Shh pat is hard, please help!

[oofy2016]

Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me.

My daughter is 4 3/4 months, 5 months next week. I have always fed to sleep and am trying to break the association. Feeding to sleep was fine for me but meant I needed my husbands help to get her into bed every time so when he wasn't around I co-slept. She generally woke every two hours overnight and took an hour to feed to sleep and it's not really sustainable so I started shh par on Friday afternoon (today is Sunday).
It seems to be working initially it took half an hour and she was on my shoulder the whole time and then another 20 mins quiet in the crib. This morning it took 15 mins in the crib with her grumbling/crying but not hard.
I've got a few questions though as I'm feeding like a mean mum. I really don't believe in crying and have tried the no cry sleep solution but to be honest it was taking too long and we were desperate for sleep.

The first is, should they cry when I do the shh pat, and for how long. Sometimes on my shoulder she really howls, but does settle down after about ten minutes. Is it ok for her to cry in the crib for 5 mins if it's not hard crying or should I pick her up straight away.
Also, is 4.5/5 months too old to start with shh pat? I read somewhere that you need to do it under 3 months, but it seems to be working. I previously tried pu/pd and it was a nightmare she cried so hard it felt like cio to me and I had to stop after 20 mins.
She seems to settle better with me than my husband. Does this work better if done by one person to start with?
I also have some questions about consistency. Does this mean so shh pat for EVERY sleep, or just when you start, don't give up, that I have to see it through?
Also, is it ok to do this consistently overnight until she wakes at 6 and then bring her into bed with me for an hour to feed until we get up? I think if I re-started shh pat at 6 it's too close to morning for it to work again.
In a similar vein, I often go for a walk at lunchtime. With daytime naps can I do shh pat for the first one and then sling for the second? It would be a major change to my lifestyle to be at home for all 3 naps!!
What counts as a 'catnap' and do I do shh pat for this too or can this be anywhere/anyhow? I'm a bit confused about why the third nap is called a catnap. Can I do this with her asleep on me?

I realise I have a lot of questions, but I'm finding shh pat very hard and I need to know I'm doing it right and going in the right direction or I might give up!

Thank so much for any advice.

Jess x

[jessmum46]

Hi Jess and welcome to the boards

I think it may help you to think of crying as a form of communication - after all that's all your LO can really do right now. We are totally with you that we don't believe in leaving a LO to cry without a response, but crying with you there is a very different thing. It's more of a conversation - hey mum, I'm tired, why can't I get to sleep? (You) shhhh it's ok, I'm here, you're safe, it's ok to relax etc etc. So yes crying whilst doing shh pat is to be expected but only because she's telling you 'hey, this isn't how we do it!' - not because she's scared or abandoned.  It's hard to hear them cry and natural to want to make it better, but when we focus entirely on getting the crying to stop that's like telling a friend who is pouring their heart out to you to be quiet and stop talking about it. Does that kind of make sense?

Her age is fine for shh pat PUPD is really only meant to be used as a last resort rather than as the first option so sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing.

You and your husband can both be involved, it doesn't have to just be one of you. The only time you wouldn't switch is mid-settling. But if it works better for you to do it for now then your DH the get involved when she is more used to it, that's fine too. Just make sure you are both doing it the same way.

I'll get back to you later with some more answers - just got my LOs to attend to!

[jessmum46]

OK I'm back - sorry about the delay

In terms of consistency, you will likely see results quicker if you do use shh pat for each nap and nights, that just gives her more chances to practice.  But what a lot of people do at this age is to do the 'main' naps at home in the crib and then the 'catnap' (= a short nap, usually no more than one sleep cycle i.e. 45 minutes whereas a 'full' nap would be 2 or more sleep cycles i.e. 1h30 or more) out and about in a sling or pram etc.  If it works for you to always do nap 1 at home, nap 2 in the sling and nap 3 in another way that's ok too, others on here have found that their LOs have got used to doing certain naps in a particular way.  I'd just expect it may take a bit longer to get shh pat and independent sleep going in that case, but not impossible.

The 6am thing is up to you   Lots of people really cherish those early morning feeds and cuddles so if it suits you to do that then that is fine.  It's worth bearing in mind that if she gets used to it it may become a habit you need to deal with at some point in the future (if it no longer suits you) but that can be dealt with when and if you feel it has become a problem.

Just one more thing - you may see much more success if the routine is right   Did you want to post a typical daytime for us in EAS format so we can see if there's anything there you could try changing to make some more progress?

[oofy2016]

Hi Jessmum,

Thanks so much for the reply and the welcome. I feel better about the crying already. That's a much better way of thinking about it. Tonight we went straight for the crib and she was really drowsy and pretty much went off straight away, so I shh patted for fifteen mins and I'm hoping she now stays asleep. It's much easier in the crib than on my shoulder so I'm hoping we can do this from now on.

I also wondered (in addition to my multitude of questions below!) is it ok to feed to drowsy and put her down, or is it best to keep her fully awake and then put her down and shh pat from there? I was thinking of doing the following routine: bath, feed, book, sleep, but tonight she was so drowsy feeding I couldn't keep her awake and skipped he book so she went down drowsy, but it seemed counter intuitive to fully wake her up to put her back to sleep -  But am I meant to do this?

I'm glad she is the right age. I actually spoke to a sleep consultant a while  ago who told me we had a lost cause and pu/pd was the only way- she was only 10 weeks so it ended up being a nightmare for everyone and I gave up on sleep training until hearing about shh pat last week.

Thanks so much for the explanation and support. I can't tell u how much it means in the dead of night when trying something new!

Jess

[jessmum46]

Oh bless you!  I'm sorry you had such a bad time with PUPD, it can be a really useful sleep training tool but I agree at 10 weeks would have been much too stimulating and not the right way for most babies. 

Well done for bedtime tonight!  It does get easier, I promise   I think to begin with having her drowsy is ok, the ultimate aim is to put her down fully awake and have her settle herself but you can take small steps towards that at a pace you are both comfortable with.  I certainly remember with DD in the earlier days she would feed until pretty much asleep but then just stir enough to wriggle and put her thumb in as I put her down in bed.  As she got older and more aware then she didn't fall asleep quite so often and it became more natural to put her down awake xx

Edited to add - please ask as many questions as you like!  We're all Mums too who were helped by other Mums on this board before we decided to stick around

[oofy2016]

Hi,

Thanks so much for the extra information. After a really good start, im having a really rubbish day today. She woke at 5 and then shh pat failed me for the first time....I couldn't get her back to sleep, I shh patted for about an hour.
I fed her and tried again about 8. I got about 20 mins and then she woke up crying. I tried shh pay again to carry the nap on, but again, it didn't work. I got up and showered and played with her for an hour and a half and then tried again. Again, she got sleepy but kept jolting awake. I was patting with my left hand and holding her arm down with my other hand but she still woke up.
She's had a total of about an hours sleep today, only while I'm  actually patting.
I've given up a bit but now she is so OT I can't even feed her to sleep or sling walk her.
Is this normal?
I'm so tired I don't know if I can face doing it again. I'm also pumping 7 times a day to increase my milk to help her weight.

Will post my routine when I can get on the computer as its a bit fiddly on my phone, but she has had low weight gain so it's essentially been EAES and i really watch her aWake times carefully.

Thanks for any advice. She so tired now she has bags under her eyes!

Jess

[oofy2016]

Hi, also...should it be dark in the room for naps, or light as it is daytime?

Thanks!

Jess

[jessmum46]

Hugs for the rough day it happens even to the most perfect of babies, we've all been there! Hope today is better

My two always slept better in the dark for nap time - less distracting I think.  But that's up to you really and what suits your LO x

[oofy2016]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I think we are making (slow) progress. Overnight, bt and first nap of the day are relatively predictable ( hopefully I've not just jinxed my night tonight!). We still get 3-4 wake ups but settling is improving. Previously it's taken myself and my husband to settle, now I can do it all on my own, which gives him a break.

I have 2 major issues continuing and I'm hoping someone can help.
The first is that I'm finding that I do the wind down for the first nap, or our bed time routine and then I feed. I really really struggle not to let her fall at least partly asleep on the boob. I tickle her feet, talk to her, blow in her face, she just falls asleep. She always opens her eyes and looks around when I stand up at the end of the feed and always opens her eyes as she goes into the crib. Is this ok? Do you have any advice on how to handle this as I imagine you want her more awake to learn to self settle properly. Should I wake her up and read her a story? I'm scared to wake her up as it might really stimulate her and make her cry more in the settling process/wind her up.

The second question is that I'm really struggling with shh pat for the second and third naps today. My second nap she just lay there for an hour and a half looking at me (I kept my eyes averted to avoid eye contact) and eventually grumbled and cried but no sleep. I was exhausted up gave up.

I usually keep her awake time to 2 hours and this worked perfectly for the first nap. Do you think she is chronically OT and nap resistant?

My daytime routine is as follows:

E up at 6.45-7
A 7.15 in swing while I shower, then bouncy chair, then play gym then quieter floor time
S 9-11 in crib after shh pat
E 11-11.15
A 11.15 songs, play gym, jumperoo, playmat then story and quiet time on floor
S 12.30 ATTEMPTED shh pat for 1hr 30 no success
E 2.00 quiet feed
A 2.15 walk round garden in sling, quiet floor time (but lots of rolling)
S 4.00 fed to sleep on me as I was worried she wouldn't nap again before bed.
E 4.45
A 5.00 floor time with toys, singing, play gym
E 6.00
A 6.30 bath, 4S WIND DOWN
E 7.00 takes a long time as keeps falling asleep
S 7.45 shh pat 8.30 actually asleep

I've just realised how bad my easy looks. There are a lot more E's  in there as my LO has had slow weight gain since birth and refuses a bottle (any tips welcome) so I feed on demand and as much as possible through the day. She gets hungry quickly but her feeds aren't efficient and we have just found out that her tongue tie, which was snipped at 3 weeks, has reformed.
I'm seeing a paediatrician tomorrow for the weight issue, she also has eczema so I've gone dairy free.

Please help! My biggest concern is the fact I struggle with the second two naps- she's been really OT the last 2 afternoons.

Thanks so much for your help.

J

[jessmum46]

The feed before bed followed by going down drowsy but eyes open sounds fine.  We did the same then gradually introduced a story from 6 months or so. At first we read during the feed, then literally a few seconds extra at the end, then just gradually shifted so it became feed then story.  Baby steps

I think your routine issue is probably UT, leading to OT. At her age 2h A time is on the shorter end of average, up to 2.5h would be fine for some babies.  You actually only put her down after 1.5h A for her second nap . Given her first nap was 2h I can't imagine she was at all tired hence she didn't settle. I wouldn't even start trying to put down until 2h after a good nap.  Wind down really doesn't need to be long - I would take mine into their rooms, into sleeping bag, dim lights, quick song then down into cot.  Light off and leave. You don't need to shh pat at all unless she is upset - if she is content then just leave her to it

Oh and for your own sake - don't shh pat for an hour and a half, you'll go mad! Tracy said try for 45 mins max. Honestly I'd say if she's clearly not settling at all in 15-20 mins (esp after a short A time) get her up, at for 15 mins or so then try again later x

[oofy2016]

Thanks for the advice.

We have had a really rough week or so here, and ended up in hospital for three days. It means our sleep has totally gone to pot.  :-(
She is still a little poorly and is on antibiotics....but relatively perky in herself but is now waking every 1.5-2 hours overnight and I am shattered.
I need to restart shh pat. Please can someone give me some guidance on how to handle this with a mildly poorly baby, do I just start again shh patting as before in the crib and work it from there?

On another note, does anyone know if there are recommended night nannies who specialise in shh pat who might be able to help me? I really want to help her sleep as I think it will help her feel better and gain weight but I'm desperately tired and as we can't get her on the bottle I could really do with some help. For some reason dh can't help with the shh patting. She always wakes up and ends up distraught when he does it....
I spoke to a night nanny yesterday but at this age she only does cio and I really don't want to resort to that.

Thanks so much for any advice.
Feeling a bit OT and desperate myself.

Thanks

[jessmum46]

So sorry your little one has been unwell . I would wait until she is totally better before trying any sleep training, it's not really fair on either of you right now give her snuggles and reassurance and then see where things lie once she is better.  Even if DH can't shh pat I'm guessing he could hold or cuddle her for a while and give you a bit of a rest so you can both catch up? 

When she's better why not start afresh and just observe for a couple of days to see when she seems to be sleepy/hungry etc and log your days in an EAS format.  Post it here when you've got it and we'll help you with a plan to get restarted.  It may be that in the midst of illness she's also hit a time where her routine needs a shake-up (5-6 months is a classic time for some big A time leaps and the 3-2 starting) and some small adjustments could make shh pat much easier.  Shh pat will only work with an appropriate routine, and we are more than happy to help with that

We don't recommend any particular nannies, all I would say is if you go that route look very carefully at their methods as many will dress up forms of CIO/CC as something else.  You need to find someone who is a good fit for you and trust your instincts x

[oofy2016]

Thank you for all the help and support on here. We are now on the track to normality. Daughter has been diagnosed with cows milk allergy (on skin prick test) and soy allergy. Since cutting these out her weight has jumped up the centiles a bit and I am much happier.
As we were concerned about her weight I do feed frequently and have fed to sleep when she wakes overnight.
She is still waking every 3.5-1.5 hours overnight and I would like to try to get more sleep without too much crying. I have gone back to napping her in the sling and feeding to sleep since being in hospital so we are starting from there.
I exclusively breastfeed and she does not take a bottle.
She is 6.5 months old and I struggle to get 3 naps in anymore. Our days generally look like yesterday, which was like this:
7 am up and big feed
8 am offer solids
8.30-10.30 activity on play mat
11 am sleep in sling until 12.45
1pm breastfeed
1.30-3.15 activity on play mat
3.15-3.30 breastfeed
3.30-5 sleep in sling (walk to sleep)
5.30 breastfeed
6 solids
6.30 bath
7pm feed to sleep (sometimes takes 45 mins, sometimes takes until 1.5hours)
Wakes to feed after 2.45 hours, then 1.5 hourly thereafter. Offered boob and feeds to sleep at each waking in 10 minutes.
I would like to start shh pat again but am nervous that she is going to cry a lot as I have half heartedly tried it a few times and she has rolled over a lot and cried really hard, meaning I give up and feed to sleep.
Any routine/sleep help is greatly appreciated, I feel a bit lost with where to start from where we are.
Thank you.
J

[jessmum46]

I'm glad you have managed to get a diagnosis, though sorry she has been suffering

Looking at your routine I notice that first A time is really quite long for her age, 3 hours or just over would be more typical.  I wonder if that is setting you up for an overtired loop?  Her nap times are a decent length but I do just wonder if she is crashing more than getting a proper rested nap?  And then I would imagine you are having difficulty getting her to settle at bedtime as the last A is rather on the short side.  I'd be tempted to bring the morning nap earlier to around 10am, maybe 10.15 (you'll have to experiment) and then see if you can get her afternoon nap finishing by 4pm ish for a 7pm bedtime.  What do you think?

Does she have reflux along with her allergies?  Just wondering if there could be ongoing discomfort to explain such frequent wakings?

Assuming it is a sleep prop issue though - is shh pat what you were hoping to try first?  Do you have any help or will it be you doing all the settling?  Just asking as breaking feed-to-sleep can be hard work, especially when they can smell Mummy!  But it is do-able, just helps to know

[oofy2016]

Thank you for the advice. I will try changing the times and see how I get on tomorrow. :-)

What I really need is some advice about how to stop feeding to sleep and get her settling better as I believe this might make the difference to our current sleep situation - is this right?
I am seeing the doctor in 2 weeks so will ask about reflux when I next see him. I have asked before but he didn't really comment properly, just said he would take it into consideration.

Is she likely to sleep better and longer if I can break the feeding to sleep cycle?

I think I'm going to end up doing this alone, but I can ask my hubby and see what he says.

:-( we have had a disaster bed time tonight and I'm still trying to settle her after almost 2 hours. She never seems to sleep without immense effort from me, it's soooo hard. I really don't want to let her cry or go the cry it out route, but last time I tried shh pat I ended up spending days on end alone at home shh patting (while she cried really hard) and not really getting anywhere, so would really appreciate finding out how to to get our routine and bed times sorted without letting her cry, without losing the little bit of social life I have to have to keep me sane. I understand routines are important, but if I don't get out the house once a day I get really down.
She also seems to be still waking every 2 hours so I'm permanently fairly exhausted.
Her weight is better, but I am still trying to get as many calories as possible into her, so am reluctant to cut out feeds unless she drops them naturally.
Sorry if this rambles a bit, I am just so tired! I seem to be the only one with a 6 month old getting this little sleep, and not consistently able to settle my baby easily.
I tried shh pat last night but she got really worked up so I ended up just holding her and shh img while she cried, but she cried so hard it was horrible, it felt like cio. :-(
Thank you in advance for any advice.
J x x x x