroom quite early in the A time with the sole purpose of NOT sleeping but tidying, playing, just sitting and having a chat, looking around the room together describing things etc.  Part of this could possibly be that she doesn't feel familiar or comfortable in that room so make it clear to her, we are not going to sleep we are going for a look around.  Unfold and refold some clothes if you have to, just something to be in the room for a while, if she is relatively happy put her down somewhere safe (in her cot) and tell her you just need to go to the toilet or nip into the other room for something and you'll be back. Pop out, and return, see how she is.  Finish the play time in there in enough time to leave the room do something else for a while and then return for nap wind down.
Worth a try.

[Graysor]

So this morning's nap was worse than ever, despite us spending a bit of time in the  bedroom in the morning. 

After 1.5 hours  A time she was cranky and starting to cry so I have to assume this is her tired signal and that I'm missing her earlier cues.  We went up to the bedroom and did a quick wd of shutting the curtains and singing the bedtime song.  She started crying as soon as I started to put her down in her crib. So there is no opportunity for me to leave her there when she's quiet. She then carried on crying for 30 mins before falling asleep in my arms.  I went in to do w2s  but she woke up and cried after 30 mins asleep. Wouldn't resettle in the crib so I held her.  45 mins and 3 failed put down attempts later we abandoned. 

I couldn't face any more nap time battles today and just had her in the sling most of the day, where she easily and happily napped for 1.5 hours at lunchtime and another hour in the afternoon. 

To be honest I don't think the baby whisperer method is working for us. I feel like I've gone from having a baby who hardly ever cries to one who cries for ages before,  during and after all her naps. She seems to be going for less and less time asleep in her crib, barely managing 30 mins now. And I seem to have created a prop where she only falls asleep being held, and created a negative association with the bedroom  (not just her crib).

Thanks for all your input creations, but i think I'm going to have to leave it for now as I can't cope with the hours of crying anymore. 

[creations]

Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time of it xx

I feel like I've gone from having a baby who hardly ever cries

When she hardly ever cried how was she sleeping? In her cot or on you?

I can understand that you want to stop for now. We always say parents need to be ready for sleep training, it is time when you are ready.  I only want to say, gently, that if you have her in arms or in a sling for every nap she will likely be happy and sleep well, but one day she will be pretty heavy and that's when it often gets to parents and often when 'breaking point' is reached - sore arms, sore back, no Y time, it becomes too much to hold/walk/rock/sling for every nap and something has to change.  My advice would be to begin sleep training before it gets to that point but as I say, you are ready when you are ready.

We will be here x

[michaeljacknnugg]

My phone's about to die but I will be back if you still need help. She sounds like a combination of my boys, so I have a few ideas. Let me know! It's fine to take a break, it really is.