6 mo will only sleep if just been fed

[Ruby86]

Ok so my Lo (dd2) is 6 months old. She was on a relatively goodish 3 hour EASY but always been a cat napper (sometimes will randomly go for 1.15 hours) also we have never had to fully rock her to sleep it was a wind down of rocking and singing then lay down half awake and she would fall asleep,  but from this weekend omg she has become a nightmare. She just would not go down to sleep unless she was fully asleep and then sometimes would scream as soon as we start to lay her down. Would try and get her down anyway possible for 45 mins she then seemed hungry even though she fed 2.5 hours ago. So I would feed her and she would stay awake for about 30-45 mins then finally go down without rocking. So this has now become a constant thing all weekend and now it's still going on and it's Tuesday. She is also waking every 2.5 hours at night and I feed her at each one. She is ob solids also 3 times a day.

So my question is, how do I sleep train her? I try to ssshhh pat her but she just screams at me. So wondering is pupd best for her? I do struggle with time as have a 4 year old who isn't in school and a partner who does nothing but work.

Some guidance would be great.

As i have said we were on a 3 hour EASY but now there pretty much isn't an EASY. I couldn't even tell you what our "EASY" looks like.

I don't know where to start. She used to be an ok sleeper but not now.

[Buntybear]

Hi - I am sure that such a huge change on her will be something developmental - maybe a wonder week or a half birthday but shall bump for you and see if anyone has any advice 

[Ruby86]

Thank you so much. I'm hoping it is just a developmantal thing. X

[Buntybear]

Just had a thought that it could be teeth?

[weaver]

I am wondering if she is BF? The BF advice in the books is now somewhat dated, and we like to think that Tracey would have updated it if she were still with us.

For us, we would never had managed to feed only every 4 hours, and this is reasonably common. From about 4 mos, we did a 'big feed' and also a top up about 30 mins before sleep time.  Short-napping and wanting to feed to sleep sounds like she's hungry to me.

[Ruby86]

I don't think it is teeth as it isn't an in pain cry it is a frustrated then hungry cry.

She is bf yes and we are on solids. I know she can settle herself as when I do eventually feed her I do leave it 30-45 mins before going to sleep and she sends herself to sleep wide awake in her bed without a problem most of the time. But the only way this happens is if she has had milk within the last hour.

I was hoping it was just a growth spurt but this has been going on 6 days now, they don't last that long do they?

I have been trying shh pat but she hates it. I'm beginning to think I need to sleep train from scratch. What do you think? Start over or wait it out see if it is developmental or growth spurt?

Thanks

[weaver]

I do leave it 30-45 mins before going to sleep and she sends herself to sleep wide awake in her bed without a problem most of the time. But the only way this happens is if she has had milk within the last hour.

Ok so it seems like she's hungry.  I would make a habit of feeding her a while before sleep, as you are doing.  You might not need to do it for every nap and in time solids will help fill it in.  A GS can easily last a week, I think.  Keeping up the calorie intake will help.

[creations]

Hi there
My thoughts are just slightly different.

Whilst I agree with Anne that many BF babies don't move to 4hrly feeds at 4 months old as per the 'norm' (Tracy did say that certain babies including low birth weight, prem, or BF may not make it to 4hrly feeds until closer to 6 months old) your baby is now 6 months old and I would expect the main milk feeds to be 4 hrs apart.  You said she was on 3hr EASY but really this is unlikely to be appropriate at this age.

There are a few different options (food and hunger wise) which could be going on here, see if anything rings a bell with you:
- introducing solids can increase desire for milk, Tracy suggested doing a top up milk right at the end of a solids feed, my own DS needed this for a couple of weeks then dropped the additional milk and was satisfied with water but the early days he *needed* the milk directly after the solids even though he had had a full milk feed at the right time.
- 3 solids meals per day may be too much for her.  It is recommended to introduce 1 solids feed at 6 months and to work up to 3 solids meals at 8 months (having said that many do introduce 3 meals earlier especially if LO is interested, so long as milk intake doesn't drop it should be ok).  If your LO takes too much solids she might not be getting as much in the way of calories because at this age milk is more calorific, so then she ends up asking for more milk, reducing the solids portions may help.
- solids may be giving her gas so she is unable to settle to sleep so well
- it is vital to offer water alongside solids meals, if she doesn't get water (or BM) with her solids meals she may be thirsty and hence the additional BF later on and refusing to sleep until she gets it, thirst rather than hunger.

Even if milk feeds do need to run on 3hrs rather than 4hrs (which I really do not expect at 6 months and with solids between) you still need to increase the A time to fit with her sleep needs, a 3hr EASY routine isn't going to be suitable.
It sounds to me like she could just be UT for the nap and need a routine change.  6 months is a prime time for routine change anyway, moving from 3 naps to 2 naps and is often a time of transition which can look as though LO has lost the ability to self settle.

I would suggest you post your EAS times.  If you have no times recorded right now then begin today with recording times she eats (milk and solids) sleeps and wakes with brief notes of when you tried to put her down, if she refused, what you did and when she finally fell asleep
for example
WU 7
E BF 7
E solids 8
S tried to put down for nap at 9, refused
E BF 9.15
S 10 - 11.30 settled after being put down at 9.45 with some shush/pat in the cot
...and so on.

I think if we see your times we may be able to help you more.

[Ruby86]

Creations thank you so much for this reply.

1 of those things really stood out to me. I notice sometimes after solid food she seems hungry and I've given her bf after and she seems starving so i always thought maybe the food got everything moving and so more hungry. Also she is having 2-3 meals a day as started solids at 5 months but maybe I will cut back and see if this helps.

She can go 4 hours between feeds but sometimes she can't. I haven't got an easy wrote down but will do one from monday (but busy this weekend so naps will be off). I have however noticed that her A time is more towards 2.5-3 hours now and then has a good 1.5 hour nap as long as I've feed an hour before said nap.

I'll get an EASY up and see what you think. Thanks

[creations]

That starving behaviour directly after solids is exactly how my DS was too (as mentioned above). It's kind of odd isn't it?  How you feed them milk until they are full then give them solids which is more food rather than less and suddenly they need *even more* milk.  I was quite glad about it as mine was not a good milk drinker so any extra was a kind of bonus.  I don't think the top up BF right after solids needs to go on a long time but I'd follow LO's lead on it. And offer water too.

Watch out for portion sizes, too much solids might mean she needs more milk at night so more night feeds (I'm a bit of a hypocrite on the portion size thing, mine ate huge portions of solids and I just followed his lead because milk intake did not drop and no additional night feeds so I guessed he knew what he needed).  When the routine settles down again you might look at how many night feeds there are. I think 2 at this age is about right for a BF baby but I am not experienced in BF.

Sounds like you might be able to move to a 3hr A time, fit the E times around it and might possibly settle into a nice routine again.  It would be nice it it turned out to be that simple wouldn't it?

[Buntybear]

You have had some great support already. Please do post your EASY you may be able to get some help with the short naps too! Esp if she is on a 3 hour EASY, it could be she is UT and needing a longer A time - thus making naps easier and longer x

[Ruby86]

Ok so I managed to get an EASY from Monday. I have changed a few things now. The solid portion size is now smaller and I am topping up with BF after each solid feed. I am also doing 1 maybe 2 solid feeds a day. I like to give her one as a dinner but with her current EASY routine it is hard as I don't get time to as she gets very tired very quick after her last nap.

So our EASY:

She woke at 6:50am but had fed at 5am so didn't BF when she woke up.

E 8:50am
A
S 9:55-11:15 (Started routine at 9:40 and she went down on her own with a little pu/pd and shh pat
E 11:35 (had a solid feed at 1:15 with a bf top up)
A
S 2:05-2:38 (woke up very happy and wouldn't go back to sleep)
E 3:40 (4:40 solid feed with a bf top up) (if I don't do a solid feed at this time as dinner time I won't get to do it as she is too tired)
A
S 5:15-5:45 (started at 5:05 went down on own no assistance needed)
E started bedtime routine of bath etc and then fed at 6:40
A
S she eventually went to sleep at 8pm and was a struggle to go down (used pu/pd and shh pat)
E she woke at 8:40 so fed her in the hope this would fill her up

Woke at 10pm use pu/pd and went straight to sleep
E 11:30pm
E 1:38am
woke at 3:20 just pu and comforted then put her down and she went to sleep
E4:25am

I do think I have got in to a bad habit at night of just feeding as soon as she wakes up. This is just out of pure tiredness and it is easier to do that but long term I need to stop now as I am getting too tired and she is waking more and more.

If you could suggest what I do about the day time in terms of what I do about her needing to have fed an hour or so before a nap and how I stop so many night awakenings would be great, thank you

[creations]

Although your routine isn't 'perfect' (2 CNs and 1 long nap rather than 2 long naps) it actually looks quite normal to me for a LO who is transitioning to 2 naps and taking solids meals. Routines always get a bit messy during transitional periods.

I would suggest extending the second A time to a full 3 hrs (it's just 10-15 mins more than in your above EASY, the extra 10 mins may make a big difference) and see if you can get 2 good naps in.  This would enable you to head towards an early BT instead of having to squeeze in another CN and then BT moving later.  During this transition, if you do find you need to give the last CN perhaps see if she will wake after 15 mins instead of 30 and aim for something like 8pm BT.  It may be worth doing 2 milk feeds in that time, one of WU and one for BT. I always gave the BT milk close to BT even if he'd had a feed not long before.

With the NWs I'd check the time and make sure at least 3hrs has gone by between feeds, so that 1.38 NF I would suggest a resettle rather than a feed as it was only 2hr from last feed, then it would make sense to feed at 3.30am if need and the next feed is at morning WU.  That makes 2 NFs (I'm not counting the 8.40 NF as this may be avoided with a milk feed right at BT) which is normal for a BF baby.

If you could suggest what I do about the day time in terms of what I do about her needing to have fed an hour or so before a nap

Her E routine looks ok, yes not all the main milks are 4hrs apart but I don't think it looks quite as off track as maybe you think.

(4:40 solid feed with a bf top up) (if I don't do a solid feed at this time as dinner time I won't get to do it as she is too tired)

This is actually a great time for dinner.  My 5yo still eats better if his evening meal is between 4.30 and 5pm and no later.  Babies and children do tend to eat better earlier.

Is she taking water with her solids meals?

[Ruby86]

I would love to get rid of the CN as life would be easier. Will try and get the 2nd nap to ne long. Although I've always struggled with the 2nd nap as her A is hard because she yawns and rubs her eyes a lot after just 2 hours so By 2.5 hours I get worried she will be overtired. I try hard not to overstimulate but hard with a 4 year old who is always playing with something.

Yeah I have been naughty with the night wakenings and just feeding but am making the decision to nip it in the bud as it'll work out better for us all in the long run.

She takes water after solids yes but sometimes it just doesn't seem enough.

I have a question as today's nap just went so bad that she is currently sleeping on me which she has only ever done as a newborn. She woke really early at 6:20 and didn't get to sleep until 8pm so didn't have enough sleep. She was yawninf by 8am so I tried to put her to sleep (E at 7:30) and she wouldn't go down. Ended up feeding again at 9am just to calm her down and she still wouldn't go. I was in and out of the room to try and break it up and start from scratch but nothing worked. So i ended up rocking and she was asleep by 10:15 so seriously OT. She is snotty so has a cold AGAIN but just wanted to know what you'd do in this instance? I persisted for 2 hours but then thought god this poor child is so tired

[creations]

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to help them, illness was one of the very very rare times my LO would sleep on me.  I tended to try for a close to normal A time and let him sleep longer if he wanted to.