Technical Questions on PU/PD

[Mommyroo16]

My DH and I started sleep training on my 18 week old DS 5 days ago.  We chose the PU/PD method because it seemed like a gentler sleep training method than some others.  However, after 5 nights of PU/PD it doesn't seem to be getting any better than when we tried the first night.  I have some questions on PU/PD to make sure we're doing it right.  The book doesn't go into that much detail.
1. Should we be holding him on our shoulder when we pick him up?  We've been holding him in a cradle hold and it seems to calm him easier than the shoulder.
2. Can we sing to him when we pick him up?  It also seems to calm him down, but I'm afraid of it becoming a prop. (It's hard to tell what is a prop and what is just comforting.)
3. Is holding him until he is drowsy counterproductive for the first put down of the night?  He cries as soon as we put him down but when we pick him up he practically falls asleep in our arms.
4. We only started PU/PD for BT because we wanted to make sure he had these established habits before we tackled naps.  Should we be doing PU/PD simultaneously for naps?  Right now he has to be held or in a car seat to nap.  I'm afraid that if we do naps at the same time this poor kid will never get any sleep!
5. If it's still taking 45 minutes to put him down at BT after 5 nights are we doing it wrong or is he just not getting it?
6. What is the best case scenario here?  Are we expecting that we will be able to one day just put him in his crib awake after his BT routine and he will go to sleep?  I just can't see that happening!!
7.  It feels like we are just teaching him that if he cries he'll get picked up.  I don't see how this teaches self-soothing.

My DS is still getting up 3 times a night to eat.  He's EBF and before we started sleep training he would only go to sleep while nursing (or in the car seat).  He was waking up so many times during the night and going on my breast to get back to sleep that I think he became used to eating a lot at night.  I'm hoping as he starts to get better at sleeping at night he will wake less to sleep.  I've also been trying to feed him for longer times when he eats in order to fill him up.

My DH and I are just so frustrated because we were hoping this would work out.  When do we decide that this method doesn't work for our DS and try another one?

Thanks for any help you can give!!!

[anna*]

Hi there, welcome to the boards!

1. Should we be holding him on our shoulder when we pick him up?  We've been holding him in a cradle hold and it seems to calm him easier than the shoulder.

Whatever works best for him/you.

2. Can we sing to him when we pick him up?  It also seems to calm him down, but I'm afraid of it becoming a prop. (It's hard to tell what is a prop and what is just comforting.)

Singing is fine. You can gradually reduce the volume/length for how long you sing. It will become a prop if you sing to him until he is fast asleep, every time.

3. Is holding him until he is drowsy counterproductive for the first put down of the night?  He cries as soon as we put him down but when we pick him up he practically falls asleep in our arms.

Try and put him down before he is asleep. Drowsy is ok.

4. We only started PU/PD for BT because we wanted to make sure he had these established habits before we tackled naps.  Should we be doing PU/PD simultaneously for naps?  Right now he has to be held or in a car seat to nap.  I'm afraid that if we do naps at the same time this poor kid will never get any sleep!

I think it is taking so long because you're only doing bedtime, so he's not getting a lot of practice at independent sleep. It is perfectly possible that the first couple of days he may miss a few naps but over tiredness at some point does work in your favour as at some point he WILL sleep, and you can make sure he does that independently.

5. If it's still taking 45 minutes to put him down at BT after 5 nights are we doing it wrong or is he just not getting it?

I think you need to reassess after like a week of doing PUPD for naps as well as at bedtime. It could also be worth posting your routine because if he is under-tired or overtired that will make independent sleep more difficult.

6. What is the best case scenario here?  Are we expecting that we will be able to one day just put him in his crib awake after his BT routine and he will go to sleep?  I just can't see that happening!!

I know right? But yes that is the aim and it is achievable. I never forget the first time i put an awake but calm baby into his crib and he DIDNT start crying. I gave him a kiss goodnight and left the room fully expecting him to start crying as soon as I was gone but he didn't. He just quietly got himself off to sleep.

7.  It feels like we are just teaching him that if he cries he'll get picked up.  I don't see how this teaches self-soothing.

You want him to know that you'll be there if he's crying, right? Better than teaching him that you WONT come if he cries? The trick is to keep in mind the end goal and always be working towards it. So to start off with he needs to almost fall asleep in your arms, but you put him down sooner and sooner, and you work on comforting him in his crib and only picking him up if he is really escalating. It's a process.

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Hi welcome to BW forums
Great advice from Anna, as always.
I just wanted to add a couple of things:

He cries as soon as we put him down but when we pick him up he practically falls asleep in our arms.

If he is falling to sleep very quickly when you pick up you might be able to put firm hands around him in the cot and just pick him up a couple of centimetres off the mattress (this may be after a period of your regular PUPD so that he really is on the verge of sleep) and he might calm almost instantly in which case you can lower him back down and keep your hands on him, firmly so he feels 'held' but also feels his body weight on the mattress. If he cries again instantly your hands are already in place to do that little pick up, it's almost soothing in the cot.
I didn't use the full on PUPD method as mine was sleep trained younger with shush/pat but I did find myself in a position once (with a transition into a new cot) where I had no choice but to PUPD for a night, after a while my DS was falling to sleep the instant I picked him up, so I did as described above and literally pick him up a centimetre and put him right back down again.
It is also a step closer to soothing in the cot, firm hands or patting, rubbing/stroking in the cot are reassuring for LO. It's ok to do this if it helps him relax in the cot and it reduces how much you pick up.  A firm hand on him in the cot can be weaned in the same was as shush/pat by reducing over time.

It feels like we are just teaching him that if he cries he'll get picked up.

This is absolutely what you want him to teach him - that when he needs you, you will always respond - through total confidence that you will always come when you are needed he will actually need you less.  Imagine he is laying there thinking "oh no I am alone, Mummy is not here, maybe a big tiger will get me", he cries out, you arrive in a second and he thinks "oh, right, Mummy IS looking out for me, so even though I cannot see her, even though she is not holding me, she is still on guard and no tigers are coming, I'm fine, I'm safe."  What you are teaching him is that he IS safe to sleep in his cot alone, that he CAN fall to sleep in his cot rather than in arms and that you WILL always always be there when he needs you.

My DH and I are just so frustrated because we were hoping this would work out.

Sleep training is a process, it really can be hard work for parents initially but the benefits are great, you won't believe it when you are able to put him down give him a kiss and say "night night, sleep well, call if you need me" and leave the room.  It feels great as a parent to get that Y time but it also feels wonderful to have given your baby the gift of independent sleep.  Although mine was ST younger I still have a couple of wonderful memories.  Once after a tricky period of short naps where he'd needed some additional help and I felt like we were back to square one and had lost all ability to self sooth and independent sleep, I finally realised he didn't need the additional help but I had still been giving it (ie I was bothering him with extra soothing which he didn't want), I did our short wind down, put him in his cot, said "call if you need me" he gave me a most wonderful smile as he watched me leave the room. I popped back in about a minute later and he was sound asleep.

I recently supported on a thread where mum and dad were walking LO up and down for hours to get him to sleep.  Mum and dad are now watching LO self settle on the monitor whilst they have (well deserved) tea and cake Imagine!  You'll get there.

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There are also some success story Sticky Threads at the top of the General Sleep, Night Waking, and naps boards if you and your DH feel it might help to read what others have experienced.

[Mommyroo16]

Thank you so much for your advice! Last night was a great night!  I only had to PUPD a few times to start and then just shushed with a heavy hand. It was awesome. Each time he woke to eat I only had to do the heavy hand. He even self soothed at the 45 minute mark. I now see that our hard work is paying off!

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Wonderful news!

[Mommyroo16]

I have a few more questions!

My DS is still waking 3 times a night to feed...pretty much every 3 hours.  He never sleeps until 11pm because he wakes to feed before then.  Can I dream feed him early, say between 9:30 and 10pm?  Would you recommend trying a dream feed on a 4.5 month old?

Also, DS needs us to use a heavy hand for a while after he is put down in the crib.  If we try to leave to early, he wakes up.  Is that normal?  How long should we stay there?  How do we stop him from needing this?

How long should PU/PD or shush pat take to work on a textbook, 4 month old?  We still can't put him down awake and leave the room.  It's been 11 nights.  As per your suggestion, we started doing PU/PD for naps.  It has been brutal!  He cries from anywhere between 10-30 minutes before calming down.  Then he takes short naps (less than 45 minutes).  I think this has made us regress a little on BT.  Can one of his naps be in the stroller or car seat because he is not getting much sleep on these days.  Also when he wakes up from the naps, usually crying, and I feed him he starts to fall asleep on my breast.  What should I do??

Thanks again for your help!!

[anna*]

Can you post your routine?

[Mommyroo16]

His routine is similar everyday but the times change because his naps are so unpredictable.  We're trying to keep him on the 4 hour EASY schedule but it's hard because he takes such short naps.

Yesterday it was:
W 7:00
E 7:10
A 7:30-9:00
S 9:30-10:15 (It took 20 minutes to get him down for his nap)
E 10:20 (falling  asleep on the breast)
A 10:45-12:00
S 12:30-12:45 (It took 30 minutes to get him down for his nap)
E 1:00 (falling asleep on the breast)
A 1:30-2:50
S 3:10-3:40 (it took 10 minutes to get him down)
E 3:45 (falling asleep on the breast)
He was exhausted so my DH tried to put him down for a nap from 4:45-5:15. He just screamed the whole time. 
E 6:40
S 7:10pm

Overnight, last night, this happened:
Wake 8:10-8:18 (used PU/PD)
E 10:15
S 10:45 (did shush/heavy hand)
Wake 12:00-12:18 (used PU/PD)
E 1:05am
S 1:35am (just did heavy hand)
Wake 2:49-2:54 (used shush/pat)
E 3:35
S 4:00 (did shush/heavy hand)
Wake 6:10 (he self soothed)
Awake for the day 7:10

[anna*]

It sounds like he is a bit overtired, I would start doing your wind down routine a little earlier and see if that helps him settle a little quicker.

My DS is still waking 3 times a night to feed...pretty much every 3 hours.  He never sleeps until 11pm because he wakes to feed before then.  Can I dream feed him early, say between 9:30 and 10pm?  Would you recommend trying a dream feed on a 4.5 month old?

Definitely worth a try.

Also, DS needs us to use a heavy hand for a while after he is put down in the crib.  If we try to leave to early, he wakes up.  Is that normal?  How long should we stay there?  How do we stop him from needing this?

Yes this can definitely become a prop. One thing you could do is try tucking a blanket tight over him, so that he gets the same feeling of weight. Or, start to gradually remove your hand as soon as he is calm, so that it can be removed before he is asleep. The only way to make sure it doesn't become a prop is to accept there may be some crying and keep working to make sure he is falling asleep without it.

Can one of his naps be in the stroller or car seat because he is not getting much sleep on these days. 

Absolutely.

Also when he wakes up from the naps, usually crying, and I feed him he starts to fall asleep on my breast.  What should I do??

Howlong do you try to resettle him for when he wakes early from a nap? Hopefully if he is  going down a wee bit earlier, you might get some longer naps. 4 months old is terrible for short naps, most of them do grow into longer naps, gradually.

Thanks again for your help!!
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4 months old is terrible for short naps, most of them do grow into longer naps, gradually.

I often think 4 months is a really hard time to introduce independent sleeping but you have to start some time don't you?
Mine was an independent sleeper from about 2 months old but even so we had a horrible phase of short naps which for us was 3.5-5.5 months (but for most the timing is 4-6 months) so it's a tricky time even for those LOs who have learned to self settle much earlier. Just thought it might help you to know you're not alone and very many people go through a rough phase at this age.