Shh pat is hard, please help!

[oofy2016]

Hi Jessmum.

I hope you had a good holiday. :-) Thank you for the help so far.

Things are much better here. (touch wood). She now still naps in the sling, but bedtime is much better. I put her down in the crib, after our bedtime routine, she plays like a mad thing and then falls asleep. however, we do still have about 4 nightwakings overnight (we had one night of one wakeup but it hasn't been repeated).

Are you able to help me with the next step? We are doing reasonably well (anything is better than hourly wakings) but I'm not sure how to take the next step with night weaning.... do I just do anything I can not to feed, and if so, how do I know that she isn't hungry. should I just PU/PD at every waking? If I reduce feeding overnight do you think she will start sleeping for longer?
I don't think she is ready to not feed at all overnight, but I do definitely think that there is a big element of habit in her waking.

Also, do you have any guidance on how to dreamfeed - do I pick her up (I am breastfeeding) and pop her on the breast or try to pop a bottle in while she is lying down at about 11? (She is a bit hit and miss with a bottle). How do I make sure se feeds properly if she is sleepy?

Thank you for any advice. I'm a bit lost about how to take the next step to nightweaning and reducing our night wakings...

Jess

ps do you think napping her in her bed would make a difference to our nightwakings (instead of napping her in the sling).
Also, she is in our room still as she has been waking so frequently and I didn't want to be running down the corridor hourly overnight. I am happy with this arrangement and am not sure I am ready to change this, but do you think it would make a difference if I moved her into her own room?

[jessmum46]

Glad things are better for you  

do you think napping her in her bed would make a difference to our nightwakings (instead of napping her in the sling).

Not necessarily - if she was napping badly in the sling and was waking at night through OT then maybe yes, but as night sleep and naps are (apparently) organised differently in the brain I think it's perfectly possible for her not to be an independent sleeper at nap time but do so at night.  I think she's waking a lot from habit at night and wouldn't expect crib naps to help with that particularly.  Of course the 'BW' way is to do all sleep independently, so if you did want to transition her to the crib for naps I'm happy to help.  She is only going to get bigger and heavier....and more alert.....so sling naps may not work for you forever.

I am happy with this arrangement and am not sure I am ready to change this, but do you think it would make a difference if I moved her into her own room?

This is totally your call.  It is possible that your noise is disturbing her at night, and you are possibly at risk of reacting to her stirring too soon given how near she is.  I find it much harder to distinguish a real 'i need you' cry when I am *right there* whereas if i am in the next room i am better at pausing and listening before rushing in. 

I put her down in the crib, after our bedtime routine, she plays like a mad thing and then falls asleep. however, we do still have about 4 nightwakings overnight

Just remind me of your current EASY?  Just wanted to check there is no UT/OT at play...

I'm not sure how to take the next step with night weaning.... do I just do anything I can not to feed, and if so, how do I know that she isn't hungry. should I just PU/PD at every waking? If I reduce feeding overnight do you think she will start sleeping for longer?
I don't think she is ready to not feed at all overnight, but I do definitely think that there is a big element of habit in her waking.

There are different ways of night weaning really.  The question of hunger is the biggest one to get your head round and to some extent yes she will be hungry, because she is now habituated to feeding overnight.  The thing to bear in mind is being a bit hungry isn't dangerous and I wouldn't for a minute suggest going from 4 feeds to none all at once.  It's up to you about introducing a dreamfeed - I actually never did one and I'd hesitate to introduce one at this age really, Tracy had babies dropping the dreamfeed by around 8 months once established on solids and if she's not used to it I think there's a risk it may disturb her sleep more than help it.

Five possible ways to do it:
(1) pick a time interval, say 4 hours (I think this is totally reasonable at her age).  Note the time of her bedtime feed and then add 4 hours.  Say BT feed is at 7pm, 4h later is 11pm.  Any wakings before 11pm you use PUPD until she settles all the way back to sleep, including if this takes you all the way past 11pm.  So say she wakes at 10.30pm, you PUPD for 30 mins and she is still awake, but you still keep going - don't give up and feed (that just teaches "I protest long enough and I will get fed").  Any waking past 11pm you pick her up, feed immediately and put back down.  Note 4 hours later.  And repeat.  This would give her two opportunities to feed overnight which I would say is adequate provided she is being given sufficient opportunities for milk in the daytime.
(2) pick two times at which you will feed, say the first wakeup 10/11pm and then not again until 5am.  Use PUPD for all other wakings.
(3) work on one waking at a time and use PUPD to eliminate it, feeding at other wakings, until that first one is gone.  Do the same for the second one etc etc.
(4) gradually reduce time on the breast over a few days (i.e. take her off after less and less time), and then use PUPD as above to eliminate the waking
(5) note the time of her first feed on night 1.  Night 2 you do not feed until at least 15 mins later, using PUPD for any wakings that occur before this time.  Note what time this first feed now happens.  Night 3 add another 15 mins etc etc.
 - I really liked this way, and it worked amazingly for DS.  Night 1 he woke at 23.15 and I fed.  Night 2 he woke at 22.15 and I resettled.  I then resettled every 15 mins until 23.15.  Went for one more resettle to push the feed just 15 more minutes.....and he woke at 3.30am!!

Anyway just some thoughts there - you can use any combination of them

[oofy2016]

Thanks jessmum,

So I decided to work on one wake up at a time. It was going really well, she was waking at 1.30 and 4.30 and then up at 7.30. Two days ago I decided to work on the 4.30 wake up, and she went a bit crazy, like proper yelling after about ten mins of pupd. I continued as I didn't want to 'give in' but eventually after about 30-40 mins, had to feed her. I felt really wrung out and mean.
She was so awake she wouldn't go back to sleep and that was it for the day.
Last night, she was much harder to settle than usual and got quite stressed at bedtime. She settled after about 20 mins, but needed pupd again, (for the last ten days she's been settling herself). She then woke 2 hours later and would not settle. She was distraught. I had to feed her and even then she wouldn't settle well. I ended up taking her into bed with me and she slept in with me for the night, feeding frequently. Every time I tried to put her in her crib she went crazy. I felt really bad.

She has fed a lot today and I'm wondering if it's a growth spurt, but it doesn't explain her stress.

What do you think has caused this and do you have any advice?

Thanks, very tired and a bit confused.

J

[jessmum46]

Is she teething or perhaps coming down with something?

[oofy2016]

Ok. So last night she woke at 11,12.30, 2, 3, 3.30,4.30 and 5.
I only fed at 12.30 and 3.30. The rest of the time I pupd in less than 5 mins and she went back to sleep easily.
I'm starting ranitidine with her today, to see if it might be silent reflux (it's been v difficult to get this from the gp)
BUT I wondered if I am now a prop? Am I having to pupd at every light sleep cycle as she can't put herself to sleep without it? It certainly feels like it....if so, do you have any advice on how to wean off pupd?
Thank you so much for any advice you can give. It's been a long haul and some things are improving as I no longer feed to sleep and she settles herself, but I'm not actually getting any more sleep yet.
I'm really struggling now and have fallen down the stairs once and bumped my car twice in the last ten days. :-(
Thank you. J

[oofy2016]

Ps no sign of teething or illness...

[jessmum46]

(((hugs)))

How are her naps going right now? Could it possibly be OT causing such frequent wakings?

[oofy2016]

Hi Jessmum. thank you so much for the advice so far.
She could be overtired...or undertired? I am a bit lost so really appreciate the help.

Can overtiredness cause frequent wakeups like this?

Up until this week, apart from a few really rare occasions, I have only been able to nap her in her sling, or in the car. I am a little suspicious that her nap quality is poor in the car and sling - could this be an issue causing enough overtiredness that she is waking really frequently?

On another note. I finally (I have been asking since she was about 10 weeks old) have been prescribed ranitidine for her to 'test' whether there is an aspect of silent reflux to her frequent night wakings. We started the ranitidine on Saturday - do you know how quickly it works?

We are also on holiday this week and with my husbands help, i have been very strict on awake times and have tried the morning nap in her cot. her awake time is 3 hours. Three mornings now, she has had her morning cot nap, I have done Pick up put down with her grumbling but not full on crying, for about 5 minutes, and she has then slept for 2h. its nuts!! She has literally never done that before. She slept pretty soundly.

Night wakings havent really changed, but today, she literally fell asleep at her high chair, before she ate, before her bath and without her nighttime breastfeed. I sort of woke her and we did a really quick bath and I tried to feed her, but she was too sleepy to even latch on.

Im going to keep an eye on her in case there is an illness behind this behaviour, but is it possible that
a) this is a positive response to ranitidine and she is now comfy enough to fall asleep when she is tired?
b) the cot naps are SO much better than sling naps that there has been a resolution to chronic OTness and she is now falling asleep alone?

She has literally NEVER fallen asleep without considerable effort from me, or a really long wind down time.

Its a bit odd/unusual and I'd really appreciate you opinion. Thank you.

PS her EASY today was as follows:

Up at 6am
E Breastfed 6 am
A play on playmat/dressing etc
Solids: 8.30
S in cot 8.55-10.45
E Breastfed 10.50
A Shopping in town 11-12
Solids 1pm
Breastfed 1.30
Sleep 1.50-3.28 (in the car)
Solids 5pm too tired to eat, eyes closing in high chair
E -usually I would breastfeed her before bed but she fell asleep...despite lights on and lots of effort to get her to feed properly...
Sleep - 6.15
(will see how the night is, but she hasn't eaten properly since 1.30pm, so I think she HAS to be hungry....v weird)

[jessmum46]

Up until this week, apart from a few really rare occasions, I have only been able to nap her in her sling, or in the car. I am a little suspicious that her nap quality is poor in the car and sling - could this be an issue causing enough overtiredness that she is waking really frequently?

Yes this could certainly do it.  If she is having no good quality sleep in the day, this often leads to poor sleep at night as well.

I have done Pick up put down with her grumbling but not full on crying, for about 5 minutes, and she has then slept for 2h.

This is awesome!!!!  It may be a bit of a catch up from a bad night.  3h A time is a little on the shorter end for an 8 month old (have I got her age right?)  But hey, 2h naps are great!

Hmmmm looking at today I would suspect illness brewing.....that's super-sleepy on such good naps   Hope she's ok xx

[oofy2016]

Thanks Jessmum.

She is definitely not right today, very crabby and totally refusing her solids. No other obvious signs of illness, but enough that I'm really a bit concerned. I'm going to just monitor her very closely and lots of tlc.

Hopefully nothing major and she will be back to normal soon. I'll also check her A times and maybe keep her awake a bit better when she is back to normal.

Really appreciate the advice so far. It's been a long road.

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) and hope she's back to her usual self before too long x

[oofy2016]

Hi. I'm getting really really desperate.
She's over her temperature and eating and back to normal from that perspective....
Now, I got desperate 2 days ago, to try something as I am so sleep deprived I'm starting to not enjoy life. So I've moved her into her own cot....but the sleep is as bad as ever.
Last night. For example, she woke at 10.30, 10.50, 11.50, 12.05, 12.20, 2.30, 3...and then I lost it and had to do sleep as I'm just exhausted.
I need help. I really really don't want to do controlled crying, but this can't go on. She now naps in her cot for the first nap, puts herself to sleep with a little pick up put down, but screams at every waking. She's on ranitidine, her allergies are relatively sorted, her weight is still being monitored....but has improved.
Is this all due to weight? Do you think I should quit breastfeeding and give bottles?
Is there anyone professional who follows baby whisperer methods that I can pay to come help me?.
I'm really really desperate and friends and family are pressuring me to let her cry now...
Please help

[jessmum46]

Hun I think you need to go back to your doctor. It does not sound to me like her reflux/allergies are properly controlled.  No baby wakes that often just from 'bad habits' yk?  Honestly I really don't feel comfortable advising on any sort of sleep training with a baby who sounds like they have ongoing discomfort.  It's just not fair to either of you have you posted over on the colic, reflux and crying board? There's a lot of info there and people who have lived through this and may be able to give you some more insights.  So many (((hugs))), I'd fix it for you in an instant if i had a magic wand x

[creations]

Hi there, I don't think we've 'met' before, welcome to BW

I can feel your exhaustion in your post.  It brings back memories of when my DS was a baby and the times I was really struggling with sleep deprivation, I was utterly exhausted with pretty much no one I could rely on for back up.  I wanted to stop by with a hug and to say hang in there, easier said than done, I know.
I totally agree with katherine (jessmum) about going back to the doctor.  I had a period when mine needed a ranitidine increase and it was the lovely community here who were able to advise me on that. I had a hard time with the doc unfortunately, he said my DS was on the right dose and the max dose possible...he wasn't, he was on approx a quarter of what he needed which I eventually got sorted out. The difference was dramatic to say the least.  Whilst we still had our difficult times with reflux, illness, teething and so on, it was manageable because his reflux was managed.
Please please go back to the doctor.  I didn't read your whole thread but I saw briefly there was a good sleep of 1.5hr or so a couple of months back, this shows your LO is able to sleep when not in pain, it also shows your LO is able to be sleep trained in a respectful way, a way which does not break the bond of trust.  She just can't do it right now the way she is struggling.

With regards to family and friends encouraging you to use a CC or CIO method, I think sometimes people say these things because they want to help an exhausted Mummy who they care about and it is the only way they know to 'solve' the problem of your tiredness, but they are not taking into full consideration the long term effects on your baby.
I'm going to suggest a couple of things:
- tell them you need help, say the words "When are you available to help me?" and book it in.  Even if someone can only do a couple of hours child minding for you make a firm date for it and make it happen. Before they arrive write down the feed times and where the nappies are kept, leave it in plain sight.  When your helper arrives say "thank you," hand baby over and walk away. Do not make them tea, do not engage them in conversation or let them engage you, do not use the time to put a load of laundry on.  Trust that your baby will continue to live for the next two hours and take yourself to bed. Get in lie down and sleep. If you can't sleep just lie there in the dark, rest your body and your mind.
- my second suggestion, more of a plea really, if you get to breaking point and actually begin use of CC, I beg you, stay in the room with your baby, hold her hand.  If you are going to let her cry without picking up please at least stay with her.  She needs you there.

Lots of hugs, I know this is a really hard time for you xxx

[Buntybear]

Hi sending lots and lots of hugs. It is so so tough - I was right there until olly was virtually 18 months before we got him to STTN - it was ALL down to food and him reacting 

I have posted on your older post in CRC to ask about your diet to keep that separate to this sleep thread.

If you have only just been prescribed the meds then i would be going right back to the GP and get them to tweak the amounts of they can.

Big hugs, hang in there. our LO is in pain, please don't leave her to cry xxxxx