4 month old: very short naps, snacking, night waking

[N_Mom_S]

Hi everyone! First of all, I’ve been reading this forum for some time and there are really good tips in here, thanks everyone for your wisdom!!!

I need to address a variety of problems with my 4 month old. We’re dealing with some but I don’t know in which order I should do it!

My son is a short napper. His naps go from 30 min to 45 min, sometimes wake to sleep works (not lately), and very occasionally he sleeps longer naps (1.5-2h). Sometimes he wakes up happy, when he doesn’t we try shush pat but he usually doesn’t go back to sleep. We’re doing the EASY and his awake time is around 90-100min, that means I always end up feeding him every 2-2.5 hours and I’m pretty sure he’s got into the habit of snacking. We’ve been rocking him to sleep for naps and we want to eliminate that (he’s getting heavy and my back is killing me!!), so we’ve tried the 4S (kind of) combined with shush pat. This is what we do: I start by reading a board book (the same one all the time), start singing a lullaby,  put him in his sleeping sack because he’s too old to be swaddled (here’s when he starts to realise he’s going to sleep and starts complaining or crying), pull down the blinds, sit on the edge of the bed and start bouncing until he gets quiet, when he does I sit there still but he usually complains again so I have to bounce until he’s really sleepy. Then, I put him in the crib, usually eyes closed, sometimes he opens them a little bit but goes to sleep. Sometimes he wakes up completely and I do the shush pat or grab him from his bottom and shake him a bit (this has worked better than the shush pat lately). Sometimes that doesn’t work without the pacifier. And sometimes he gets so mad I have to pick him up and start all over again, but he usually falls asleep as soon as I pick him up and start bouncing. I would like to eliminate the bouncing but just sitting makes him really mad!

Apart from that, he wakes up several times during the night, usually 3-4 feedings (sometimes including dreamfeed) and a couple times more when we have to rock him to sleep (many times it’s due to gas).
Bedtime routine: diaper change, same board book, put him in his sack, pray, breast, hold him for 20min (he has silent reflux, so I have to do this after every night feeding). Sometimes the breast doesn’t put him to sleep and I have to rock him afterwards.
Twice a week we give him a bath before the routine.

My questions are:

Am I doing it OK?
Is he going to be able to sleep on his own eventually without modifying this method? (apart from the breast at night, I’m OK with that but I would like to know if it hinders his ability to go to sleep by himself in other moments)
How can I avoid snacking with such short naps? Should I keep trying to extend his naps?
He’s 4 months and 1 week and I read that between 4m-5.5m is more difficult to sleep train, is that true?

Here’s our EASY, it’s approximate because it all depends on how long he naps, so at the end of the day it may vary up to an hour. It’s been a bit messed up since daylight savings but I’m trying to go back to it.


Wake up 8:15
E 8:30
A 8:15-10:00
S 10:00-10:40

E 11:00
A 10:40-12:20
S 12:20-1:00

E1:15
A 1:00-2:30
S 2:30-3:10

E 3:30
A 3:10-4:45
S 4:45-5:20

By this time it’s when it starts to vary the most, because if it’s late I don’t want him to nap so he usually gets overtired and I feed him sooner, and sometimes he naps and I feed him later:
E 6:00
A 5:20-7:00
Start bedtime routine, asleep sometimes at 7:30, 8, 8:30

Any input or advice will be appreciated!!!

[lauradj]

Hi there and welcome!

  There are a couple of things I can suggest.  It sounds like your LO may not be tired when you want to lay him down.  Most babies his age are awake for 1hr 45min-2hrs, so why don't you try to push for another 15 minutes to bring it up to 2hr of A time?  I think that will help quite a bit.  The other thing I might suggest is cutting out the bouncing on the bed etc that occurs after you've put him in his sleep sack.  I would do the story, a lullaby, into the sleep sack and into bed.  A gentle "Sleep tight, I love you" and out you go.  Give him a chance to settle himself to sleep instead of trying to do it for him.
Regarding the feedings, whenever my boys awoke earlier I just delayed feeding them until it was closer to their feeding time.  Sometimes I ended up feeding them right before they went down for their next nap but I just made sure I didn't feed them to sleep and it all worked out.  4 months is prime time to hit a sleep regression, so don't be disheartened. 

[N_Mom_S]

Hi there and welcome!

  There are a couple of things I can suggest.  It sounds like your LO may not be tired when you want to lay him down.  Most babies his age are awake for 1hr 45min-2hrs, so why don't you try to push for another 15 minutes to bring it up to 2hr of A time?  I think that will help quite a bit.  The other thing I might suggest is cutting out the bouncing on the bed etc that occurs after you've put him in his sleep sack.  I would do the story, a lullaby, into the sleep sack and into bed.  A gentle "Sleep tight, I love you" and out you go.  Give him a chance to settle himself to sleep instead of trying to do it for him.
Regarding the feedings, whenever my boys awoke earlier I just delayed feeding them until it was closer to their feeding time.  Sometimes I ended up feeding them right before they went down for their next nap but I just made sure I didn't feed them to sleep and it all worked out.  4 months is prime time to hit a sleep regression, so don't be disheartened. 

Thank you for your answer!

I had tried before to put him down without the bouncing and give him a chance, but he always ended up crying. I've tried again today since you suggested it, without luck again. He complained for about 5 minutes and then started crying, and as his crying escalated I had to pick him up. I'm not comfortable doing 'cry it out', but I don't think that's what you suggested.

As for the awake time, sometimes he does fine with a bit more, but sometimes he gets really overtired and it's much more difficult to put him down so I really have to pay attention to his cues. He's been able to go 2 hours some evenings, when he sometimes skips his nap.

And for the feedings I usually try to do what you said, but if all his naps are short there's no way I can delay it more unless he sleeps two naps without eating, which seems pretty impossible with this baby!

I don't know if he's in the 4 month sleep regression or not, he's always been this difficult regarding sleep...

[lindsyhoward]

Hi! I am having the same issues with my 4 month old! He has always been this way also... His dr. said to work on getting him to eat every 3 hours, to eliminate the snacking issue. I hand finally gotten him there but it took some time. I've found that he will nap in his swing if I put it on all the way up and then walk away so that he can't see me, but I can still see him of course. I know it's not ideal, but it's the only way I can get him to nap for 1.5-2 hr. We have the swing that goes side to side. The dr. said the extend his feedings by about 15 minutes until we were at 3 hours. I also found that with my little one, he gave hunger signs for other reasons. For example, when he gets overtired he acts like he is hungry because he wants the comfort of nursing. When I realized this it made it much easier to have him go to 3 hours between feeds. I would love to chat more, it sounds like our little ones are SO similar!! I have all the exact same issues with mine!

[lauradj]

Ok, in that case I would suggest you try using Shhh-Pat instead of the bouncing.  It's a far easy technique to wean baby off of and it allows him to be lying in his crib. He will very likely cry, as you're asking him to change the way he goes to sleep and crying is his only means of communication with you.  He's saying "Hey Mom, this is not how I take my naps!".  You're not leaving him to cry alone, feeling abandoned, BW is very much against that.  You're right there, with a gentle hand and a soothing voice, showing him he can fall asleep without all the props.  If you want this technique to be successful, you have to be consistent.  You need to use it each time he struggles to fall asleep, if he wakes early etc. Tracy suggests moving to PU/PD at this age but I don't think you're LO is ready for that and because his schedule is a little messy right now, I think Shh-Pat is your best bet.  I've attached the link below.
 
Shush-pat - How to

If 2hrs isn't doable, stick with the 1hr 45minutes until we get him napping longer, then I think he'll be ready for a bit of a push.

[N_Mom_S]

Hi! I am having the same issues with my 4 month old! He has always been this way also... His dr. said to work on getting him to eat every 3 hours, to eliminate the snacking issue. I hand finally gotten him there but it took some time. I've found that he will nap in his swing if I put it on all the way up and then walk away so that he can't see me, but I can still see him of course. I know it's not ideal, but it's the only way I can get him to nap for 1.5-2 hr. We have the swing that goes side to side. The dr. said the extend his feedings by about 15 minutes until we were at 3 hours. I also found that with my little one, he gave hunger signs for other reasons. For example, when he gets overtired he acts like he is hungry because he wants the comfort of nursing. When I realized this it made it much easier to have him go to 3 hours between feeds. I would love to chat more, it sounds like our little ones are SO similar!! I have all the exact same issues with mine!

Hi! Glad to hear I'm not alone! I used the swing a lot for the first 2 1/2 months due to colic/reflux, I'm trying not to go back to old habits!!! haha
I would love to chat more too, I'll send you a message!

[N_Mom_S]

Ok, in that case I would suggest you try using Shhh-Pat instead of the bouncing.  It's a far easy technique to wean baby off of and it allows him to be lying in his crib. He will very likely cry, as you're asking him to change the way he goes to sleep and crying is his only means of communication with you.  He's saying "Hey Mom, this is not how I take my naps!".  You're not leaving him to cry alone, feeling abandoned, BW is very much against that.  You're right there, with a gentle hand and a soothing voice, showing him he can fall asleep without all the props.  If you want this technique to be successful, you have to be consistent.  You need to use it each time he struggles to fall asleep, if he wakes early etc. Tracy suggests moving to PU/PD at this age but I don't think you're LO is ready for that and because his schedule is a little messy right now, I think Shh-Pat is your best bet.  I've attached the link below.
 
Shush-pat - How to

If 2hrs isn't doable, stick with the 1hr 45minutes until we get him napping longer, then I think he'll be ready for a bit of a push.

Thanks for your help! We tried shhh pat instead of bouncing today, such horrible 45 minutes! My husband and I took turns. LO screamed all the time as if it were the end of the world. I'm not sure if we did the picking up correctly, since he was crying all the time it looked more like a 'cry it out' but with us there. As soon as we picked him up he stopped crying (although sometimes he started again), but we would have been picking him up and putting him down all the time so we just did it mostly in the crib despite the crying. In the end, he fell asleep out of tiredness while I was picking him up. I have to mention that we were using white noise at the same time (we always use it with him), I don't know if that can affect the shhh pat or not. So, is this normal? It felt really bad and I don't think my husband wants to try again, LO was miserable Should we change to PU/PD? We tried it some time ago but he was also miserable so we stopped.

[N_Mom_S]

The second nap was way better!! I read the thread about successful shh pat stories and the key was a REALLY loud shhhh. I couldn't have done it louder! That really distracted him from crying, and this time he fell asleep after 20 minutes

Also, today we've been pushing up to two hours of awake time and it has worked, he wasn't very cranky! I did wake to sleep for the first nap and it worked (1.5h) and tried it for the second one but it didn't (45m). Should I only work on extending the first nap for some time, especially with those many changes I'm doing at the same time?

And how many feedings should I aim for at night? He ate 3 times last night (every 3h more or less), and another time we had to rock him back to sleep. Should I wait to see how the improving naps (hopefully) work on the nighttime feedings or should I work on that too?

[lauradj]

Yup, you really have to Shhhhh louder then they are crying and it's like a switch, they just stop crying.  I should also mention that it's best for baby if it's just one of you doing it for each nap.  If you switch off halfway through, it's like a new stimulant to them and they get ramped up all over.  Regarding the night feedings, if he's waking out of hunger, feed him.  I know it's exhausting but he's still so young, he needs all those calories.  3x a night is really typical at this age. 
That's great that the 2hr A time is helping.  With DS1, I found he needed a shorter A time in the morning and a longer in the afternoon, whereas DS2 is the exact opposite; he fairs better in the morning.  It sounds like you're guy is the same so follow his lead on that one. It's very normal. 

[N_Mom_S]

OK, thanks!

Today's shhh pat times until asleep (for naps) were 10min, 5min, 10min, and 20min (I was a bit discouraged in this one).

I also think he needs a shorter awake time in the evenings!

These are the past two days' EASYs, I'd love some input on them! It's getting better but it's still a bit of a mess.

April 3rd
7:40 Wake up
8:45 E
10:05 sh pat, asleep at 10:45
10:45-12:20 S (1h35 with wake to sleep)
12:30 E
14:10 sh pat, asleep at 14:35
14:35-15:20 S (45m, tried wake to sleep)
4:00 E
5:25-5:50 stroller  25m catnap
6:10 E
7:20 (after 1h30 awake time he started to get fussy at church)
7:50-8:15 stroller 25m catnap
8:30 start bedtime routine & breastfeed, asleep by 9:00


April 4th
8:00 Wake up
8:45 E
10:00 sh pat until 10:10
10:10-12:15 S (2:05 with wake to sleep, I woke him up after 2 hours)
12:25 E
2:20-2:25 sh pat
2:25-3:00 S (35m, tried wake to sleep)
3:30 E
4:30 sh pat until 4:40
4:40-5:25 S (45m)
5:30 E
7:15 sh pat until 7:35
7:35-8:05 S (30m, I woke him up)
8:30 start bedtime routine & breastfeed, asleep by 9:15

[lauradj]

Yes, many babies need their shortest A time to be the last one.  They're just so exhausted from the whole day, some can only tolerate an hour to an hour and a half. 
I noticed that your LO is getting 4 naps a day?  At this age, most babies are getting 3 naps a day.  What I would suggest is you bring bed time up substantially.  If you're baby is waking at 7am, 7pm should be your aim for bed time at the latest.  Some babies can handle a 13-14 hour day but most have a limit of 12hrs.  It doesn't sound like much to an adult but it's a lot for a baby. 

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you! Yes, he has 4 because wake to sleep only worked in the first one, I'll try today again in all of them. Should I shhh pat when he wakes up after any of them if only the first wake to sleep works?

He usually wakes up at around 8am (and that's my aim), so usually I've been putting him down at around 8pm, although these past 2 days I started at 8:30pm because he had woken up earlier than 8am, so I thought a later bedtime would fix that. Yesterday he woke up at 8am after going down at 9pm, but today he woke up too late, at 8:45am, after going down at 9:15pm yesterday. So I'm a bit confused because it's not very consistent...

[N_Mom_S]

Also, are there any guidelines regarding how long I should do the shh pat until deep sleep, when to start doing it only until he's asleep and when to leave him alone without the shh pat? I guess it's trial and error with each baby but I'm worried about doing it too early or too late and mess up all that work!

And the same for wake to sleep, when can I stop doing it?

And I've noticed very clear times for his night wakings: 00:00, 3:00, 6:00. I feed him at those three and if he wakes up at any other moment I do shhh pat. Could they be (or become) habitual wakings?

[lauradj]

Lots of parents think that if they put their kids to bed later, they will sleep later but that is seldom the case.  In fact, most babies sleep longer if they're put to bed earlier.
It's important that you give your baby a chance to try and settle on their own first.  Some babies, my second for example, prefer to fall asleep on their own and do not appreciate parental help.  With both my boys I would set my stopwatch and give them 20-30 minutes to settle themselves to sleep.  If they were merely fussing and grunting about, I left them to it.  If they started crying, I would go and help them.  What you need to differentiate it the mantra cry from the 'I need you!' cry.  It took me awhile with my first.  I should also mention that at night time, let your baby just fall asleep on the bottle or breast if he chooses.  That would be the ideal.  Obviously there is no A time at night 
The NW's may be habitual but they might just be when he's hungry.  Both my boys tended to wake around 1am and 3am, pretty consistently and then one day they just dropped to one feed and then all done.  The times varied enough, by 30 mins or so, that I wasn't super concerned.  I've attached a few links below for you to check out as well.

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Shush-pat - How to
Teaching Sleep to Babies of 3-5 months (and the 45 min nap)

[N_Mom_S]

It got worse Shh pat isn't working anymore to put him down for naps, he starts to get mad as soon as he sees it's coming! It only works to extend naps now.

This was yesterday's EASY, I got the 3 naps you suggested though, that was a success:

8:45 WU
9:20 E
10:40-12:20 S (shh pat 1min!) 1h40
1:05 E
2:20-3:55 S (shhh pat 5min) 1h35
4:30 E
6:10-6:50 (shhh pat 35min) 40m
7:40 bedtime routine & breastfeed, he didn't fall asleep at the breast and shh pat didn't work. Eat again at 9:00, asleep at the breast by 9:15

Then, from 11pm he woke up basically every hour and shh pat only got him madder (I fed him every 2-2.5h). In the morning I even had to take him to our bed. And today's shh pats have been even worse, I had to resort to rocking very softly and within 10 seconds he was out

I tried to give him the change to self settle but the mantra cry became a real cry very quickly

[N_Mom_S]

After a terrible day and a half, today it got a bit better. I'm thinking it may have been the one bottle of formula we decided to give him that day. Last night was still pretty bad, he woke up crying almost every hour again. And he woke up happy at around 5am; I've noticed the same thing other times when he had pretty good naps during the day. He wasn't hungry or in pain but shhh pat didn't work so I had to feed him to sleep.
Today's shh pat times were 13m, 5m, 25m, the last one is still very difficult, he screams until he's too tired to continue. I'm wondering if he may be OT, I'm going to try 1h30 A time before that nap (before the other two naps his 2h A time is fine). And I've been trying to set an earlier bedtime but so far it hasn't worked, we'll see if it works tonight.
What do you think about taking that last catnap in the stroller? Would that help or quite the opposite?

[lauradj]

I often did the CN in a baby carrier or stroller.  As they get older they start to fight it, even though they usually still need it so do whatever it takes to make it happen. 
Honestly, I think 2hrs is working but you have to remember that he's going to fight any change because he doesn't understand exactly what's going on.  I'm really glad you were able to get him down to 3 naps.  If you can be consistent and stick with the 2hrs of A time, and thus the 3 naps, I think you'll see an improvement within a week. 

[N_Mom_S]

I often did the CN in a baby carrier or stroller.  As they get older they start to fight it, even though they usually still need it so do whatever it takes to make it happen. 
Honestly, I think 2hrs is working but you have to remember that he's going to fight any change because he doesn't understand exactly what's going on.  I'm really glad you were able to get him down to 3 naps.  If you can be consistent and stick with the 2hrs of A time, and thus the 3 naps, I think you'll see an improvement within a week. 

Thank you so much for all your help!!! It's a blessing that you experienced mothers take time to help first timers like me!
Last night he was down by 8:15 and it was much better: DF at 11:00, E at 1:50, the happy waking happened an hour earlier, as the bedtime (4:15, 8h after bedtime again) and I had to feed him even if he wasn't hungry, he was super awake. I put him down in the crib and he almost self-soothed! He was quiet for a while, then he cried and within 30 seconds of shhh pat he was out That's huge for us!!! And this morning I woke him up at 9:00, he was almost awake.
So I'll try to keep up with yesterday's schedule and watch closely his cues before the CN, to see if 1h30 is needed. He's usually crankier in the evenings so that may be why 2h is too much, we'll see.
Now I'm moving to the night wakings forum to see that happy waking sorted out! haha

[lauradj]

That's great!!  I'm so glad you're seeing an improvement.  It's hard when they're young because their A times change so quickly but it really does make an enormous difference with minimal intervention from Mom and Dad!