Author Topic: 17mo "over hold" weaning - WI/WO or another method?  (Read 454 times)

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Offline chauncycay

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17mo "over hold" weaning - WI/WO or another method?
« on: April 05, 2016, 21:48:37 pm »
Hi ladies!
I've read a bunch of the other posts and I can't figure out if this is the 18mo sleep regression, or just my toddler's general sleep issues getting worse (hopefully just worse before they get better, right? :))

DH is a classic over holder. I did the sleep training at 6.5mo with PU/PD and have always done the NW with pd toddler style. I think some of this is due to the overholding (no regrets, who can resist those cuddles! :)) and I fall into it the just let her cuddle on me after 5am with the EW.  I let her sleep on me - in the day bed in her room - so at least DH gets a little rest.  The screaming is unbearable otherwise at that point and no one sleeps.

So DH holding her in the chair in the dark and "sleeping" until she closed her eyes, waiting a few minutes then putting her in the crib with a hand on her for a few mins, then walking out - stopped working (not that it was really working, she always woke up 3+ times in the night!).  Now I started putting her down again as of Friday. 

I've had three months off from BT and naps so I'm rusty! (I get the other jobs... sleep training and middle of the night) I do the daily NW/EW so I'm used to pd and wi/wo but not the initial put to bed.

What's everyone's actual sleepy level before you put them in the crib and what other tips help with helping her learn independent sleep? WI/WO? Not sure.  I feel like I don't know the happy medium between over holding and WI/WO.

Issues:
- Single short nap - or horrible cry/scream for 30-40 mins going down, then a decent nap (horrible)
- Loooong time to get to sleep at BT
- NW
- EW

My super spirited DD is shockingly LSN (she's pretty happy and alert all day on 10 hrs of interrupted sleep at night and ~an hour and 15 mins nap once during the day!).  We've come to terms with this and asked the pediatrician, etc. There's really only been 3? days I can remember that she's had over 12 hours total of sleep between 9mo and now at 17mo.  It just doesn't happen. :(

Here is our routine.  We went to set nap when in the 2-1 transition from 10mo - 13mo after we tried every other mild routine tweak.  She seems to do better with one change, even if it's a big one.  We moved the set nap from 12:30p to 1p to adjust with heading to church school in a few months where they let out at 1pm and don't nap. We did it on daylight savings day so the time pushed an hour ahead anyway.  It was really a 30 min nap time change that way.

So since one set nap we're at:
7am WU (but she's a chronic EW between 5-6:30am, I resettle her or let her sleep on me until 7-7:30am)
1pm Set nap (rarely we go in earlier, if she's up too early or had a very disrupted night)
7pm BT

BT
We've always had the same routine and it works in that she knows what to expect and it's very calm, quiet and low lighting. We have dinner at 5:30p. We wind down with calm music and low lighting in the house. We get her bath ready with soft candlelight (seriously battery operated vanilla scented candles - we have them everywhere on timers - amazing!) and epsom salt with lavendar. I bathe with her and talk about her day. We kiss goodnight and get ready for bed.  Either DH or I put her to bed and whoever's doing it takes her from the bathroom to her room with a candle, no other lights and gets her dressed and cuddles until a little more sleepy and then into the crib (was me forever, then that stopped working so he has done it for the past 3-4 months, and now that stopped working so this past few days back to me).

Bedtime is insane! It's taken over 2 hours Fri/Sat/Sun, then an 1.5 hour last night for her to settle down in her crib.  I put her in the crib at ~7p and she just talks, sings, crawls around, laughs, plays with her blanket (chews it, plays peekaboo), *runs* in circles, etc.  I exit during this.  She gets upset stands and cries hard and shouts for me. I go in, sleepy words (sometimes, sometimes silent), quick hug, PD. Hold hand on her.  Massage worked once, I've tried that and gentle back rub and it didn't work again.  She's just so AMPED. :( And it turns to OT and crazy cranky tired.  Then no one gets good sleep or downtime.

I think this is the process of stopping the overholding maybe?  I don't know.

She wakes up in the morning early, and usually resettles to sleep (on me at that point).

Changes:
Milk at bedtime
We read books and had a bottle up until 3 months ago (this was the same forever, I never fed her to sleep, she wouldn't ever release without waking up :)).  Then ditched the bottle for a milk sippy 2 months ago. Then last month transitioned to have the sippy during wind down/dinner.  We're trying to be able to brush teeth before bed without milk.  Her breath is terrible in the morning! :) She's generally a really good eater (loves pork loin, mmm) so there's not a hunger issue for waking up.

Light (stupid DST!)
The daylight savings change is killing us for light.  It's bright as day until after 8pm now! :(  We have blackout curtains, velcro'd to the window + blinds + regular curtains.  Still seems pretty bright.  I'm considering using tacky aluminum foil next!  but the light can't be the only culprit.  Shes the same when she wakes in the middle of the night. And seriously, she's just got to figure this out without going that far... *sigh

Teething
the usual culprit, she's got two big bad molars poking through right now - poor thing!  we have been alternating Tylenol and Advil once before bath to kick in by BT.  I've had to give her a secnd dose after midnight (anytime bt midnight-4am) if she wakes and won't settle.  At this point I'm ok with it since I know it's not the same time (not just habitual) and I try water first, if she's super fussy then a second dose while teething. And even sometimes the old snot sucker if we've got allergy nose. ah fun.

Developmental change - talking! singing! whistling! :)
She's in the last big "wonder week"(s) and trying to talk desperately.  Singing in the middle of the night. For hours... adorable but CRAZY! :P

This is the state we're in for BT.  she literally sings, laughs, babbles, and then starts to get upset when she doesn't have an audience. I've held her (very wiggly!) in the chair in the dark for a few minutes yawning and eyes closed to help show her it's sleepy time. sleepy words, etc.
Then I put her in the crib and usually try to keep a hand on her back until she settles.

We did the BW sleep training with great success at around 6.5 mo and got good solid 12 hour nights for ~6-8 weeks before she started crawling.  It's been all over the map with sleep since.  I've implemented pu/pd regularly and that's what I do (toddler style, just pd, never out of the crib) at night for all NW.

After 5am it's really hard to get her back settled so I just pick her up and let her sleep on me on the daybed in her room.  This is my resort.  I'm hoping it's not the reason she's chronically NW/EW.  It's generally after 2-3 NW where I've gotten her resettled in 15-20 mins in her crib so I feel successful at that point and am exhausted :)

She's never slept in our bed. And when one of us lets her sleep on us in the EW in her room it usually works, but not always.  Sometimes she's just up and gets *angry* if you try to make her sleep more.

So most night with all of the disturbances we're looking at ~10 - 10.5 hours of sleep and then she usually does a 50-1.15 nap. Total sleep is usually under 12 hours for the day. I'm sure she's chronically OT at this point, but also LSN. She's highly functional and I really have nothing else to compare it to.

DH couldn't get her to nap at all today 45 mins of screaming :(  Same thing happened on Friday.  Over the weekend it took me 45 mins of the talking/singing from her in her crib with wi/wo and a final hard cry while I had my hand on her and was "sleeping" on the crib rail before she finally passed out for a solid 1.5 hr nap! Both days exactly the same. I work from home in a separate office space but always have meetings during the nap and wind down times so he's on point weekdays. 

No idea what to do with BT and if there's a routine tweak for the nap? Don't know what to change... stuck. I'm expecting a rough night ahead so I 'm wrapping up work to head to early BT world.  We might throw in a calm stroller walk around the block after dinner.  We all need it!
Any advice welcome.
Apologies for the length here!
Thank you, ladies!
cc



Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: 17mo "over hold" weaning - WI/WO or another method?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 04:43:48 am »
She sounds a lot like my DD3! Just out of curiousity what sort of physical activity does she get in an average day? We deal with LSN too (went to one nap before 8 months, started capping it by 12 months and done with it entirely by 22 months) and when we can really wear her out with walks and trips to the park (or just running crazy around the house when it is too cold to get out lol) she settles way better.

Tbh I do wonder if the sleeping in the room with her is a prop (I so did that with DD1 when pregnant and finally started wearing earplugs and let DH sort her out as she did not expect him to sleep with her) and if sticking with one method for a good while would help.
Heidi




Offline chauncycay

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Re: 17mo "over hold" weaning - WI/WO or another method?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 19:22:55 pm »
Quote (selected)
She sounds a lot like my DD3!
Oh thank goodness! I'm just glad someone out there gets it :)  We're feeling very defeated lately!  I'm wondering if she will ever be an independent sleeper :(

Quote (selected)
Just out of curiousity what sort of physical activity does she get in an average day?
Activity is the big thing for her.  She's never still unless you strap her into something or play a cartoon with snacks and sit right next to her.  Even then after ~10 mins she starts rolling all over you and gets off the couch and plays with something else. My husband's daddy day care during the week so he's great at getting her out to "play soccer", walk all over the park, go to the playground, etc.  She's also got grandparent visits at least 3 times a week in the afternoon so we have most days with both physical and family entertainment.  Rainy days are a problem!  Pillow forts and indoor games get pretty boring but we do try to keep her active.

Quote (selected)
Tbh I do wonder if the sleeping in the room with her is a prop
I'm sure it is... *sigh.  I'm on the BT routine now so I just need to know when to gauge putting her in the crib.  I literally only held her for 2 mins last night saying sleepy words, yawning, then eyes closed "sleeping" and put her in the crib.  I wait with a hand on her (if she'll stay still, she starts pushing me away, but then cries if I sit down or leave). And I do the PD when she stands and I wi/wo when she gets totally goofy - like last night she started playing with the blanket doing peekaboo with herself and laughing. Ack!

Quote (selected)
and if sticking with one method for a good while would help.
So what would you recommend?  I can keep doing the wi/wo and PD combo.  Last night it only took an hour (as opposed to the previous 4 nights of 1.5 - almost 3 hours!) so that's an improvement. But then the rest of the night was the worst we've had in months.  Crying, talking escalating - every hour all night long.

At this point I know we have teething pain involved so I'm medicating her before bed to help and offering water all night when I go in to clam her down.  It seems to help.  She resettled within 5-10 mins every time last night.  But it was *every hour* at least!

I just feel like I need a sign that we're doing the right thing?

I did break down at 6:25am and let her sleep on me for 45 mins to catch a little break.  If her day starts before 7am it's really hard to get through.
She apparently napped at noon (1 hour early) after only 10 mins of crying (which is better than it has been). All crying is of course with one of us in there with a hand on her in the crib offering support silently or just sleepy words.  She only napped for 37 mins. :(
DH tried for another 40 mins (ack) to get her back down and aborted.
Looks like another rough night ahead maybe.

So last night I started in the room with her a little before 7p and she was down right at 8p.
Should we go earlier?  How much?  Any other tactics?

I also have no idea what to do in the early am, do I need to cut the sleeping on us 100% to make this work?  When do I throw in the towel in the am if we want a 7am start?
Call it quits after 6am if she won't resettle and we don't let her sleep on us?

I'm just scared she's so chronically OT that it's dangerous at this point.  But maybe that's just me! :)
Thank you so much.  The support is a blessing to have here. Even just being able to read others reports back with success is wonderful!



Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: 17mo "over hold" weaning - WI/WO or another method?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2016, 05:05:00 am »
If she is lsn I don't know that I would expect 12 hour nights until perhaps she drops that nap completely when she is older. When we still had a nap we got mostly 10.5 hr nights, sometimes 11. I think for the am I would pick a reasonable time and do whatever sleep training you chose until that time (and perhaps think about eventually using something like a gro clock if she is going to be an earlier riser).

So for sleep times you normally hold her a bit and then use your hand? I imagine that combined with the co-sleeping means she is not so great at self settling and by the time early morning rolls around it is the hardest time to get them to.sleep once they have had most of the nights sleep. Honestly at this age with my.kids I quit the PD part as they sure knew how to get back down themselves and I just repeated a phrase (ie lay down, its sleepy time).
Heidi