Independent sleep, routine change and extending naps....need all of it!!

[KiusMum]

hello lovely ppl,

In desperate need of advice/guidance in teaching independent sleep to my LO(DS2). Had some amazing help in the past here
with DS1 and have tried techniques for teaching DS2, but I guess I am not doing it right or missing something ...

So LO is a preemie baby so I am forever trying to figure out his actual A and S times..cos it looks like he falls somewhere in between
his actual and corrected age. His actual age is 8 months old, whereas corrected age is 6.5 months old.

He is mostly BF, I have started formula since last week but it is a major struggle for us to let him have it cos he is so used to the breast milk. His routine is somewhat like that, has 3 solid meals a day +  a snack.

WU - 7.15/7.30 AM
Breakfast (Solids) - 8.30 AM (I dont feed him before this becos hes mostly been feeding on and off from 6 - 7 am)
Nap - 9.15/9.30                                                                                                                                                                                     - 10.00/10.15 (45 min nap..sometimes 1 hr)

I try hard to stretch the first nap to 1.5 hr and get his wu time to 11.00, but again its difficult and depends a lot on when I get to him.
I have tried W2S with some success but I end up being in the room all the time holding him or patting him in the cot till about 11 a.m.

BreastFeed -11.00-11.15
Massage and bath - 11.30 - 12.15
Lunch - 12.30
Nap - 1.15 - 2.45 ( 45 min wake up @ 2 pm wailing, resettle by patting/rocking or breast feeding for another half an hour)
BF - 3.00 - 3.15

A - 3.30 - 4.45 (has a snack in between sometimes)
Catnap - 4.45 - 5.15/5.30 ( very difficult to put down, but unhappy anyways)
dinner - 6.15-6.30
bedtime - 7.15/7.30

He wakes up around 8 pm, 10.30 pm or 12.00 pm, 2.00 , 5.00 pm, sometimes more.
He will feed through the night mostly and wont resettle without at feed. Mostly I co-sleep
with him from 12.30 or 2 pm onwards due to exhaustion. Then goes into very light sleep from 6.00 - 7.15 mostly requiring patting or a constant feed during this time for him to stay asleep. Finally gets up for the day at around 7.15 am.

If I could please have some advice on how to adjust his routine as per his age so that he gets to nap longer...atleast 1.5 hrs and break the 45 min. nap cycle. Also I want to teach him how to sleep independently but I guess I dont want to introduce everything at once. Should I target independent sleep only at bedtime or one of the naps instead?? and then move on to other sleep times?? Right now I walk with him singing lullabies for a while till he is drowsy but awake , then transfer to crib and shush/pat in crib.

I dont want to tire him out with everything new together. What do you think? Many thanks!!

[KiusMum]

Was hoping someone would provide some insight...in really bad shape here

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry to hear you're having a tricky time, it sounds tiring with all that night feeding!

Was hoping someone would provide some insight...in really bad shape here

We generally check to ensure people get a response from the community within roughly 24hrs, it might be useful for you to know this so you don't think you've been missed. We are also all over the world so time zones can add a delay at times.

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
I would move directly to an A time of 3hrs. This would be suitable for a 6 month old so I'd start there. We can look at how things go over time and probably work out if a little additional time is needed, and where in the day it is needed (not all A times are necessarily the same throughout the day).  You are likely looking for two good naps or one longer and one shorter nap depending what your LO needs are (so no CN).

I would also suggest that you begin sleep training to teach independent sleep as soon as possible.  I would say that part of the difficulty with LO learning to self settle is because you are co sleeping and feeding to sleep throughout the night.

There is a description of a Gradual Wean here which you might like the look of:
Gentle Removal Plan
Or, as you are already successfully doing a wind down and putting LO down in the cot when awake but drowsy then soothing in the cot, you could move directly on to that for all sleeps including night.
With the longer A time you will likely have more success with W2S which is a great tool but will not force an UT LO to sleep well.  Remember not to use W2S every day, go in cycles, 3 days on 1 day off to observe, you don't want to get stuck patting in the cot for weeks on end, that isn't the idea.

Have a think and decide which way forward you'd like to go. There is support here for you as you go ahead.

[KiusMum]

HI creations,

Thank you so much for replying back..and my apologies for getting back so late. I had a bday party to host for DS1 and had no time to think about how sleep deprived AGAIN I am...

For the past 2 days I tried an A time of 2.5 to almost 3 hrs..it did not make any difference, still woke up at the 45 min. mark and had to resettle him, but he was up and awake and not very happy. Also he was v v tired by the time I put him down for the nap and fell asleep as soon as I sushed and sang his first lullaby, meaning I didnt even have the chance to have him relaxed, he was just too exhausted.

Yesterday he woke up somewhere between 6 and 6.30 am because of his elder brother , however I somehow managed to keep him "sort of asleep" by constant patting and intermittent feeding till about 7.23 am, when he got up for the day. He fell asleep for his first nap around 9.50 am and after a really long time slept for 1.5 HRS...yay...now I am not sure whether his A time is around 2.5 hrs or 3.5 hrs (starting from 6.30 AM? ), for the afternoon nap he was asleep by 1.5o pm, but had to be resettled after 45 min. mark. I couldnt resettle him and had to feed him, after which he slept till about 3.30 pm. He didnt do the catnap and bedtime was around 7.50 pm.

I have to say this, when he naps for longer..hes a very different baby...very happy and vocal and seems to enjoy his food more as well.

I will experiment with the A times a bit for a few more days and see how we go. Also I have started trying to teach him to self-settle, however at this stage, I cannot do it for all the naps and bedtime and all the NWs..it will be physically and mentally draining for me as I dont have much suport for this right now..Which is the best time to target first?? I was thinking I should aim for bedtime first and then maybe the naps? NWs ..maybe at the end..they are the hardest, cos hes very sleepy..never wakes up ...just cries with his eyes closed for a feed and falls back asleep pretty much after the feed or rather during it. What do you think? I can put him in his crib awake and calm now but I have to then sush, pat , sing or jiggle the crib till he falls ALMOST ASLEEP. I am trying to leave him to fall asleep on his own when hes in the final stages of his sleep.

Also I wanted to ask, is it ok for me to give him a top -up at around 10.30/11.00 like a dreamfeed?? He mostly wakes up anwyas during this time, however not sure if I am starting a new habit.

Once again thanku for replying...

[creations]

Hi
Being exhausted and going to sleep almost as soon as you put him in the cot is actually a really helpful thing.  It may seen like a very quick wind down to you but some LOs do better on a quick wind down anyway.  Part of his exhaustion may have been over stimulation from the birthday party if it was the same day.  It's also important to note that at this age (either real or adjusted) LOs are in a habit of going to sleep at a certain A time and will show tired signs and readiness for sleep at that time even if the A time is too short and it results in a short, UT, nap. It can take several days to get them used to staying awake and active for longer so that by the time they do nap it is a long and restorative nap. His mood is poor after a short nap because it is not restorative, the only way to help him is to keep that A time long enough, even if he looks tired.

I would continue at a minimum of 3hrs for now, not 2.5 this is too short even for a 6 months old really.  If after 3 days of a full 3hr A time he is still waking at 45 mins then increase to 3hr 15 and hold it for 3 days to see results. Watch the clock.  EASY is a flexible routine where LO is put to sleep a little earlier if they had a very physically or mentally active A time, visitors, parties etc, but when routines are being put in place it is more important to go by the clock for a few days.

I can put him in his crib awake and calm now but I have to then sush, pat , sing or jiggle the crib till he falls ALMOST ASLEEP

It seems to me you are getting very close to independence. The right A time could well get your another step closer too. So do hold out for 3 full hrs.
When your are soothing him in the cot just keep a mind to reducing. Intermittent pat/jiggle rather than solid patting/jiggle so it goes say jiggle jiggle, stop, jiggle jiggle stop etc. Then reduce again jiggle jiggle pause pause jiggle jiggle pause pause.  At the same time as he gets closer to sleep you can reduce the pressure of the jiggle so it is a half-jiggle, reduce until it is more of a light nudge pause pause nudge pause pause.  And after a couple of days of this reduction you will begin the WD the same into the cot the same with firm hand and full jiggling but reduce much more rapidly down to the nudge.  From here you are only a step away from stopping nudging before sleep. another step to lift your hand (on off on off) and another to completely be hands off for falling to sleep.

I cannot do it for all the naps and bedtime and all the NWs..it will be physically and mentally draining for me as I dont have much suport for this right now..Which is the best time to target first?? I was thinking I should aim for bedtime first and then maybe the naps?

If you are putting him in the cot and patting or jiggling anyway I'd really suggest your do all naps and BT because it really sounds to me like you are not far off. Doing it for all naps and BT will get results much much faster so you get to rest sooner. Doign one at a time you are likely looking at a longer period overall.  If you can't do all then I'd suggest one nap, the same nap every day not a different nap every day, call it nap 1, plus BT.

Also I wanted to ask, is it ok for me to give him a top -up at around 10.30/11.00 like a dreamfeed?? He mostly wakes up anwyas during this time, however not sure if I am starting a new habit.

Could be a growth spurt, with his adjust age I wouldn't be sure when GS would be expected. It's totally normal for a BF baby to have at least 1 if not 2 night feeds so BT, 10.30pm, plus 1 more would be expected.  Obviously you are currently feeding more at night as you are co sleeping and feeding to sleep - this can also effect independence sleeping and may mean that it takes longer overall.

hope this helps

[KiusMum]

Hi creations,

So good progress yesterday.. I believe...

WU - 7.30
S - 10.15-11.15 ( woke up at 45 min mark)
BF - 11.15
Lunch - 12.15
A - Till 2
S - 2.15 - 4 pm (woke up at 45 min mark)
BF - 4.15
Dinner & BF - 6.00 pm
BF and Bed time - 7.30 pm
1 NW - 10.30 pm
consequent NWs - 11.45pm, 1.30pm....
6.20 am - up for the day

For both the naps yesterday I put him in his crib calm and awake and then continued to pat his upper thigh and sing him a lullaby. While I do this, I am out of his sight, but I guess he knows I am there. He plays with his puppy which is in the crib, scratches the crib a bit, whines a bit more and then goes off into a mantra cry, fidgets a bit and then falls asleep. All this takes approx. 10 mins, once he is in the crib. Sometimes if hes over tired, then I jiggle the crib or might have to pick him up...but mostly it is ok. For both the naps, he woke up at the 45 min.mark. For the 1st one, I resettled him in the crib by jiggling the crib and then lay my hand on him, but he didnt sleep for more than 15 min. after I left the room, For the second nap, I got him out of the crib and patted him on my lap/shoulder and then put him back. He slept till 4 pm, so he got an almost 2 hr nap. Bedtime again self-soothed at around 7.30 pm, but he seemed v v exhausted by them and just drank a bit and went straight to sleep. Then woke @ 10.30 pm, drank a bit more and went back to bed. Then I guess around 11.30 pm, and I am not sure when and how many times after that. But he was either in my lap or next to me..cos I guess by then I had given up.

Can you please take a look at my routine and advise on feeding times and solid times?? He is on 3 solid meals a day and breastfeeds generally at 7.15 (once he wakes up), 11.00 ish, 3.00 pm ish, 5pm ish( he might have a snack here instead of a feed) , 7pm, 10.30 pm and then multiple times through the night. Breakfast is generally between 8.00- 8.30 am, lunch around 12 pm and dinner around 6 pm.

He is good with solids, but not good with breast feeds. He is very very distracted during the breast feeds and I have to make sure I dont have his dad or his elder brother around cos after a few sips he just wants to play. He is not a good bottle feeder either and I feel v v hurt that even though I have the milk and support he doesn't feed well from the breast. On an average he drinks 60-70 ml per breast feed, excluding the bedtime feed and the feeds during the night which he takes his time to feed. I keep worrying it is not enough for him.

My aim is to have atleast one good nap a day (1.5-2h) and as you said 1-2 feeds at night (10.30 pm and then around 2.30 - 3pm). I believe this is a reasonable expectation..what do you think? Sorry for the extra long post...

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry for the slight delay getting  back to you.
Looks like things are going in the right direction. That first A time I would increase to ensure it's a full 3hrs, chances are LO needs a bit more than this at this age to get a decent nap length.

Your milk and solids times in the day look okay. If anything I would bring dinner earlier if you can, LO tend to eat a bit better earlier on plus it leaves a longer gap between that solids meal and the last BF before BT so the BF can be a good one with LO hungry for it.

You said he drinks 60-70ml per BF, I assume you have expressed to see how much you get? It's been shown that LO is far more efficient at BF than when expressing so he likely gets more than you think.  In the BW book Tracy mentions a yield test, more recent research shows this is not an accurate prediction of how much LO gets so I would not rely on that method and just trust your LO is getting what he needs.
The night feeds and NWs are more likely to be habit/prop driven, so yes he does need a couple of those feeds but the multiple feeds are more likely a prop for sleep rather than hunger.  Some LOs take more at night, especially if they are distracted feeders in the day (but it can be a bit of a cycle with feeding more at night so not taking it in the day), perhaps you could post on the BF board for some specific advice on this.

[KiusMum]

Still struggling with NWs...past couple of days have got EWs as well at 5.30/6. I guess this is also due to the fact that we have pulled down the blinds in our room to get the window frame painted,so the room gets bright with the first light. I somehow managed to keep him asleep till about 7.15/7.20. So roughly EASY was

WU - 7.20
Nap1 - 10.05 - 11.15(Woke up at the 45 min mark, patted him in the crib)
Nap2-  2.15-3.45(again woke up @ 45 min mark but shussed him in the crib and he fell asleep)
BT - asleep by 7.50 pm yesterday and today at 7.30 pm
NW at 10.30,11.45, 2,3.30 ,...6.00

very tired with nws..i cant sush pat with so many of them..i end up co-sleeping and feeding...'could you please take a look at  my EASY and let me knw if the times look ok? is BT too far away from the second nap ? also at this age is 12 hr night apppropriate OR IS IT 11 hr night?

[creations]

Yes the A time between the second nap and BT is a bit too long but this will resolve by itself if you increase the first A time as I previously said, a minimum of 3hrs. With a longer first A and longer first nap it will take up more of the day meaning BT is easier to reach and the night is ok to be a touch shorter.
Mine never did 12hr nights until he was 2.5yrs old so it really depends on the LO but many who can/do do 12hr night sometimes have a shorter night for a while before one of the naps is reduced.  If your LO needs a routine closer to 6.5 months then two good naps are likely, if closer to 8+ months then one short and one longer nap might be suitable.  it looks like you could do with the 2 longer naps to me though.

WRT NWs, I'm afraid if you continue to co-sleep and feed to sleep as a prop at night then LO will contionue to expect this. This situation isn't going to change suddenly on it's own, if you want the NWs and additional NFs to stop then it's up to you to stop them.  did you read the gentle removal plan link I gave you?  What did you think?
We don't support co-sleeping on BW forums as it is not a BW method and is against SIDS guides but there will be support and hand holding to help you get LO into her own bed when you are ready to make that happen.