Shh pat is hard, please help!

[jessmum46]

Yes if she can settle alone without needing to feed to sleep, the idea is she should sleep better as she won't need you every time she stirs.

To stop feeding to sleep you kind of just need to stop feeding to sleep....sorry that sounds a bit silly but it really is a case of stopping the prop and persisting with something else.  You may find this helpful as a gentle way of doing it: Gentle Removal Plan

Shh pat or PUPD will only work well with an appropriate routine - if it was taking hours for days on end the most common reasons for that are wrong routine or lack of consistency (eg going for ages then 'giving in' and using the props).  I'm not suggesting you stay tied to the house forever, we'd all go mad doing that! But that for a short time you prioritise the routine to 'bed it in' and get her settling, then can be a bit more flexible afterwards.  You don't have to stay in all day, with 3h A times there should be at least 2-3 windows of opportunity in the day of a couple of hours to get out and about

Can you post yesterday's routine with the bad bedtime?

Overnight I would not feed every two hours.  Even if she still needs overnight feeds (perfectly reasonable), she doesn't need that many and that frequently is almost certainly a prop now.  A good rule of thumb is not to feed more frequently at night than in the day.  If she can handle 4 hours in the day, then if she wakes at night before that time you persist in settling her back to sleep by other means. 

Hugs though, you are doing a great job (and well done sticking with nursing!!) and you are by no means the only one with a 6 month old struggling with sleep.  I know it can feel like that sometimes but the very existence of this site is proof that we all have struggles xx

[oofy2016]

Does anyone have any advice?
Really deaperate here. She won't settle tonight at all. I've had 15 mins sleep and so has she.
Hubby got so cross he has moved into the spare room.
I feel like a total failure.
She won't feed. Won't skeep. Screams when I Shh pat. If I take her into bed with me she blows raspberries which I ignore and then she starts screaming.
I just don't know what to do and feel so alone.
:-(

[jessmum46]

Hugs, deep breaths what happened?  She sounds super-unsettled for some reason - ill? teeth? pain?  Did you see my previous post?

[oofy2016]

Hi,

Thanks so much for the advice. I am sorry, for some reason when I replied last, your previous reply didn't appear on my computer. Thank you for the advice.

I am going to try stopping feeding to sleep tonight and try to introduce EASY properly, separating the feeding from sleeping. I think you are right, that maybe the issue is with our routine and I have fallen into lots of accidental parenting due to her poor health.

My two issues are: feeding to sleep (something I am now going to work on stopping) and getting her to nap in her crib, as she currently naps relatively reliably in the sling.

I am going to look at your gentle removal plan now. Do I need to 100% stop feeding to sleep? As in for every waking overnight? (Last night she woke every 1.5 hours)

Do you have any advice on transitioning her naps from the sling to the crib? When I have tried this before, she wakes after about half an hour (if I can get her down at all) and then I worry about losing track of the routine or creating a chronically overtired baby by having insufficient nap times.

I also wondered, in the BW books Tracy seems to imply that PU/PD is the only way to get her napping/sleeping independently now she is over 6 months, but can I use a version of shh pat instead? How do you normally recommend this is done with a 6.5 month old?

Regarding using shush pat and versions of it for babies over 6 months: Last night, to settle her to sleep, I held her and very slightly rocked while I kissed her, as now when I shush pat, she seems to get quite worked up and yells loudly. Once she was calm and floppy, I put her down and she stayed asleep (only for 40 mins, see below). Is this method of shush pat ok, or do you have advice on how to use shush pat in a baby over 6 months? I find it very difficult to settle her in her crib as I used to be able to do as she rolls over and thrashes about when I try to settle her in the crib and not in my arms.
She slept for 40 minutes and I repeated the process.
Overnight she woke up every 1.5 hours.
I am exhausted, but it was better than the previous night.

Sorry about all the questions and thank you very much for any help or advice you can give.

J xx

[oofy2016]

Hi hi,
Just further to my message above, I've started using pu/pd for naps and sleep.
It worked for bedtime last night in about half an hour and I was so happy - I hadn't thought it would work! Last night she got less upset with PU/PD than she had for shh pat previously.

HOWEVER....
Her first A time was 3 hours this morning.
With her first nap today she slept for 30 mins and then woke up.
I believe if the nap is under 1 hour, I have to extend the nap (been reading the baby whisperer solves all your problems)
I tried to extend the nap as it was so short (in the sling her morning nap is usually 2hours) but it was really, really tough as she had been asleep for half an hour and appeared wide awake. I did pu/pd for an hour and fifteen minutes. She screamed like she was being tortured for the whole time and I gave up.
I am concerned she will now hate her crib and be very OT today.
She was just distraught. is this meant to happen with PU/PD?
I have a really good relationship with her and I am really concerned that my relationship with her will break down and she won't trust me anymore. :-(
I also don't know if PU/PD will work again as she will remember getting this stressed and me giving up....

Please help. If she's going to get this upset do I just stop when she wakes up?
VERY new to PUPD. I have been picking her up the moment she cries and putting her down the moment she stops.

Thank you for any advice.

J x

[mummyW]

Hi, firstly offering hugs as your lo sounds exactly like mine just now   Your post earlier today I could have written myself about our morning nap routine today and yesterday! Nightmare doesn't cover it, I was completely at breaking point. I gave up trying to settle my lo in the cot and she still wouldn't settle with cuddles!

I'm afraid I don't have any advice but I've been following your post and the replies and just wanted to offer my hugs and support! It's horrible to say but I'm glad I'm not the only one having these problems. Xxx

[oofy2016]

Hi mummy w. It's a relief to know I'm not the only one too....thanks for your post.

An update- the situation so far is like this: I use pupd for bedtime and it works like a charm. Hardly any crying, she is down and asleep in 15 mins and stays asleep for 1hr 40 mins. Not that long, but at least she went down. I then fed her, she woke an hour later, and as I'd fed her recently, I decided to use pupd at this waking. It took an hour, and she only slept for 20 mins before waking up screaming. I didn't use it again, I fed her and at subsequent wakings fed her again.

For naps, I seem to have the same thing. Her a time is about 3 hours, but it still takes an hour plus to get her to settle and she then only sleeps for 20-30 mins and then wakes up screaming.

Is there any reason why pupd would work so well at bedtime but be so bad at naps and night wakings?

I'm planning to back off using it other than at bedtime as I don't understand why there is such a major discrepancy in how well it works at different times. Is this normal?

Any advice greatly appreciated.
Thanks,

J x

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) for you both.  Sorry it's been tough .

She really is waking very frequently, are we certain there is no ongoing discomfort?  I'm just a bit hesitant to say go all out with PUPD as I don't think the reflux possibility has been totally explored? What about the eczema, is that well-controlled?  And has her tummy had a proper chance to heal off dairy?  Are you excluding everything, hidden dairy included from your diet? 

If you are quite sure there is no ongoing discomfort, then I think this may be a case of persisting.  It's often easier at bedtime - the drive to sleep is stronger and LO is more tired so can't fight for so long.  Naps are often a lot harder, and as she's taking an hour to settle she must be massively OT by the time she does hence the 30 minute screaming wake ups.  The more chances she gets to practice, the easier it will get

For your own sanity please don't spend over an hour trying to resettle though!! Honestly, if it's not happening in 5-10 mins or so I really don't think it's worth it.  It just exhausts both of you.  Just get her up and move on with the day, and be prepared to bring the next nap a touch early due to the first short nap.  She won't have lost trust in you you were there the whole time, she was never on her own and more than likely she was just trying to tell you I'm tired, I can't get to sleep, why aren't we doing this the easy way? (((Hugs)))

Nights....I think it may help you to write a plan down that you feel you can stick to.  How about feed no more often than 3 hours if you think you can't get to 4 yet? And then gradually extend?

I know it's tough, but you can do this! Make sure you are happy there is no ongoing pain, and then grit your teeth.  Better sleep awaits for you all!  Oh if PUPD seems too much and she isn't distracted by shh pat, then use that your method sounds ok but a little like you may have been holding her until asleep if she'd gone floppy.  Try to put her down awake and just soothe with your voice, a hum or shh and maybe just rest a hand on her if patting is too much x

[mummyW]

Thanks Jess, just wanted to add I'm pretty sure my lu is teething again and this has cashed the upset. Could this be the case for your lo as well? Xx

[oofy2016]

Thanks for the reply. Waking every 1.5 hours is pretty frequent! sometimes I feel like i'm going a bit mad!
I re-read the section in 'the babywhisperer solves all your problems' on PUPD and realised I was doing it incorrectly for her age. I have changed and now follow the 6-8 month technique, which seems to work much better. (fingers crossed, I don't want to jinx it).
I have read about 6 books on sleep and instituted lots of changes over the months, (small things like blackout blinds and red nightlights, white noise etc) but nothing has made any difference at all.

I think you are totally right. her skin has virtually resolved since I gave up soya and dairy, we don't have to use the steroid cream anymore and she is a different baby during the day. so much happier. But thank you for your post, I checked everything again and guess what?!
 - the doctor had prescribed me calcium when I gave up dairy for the allergy, and guess what - it has soy in it. at the same time, I was prescribed domperidone, to ensure I had enough milk, as this was a bit of a questionmark. I now have heaps of breastmilk, but guess what? Domperidone has milk in it!

They were the only two things I hadn't checked, as I trusted that the doctor prescribing them would have checked them, as they were prescribed in response to our allergy diagnosis. Obvs not. Sometimes it is a bit frustrating that doctors don't seem to check things thoroughly. As her allergy to milk is severe (IgE mediated, potential anaphylaxis), I think this may indeed be causing a degree of discomfort.

I am going to continue PUPD at bedtime, but not change the other sleeps. NW's I will feed unless she has fed recently and day naps I will do in the sling, unless she seems particularly settled. If she is settled, I might be brave and try a daytime nap, but only if we both have the energy. I am nervous about messing up her daytime sleep and the impact that being subsequently overtired might have on our night sleep.

Last night I did PUPD for bedtime and only needed to pick her up 4 times, and she settled without much crying at all. Just a very gentle cry, no leg thrashing. She woke first last night after 2 hours, and I just kissed her face for 3 minutes and she went back to sleep for another hour, so I am hopeful that we can start to extend this first sleep a bit, even if the other NWs don't change for a few weeks (until the soya and milk are out my system again).

Does this sound ok? Is it OK to resettle by kissing her face, if I stop before she is fully asleep?

Thanks,

J x

[oofy2016]

ps, I think teething may also be an issue - she has her two bottom teeth so I imagine her top two are on their way! 

[jessmum46]

Settling by kissing sounds lovely if it's working for you both then go for it!  Sorry about the milk and soy being in your meds how frustrating, let's hope she is more comfortable with it gone xx

[oofy2016]

So.. An update. Thanks for all the advice so far.

Pupd was working very well for bedtime and....I don't want to jinx it, we had two nights where I put her down and I didn't need to pick her up again, she just rolled over and went to sleep.... For FIVE hours! It was crazy, I've not had that in 7 months! She only woke up 3x overnight .. Which is MUCH better than hourly! So, just as I was feeling confident...

We ended up at a family do and she napped in the car a bit later than usual on Saturday. And bedtime was a total mess and she woke up 5x overnight and I could only settle her by feeding. I put it down to rubbish routine, so yesterday was totally on it with naps and normal routine, she was a bit more of a challenge to settle, which I expected, pupd took about 20 mins. BUT, then she woke up hourly, all night and I couldn't settle her.

What is going on? And what can I do to get our progress back? Agh.

Thank you for any advice or support.

J x

[oofy2016]

Ps is it worth trying a dream feed to keep her going longer at night? If so, how do I do this? Thank you for any advice.

[jessmum46]

Hi and sorry for not getting back sooner - just got back from my holidays.  How are things now?  Any better?

A dream feed may help a bit but I suspect that weaning those night feeds a bit might help more.  Not necessarily getting rid of all, but 3 wake-ups is still a lot really and suggests to me there is an element of habit to it.  What do you think?