Author Topic: getting started with 5.5mo who goes to sleep independently but short naps  (Read 4989 times)

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Offline hohoh1

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Hi all - new here. My 5.5m/o son has a great bedtime routine and only wakes 2x at night to feed which I am working on. However his day naps are so short. It is all very predictable but we never get a nice long nap and I don't know how to change that - he is very hard to get back to sleep in the day as he's so used to taking a 30 minute nap.
Days tend to go like this:
6.15am wake up
7am breastfeed
8.30 or 9 nap 30 mins
10am breastfeed
10.30 or 11 nap 30 mins
1pm breastfeed
1.30pm nap 30 mins
4pm feed
4.30pm 30 nap mins
6.30 final feed, start bedtime routine
7.15 asleep

I am afraid to extend his wake times and end up with a very overtired baby when this routine works like clockwork. We used to have a very hard time keeping him awake til after 6.15pm when he slept in a bit later because he only took 3 x 30 min naps so this is a big improvement. He puts himself to sleep for at least the first two naps, I might have to help him with some shushing/jiggling in the cot for the third nap and the final nap is always in the pram. I have a couple of weeks to commit to changing this I just don't want to make a mess of things. Any advice? thank you in advance...

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Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

It looks to me like your LO is due an increase in A time and some short term help to learn to transition from one sleep cycle to another.
At this age 2.5 to 3hr A time is guidance so the 2hr 15 or 2hr A time you are currently giving is really on the short side.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
I know you fear OT but personally from my experience UT is just as bad if not harder, at least with a good amount of OT they will eventually go to sleep where as with UT they refuse and end up missing out on the restorative sleep.

I suggest increasing the A times by 15 mins and hold for a couple of days then increase again, hold for a couple of days and perhaps increase again if needed.  Gradually increasing the A time this way means it is less of a jump for LO.

At the same time, you can do a W2S (wake to sleep) which will help teach him to stay asleep
Here's the info, please see naps option 1
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Where you see the shush/pat method mentioned this is where you will do your shushing and jiggling in the cot, there is likely no need to switch from the jiggle to the pat if it is working for you.  Adapt the information given to your LO, so your LO has a (less common) 30 min sleep cycle it would seem so you need to go in at around 20 mins and begin to resettle, if you wait until 30 mins into the nap you'll be too late.

In addition, as a sleep training method you can also spend 45 mins in the room after the 30 min wake up time telling your LO to go to sleep.  This would be if the W2S did not work and LO fully woke and cried to be picked up.  So you would settle in the cot if possible but pick up if needed, calm in arms and put back in the cot when possible and continue to calm and sooth in the cot.  You can continue to help your LO all the way to sleep and even to deep sleep if needed as this is a training method so he learns he is supposed to sleep longer.  As this can be quite hard work for you, you might choose to do this for just the first nap of the day, it will take longer to get your whole routine in place this way but might be more manageable for you.
If you are more of an 'all out' character you can do this for every nap every day and your routine will come into place much faster and LO will learn to transition and stay asleep for a restorative length nap or 1.5 - 2hrs at each sleep.

You are likely looking at 2 long naps now, at 5.5 months some are still doing a little CN (cat nap) at the end of the day. If you feel you need that for a couple of weeks or so then fine but you are heading toward 6 months and a 2 nap routine, just so you know.

Hope this helps
please let us know if you have more questions and how things go :)


Offline hohoh1

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Thanks - this is so helpful.

Quick question though - am I supposed to increase his awake times throughout the day? Or just for one A period? Doing throughout the day will lead to him either missing one of his naps or getting to a really late bedtime, and he will be horrifically overtired if the W2S method doesn't work or if I can't settle him back down for a longer nap. I am afraid of overtiredness because he sleeps better at night than he used to...we used to get wakeups all evening and then 2-3 at night. Now the evenings have stopped, I think because his day sleep is solid, and sometimes he doesn't wake up in the night except for his 2 feeds...

Also, could I just try W2S for the middle nap rather than the early one?

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Ideally you would increase the first A time first as this comes after a good night sleep so you are starting off with a known quantity and a well rested baby. If you get a longer nap there then increase second A also. If you still get a short nap 1 then you might not increase the second A time however I think your A times were quite short and leading to short naps all day so really if you dont' increase the second A you'd likely be looking at another UT nap.

Doing it throughout the day - well you don't know yet if he will short nap or long nap and for how many naps so it's impossible to predict if it will result in a late BT.  BT's do change however when routines change.  You're currently doing 4 naps and i am suggesting that over the next couple of weeks you would be looking at a 2 nap routine.  If you had 2 long naps and a CN (which is normal for a 5 month old) you might have to move BT a bit later but once the CN is dropped then BT would need to be earlier again.  I think we have all moved BT during routine changes.

Also, could I just try W2S for the middle nap rather than the early one?
Yes you could but bare in mind that you are heading for 2 long naps and 1 CN and then to move to 2 long naps.  If you leave nap 1 short this will be the CN and then dropped from the routine shortly.


Offline hohoh1

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Wake to sleep not working
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 08:23:30 am »
My son takes short naps - he has done since 8 weeks old, rarely napping more than 32 mins on the dot, although he surprised us a couple of times recently with a 1 hour and 1.5 hour nap in his bed. He falls asleep independently. On another post I've established that he needs longer A times, which I am working on (going to start trying properly on Monday as we have a less disrupted timeframe of two weeks to work with). However I'm worried about lengthening his naps - if it doesn't work, his night sleep might go to crap.

I've tried W2S for two morning naps in a row, after 2.5 hours awake. Today he was less tired after that much time awake, and went to sleep independently, but stroking his cheek at the 20 minute mark woke him completely so now he's had even less sleep than usual. Yesterday I tried to calm him down when the same thing happened and he just screamed, so today I just got him up. It's stressing me out a lot, I just want him to get some deep sleep in the day. I'm willing to do anything to get it happening but I don't have much faith that I can just bulldoze him into a better shcedule. Our typical days:
6.15 wake
7 E
8.30 S - 30min
10 E
11.00 S - 30min
1 E
1.30 S
4 E
4.30 S
6.30 E and wind down for bed
7.15 asleep
Night wakings tend to be 11 and 3, I am trying to wean him off 11 feed slowly and get him down to one night feed.

For Monday onwards I'm going to try:
6.15 -7 try to get to sleep a little more
7 E
9 S - try to extend to ~1 hour
10.15 E
12 E again because he won't be eating at 1
12.15 S or later if I got him down til 10 - try to keep him alseep til he usually wakes up from 3rd nap ie. 2pm
3.30 E
4.30 S (cat nap)
6.30 E and wind down for bed
7.15 asleep

Edit: then I will try to push the 10am  feed back 15 mins every few days til it's at 11 at which point will attempt to get him eating 4-hourly. I'm not sure how this will go though - he has only just started eating 3-hourly, he is a little and often kind of baby and I'm not convinced I store enough milk for him to go longer during the day.
 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 08:25:24 am by hohoh1 »

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Hi there - I've seen your thread about W2S not working so have stopped by here to give you some additional support. We do ask that posters try to keep to one thread where possible so that all the relevant information is in one place and so that the community know the background to each question.

First, W2S is a method which takes time. It is not going to magically work the first day or 2 although some people do have results on day 1 when increasing to a suitable A time and using W2S together, this is not the case for everyone and is likely not going to be the case until your LO is on a suitable A time.  Before then it is a method where you begin to teach your LO that naps are supposed to last longer.  Sometimes a LO who has been allowed ot habitually wake after 30 mins for a long period of time will not sleep longer just because the A time is increased because they have not yet learned to transition to a new sleep cycle so this is why the 2 things work well together: tweaking routine and using W2S.  If/when W2S does not work and LO fully wakes you can stay in the room to continue sleep training for up to 45 mins (or until the end time of the nap but as this would be 1hr+ for your LO this would be considered rather too long) whereby you use shush/pat (or adapted) and continue to put baby into the cot telling him and teaching him it is nap time.  He will learn this with your support as you will be there throughout to help him.

W2S also often takes several cycles so you do 3 days of W2S then hold off for a day to observe, then 3 days back on W2S and hold off the next day, this can be continued until LO learns to transition to the next sleep cycle alone.

I am not totally sure why you chose to stroke his cheek for W2S. I had suggested you use your usual method of soothing which is like an adapted shush/pat, for you this is jiggling in the cot.  You use this because he already associates it with being comforted and helped to sleep. A stroke across his cheek might well have just disturbed him so he has fully woken.  If/when he fully wakes you stay in the room and put him back to sleep, or attempt to for a reasonable length of time (as mentioned above).

If he fully wakes there *is* likely to be some crying, he is used to you getting him up and going for a play and you are now changing this, of course he will be frustrated or be asking why?  So long as you are there with him reassuring him the crying is not linked to high stress.

If you are after a quicker route to lengthening naps and getting onto a new routine then all out sleep training for 3 - 7 days would likely have it done (by that I mean move directly to suitable A time and work on every nap for extending and teaching - I have known babies of this age move directly to a suitable 6 month routine with parents support where parents are unable to cope with the unpredictability of varying A times or a training plan which takes weeks rather than days).
If however you are unsure about changing his routine at all then I'd suggest you leave things as they are. It does sound like you are reluctant to alter his routine in any way and it is important for you to be ready to sleep train before you begin.

It is true that night sleep may well be effected whilst you are sleep training for day sleep but that's a short term issue where as learning to self settle and transition from one cycle to the next to get a fully restorative nap is a long term skill).
If you don't feel ready now we will still be here when you decide you are ready.


Offline hohoh1

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Thanks. Although I feel a little like I've been told off! I thought it might be appropriate in the naps board. Sorry for spamming the forum, I was trying to keep it relevant.

Good to know  W2S is not a magic bullet. I will try again in the way you suggest.

Not sure why you think I'm reluctant to change his routine. I'm more than ready. For the past 2 months I have been working on his night sleep, it took a lot of work using a gradual retreat method and night weaning slowly. He was waking 3-6 times and feeding to sleep each time. At bedtime I had to sit holding him for 2 hours. Now I put him down and I leave the room and he sleeps, waking only twice to eat before morning. So my reluctance is only the reluctance to undo that hard work. I only put naps second because I was exhausted and depressed after many weeks without more than 2 concsecutive hours of sleep. The nights were a high priority, and easier to get into better shape I think. 

Part of the reason I outline all this is to let you know I am not opposed to a bit of supported crying that eventually leads to happier mum and baby and more sleep. It's just my boy is a terrible napper, he has rarely shown the inclination, so I'm suffering from a lack of faith. He's occasionally taken long naps (once he did for a whole week!) but I have no idea why.

I'd like to do the quick route ie. move him straight on to an appropriate routine. I'm willing to work with a grouchy baby if he eventually catches on to day sleeping. I am not convinced he will do an 'ideal' BW routine of 2 x 2-hour-ish naps, but I'm willing to give it a go. Also not sure how to work out the feeding, I think I will feed him at 12 or so as you suggest.. Any advice you have would still be greatly appreciated. I've read both the BW books but the advice does seem to assume my son will learn to take 2 veeery long naps a day which I feel is just unlikely. Maybe I'm being a pessimist..

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I want to reply right now as I can see you are on-line although I don't ahve time for a full post just now.

You have not been told off honey - we just keep all the info together so that members can jump on with all the info available rather than getting bits here and there.  Primarily it is so that you get consistent support all in one place rather than double posting your EASY times etc on two different threads which will take up even more of your valuable time when you could be having a rest (well deserved!).
Neither did you spam the boards, we are far more harsh with spam ;)

OK, have a read back over what we've said so far as I think you are pretty much set to go on this is if you are ready.
I'll be back later after my DS's BT x


Offline hohoh1

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Ok thank you - I am grateful and waiting to see what you think. Mentally preparing for some hard work this week

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I'm back.

I don't think you are being a pessimist, it sounds far more like you are totally exhausted from having a short napper for so long and having worked so hard to sleep train the nights, and well done you!!
It can seem as though baby will never long nap when they have these short naps every day and Tracy did say in one of her books that some babies actually *are* short nappers, however most of what I've seen on the boards are LOs who are either not sleep trained, don't know to sleep for longer, are UT (under tired) or habitually wake and get up after one cycle...add to that this is an age well known for short napping (I've been there too!  Mine was sleeping independently from about 8 wks but I still experienced the 4 month regression of short napping, for us it was from 3.5 to 5.5 months with 40 min naps, we did 4 or 5 per day and I do remember it being exhausting).  the good news is that many babies improve their day sleep around 6 months and it's possible to happen earlier on a good A time. In hindsight I think much of my own problem with my DS and his short naps was going too slow on increasing the A times, if only I knew then what I know now :)

So, you said you'd like the quickest route and can put in the time/energy needed and prepared for a bit of a grouchy baby whilst you get there.  in that case below is a sample EASY for you to begin, I start him on 2hr 45 first A time as you have just said he seemed less tired on 2hr 30 which you did for 2 days.
Please note, I don't suggest trying to move morning WU time at this point, if you keep him in bed longer his A time is half 'sleep time' and low key stimulation rather than full awake time. IMO it's better he is active and has his usual level of stimulation whilst you get the routine in order, morning WU time might move anyway or you can get back to it at a later stage.
Please also note, I see your LO BF every 3hrs, if he can't go longer than 3hrs I suggest a top up feed prior to his nap time.  Around now or in the next few weeks he will likely be able to go 4hrs between feeds.

WU 6.15
E 6.15
A 2hr 45
E 8.30/45 BF (close to sleep time but not so close that you feed to sleep, you judge based on how many mins he is likely to feed for)
S 9 - 10.30 (use W2S to sooth him through the transition, use adapted shush/pat to resettle)
E 11.45 (working 3hr E from the 8.30/45 E)
A 2hr 45
S 1.15 - 2.45
E 2.45
A 2hr 30
S 5.15 - 5.30 (CN 15 min)
E 5.45
A 2hr - 2hr 30
E the BT feed will be at less than 3hrs
BT 7.30/8.00
I've left the last A time and BT as a bit open because he might like to get to bed at 7.15 because it is his routine and habit and you have set this in place.  However he might also be good with an 8pm BT for a little while until that CN is dropped when BT will move earlier to compensate.  An 8pm BT may well give you a 7am WU time which you were looking for anyway.  Not all babies can do 12hr nights, 11 is pretty good if it's consistent.

The fastest route and one which Tracy describes in her book is to keep LO in his room until the end of nap time (we usually say max 45 mins after he wakes) and then to keep him up until the next nap time. This means in reality his A time will be a lot longer than that written above because there is the additional A time that he was awake when he should have been sleeping. Now it is up to you if you keep him awake until the next planned nap time or if you calculate his A time from when he woke.  If you calculate from when he woke (many do this as it avoid OT) then you need to keep adapting your EASY plan as the day goes on adding 2hr 45 A on to when he week and adding 3hr E on to his feed times. E and S times might bump into one another and you will look out for this and avoid it by feeding a little earlier or trusting he can go a little longer if he is asleep.

We'll see how you go, he might need a 3hr A time and like I said I do know of LOs who have moved to 3hrs this age and have done well.  Or he may move to 3hrs in a few weeks when he is fully 6 months old.  It's not an exact science of course, every baby is different :)

On 3hrs A it might be something like
WU 7
E 7
A 3hr
S 10-11.30
E 11.30 (possible top up BF before nap or a solids breakfast at 8am can provide some additional calories to help LO get the longer stretch between milk feeds)
A 3hr
E 2.15 milk
S 2.30 - 4
E 5.15
A 2.5/3hrs
E BT milk
BT 6.30/7pm

You can well expect some OT in the first days of increasing A time and keeping him awake from one short nap to the next planned nap time, the OT actually  helps to make him good an tired so that he will eventually sleep longer naps too, it works in your favour to some extent.

I've given you lots to read and think about there.  I would be very surprised if your LO didn't move onto this routine of longer naps if you are consistent with your support and training.

Good Luck!
(and I will be here holding your hand - we are all volunteers here so I cannot always respond as quickly as I have today but I will generally check in once every 24 hrs for updates)


Offline hohoh1

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<3 thank you, this is so detailed and clear.

I am going to start following this plan from tomorrow. I'll pop in and let you know how it goes. I am going to have trouble sticking to some of the nap times we might eventually end up at, thanks to 3 weekly appointments - if he is napping well I'll probably skip the appointment rather than waking him, but once he's got it there are a couple of weekly things I need to get to for my own sanity which I hope won't muck up his routine (they will mean his naps are broken up & in the car twice a week rather than in bed).

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Appointments and life do tend to get in the way of a 'neat' routine but I also had non-movable appointments twice per week.  We actually had an adapted routine with 1 long nap and 2 CNs rather than 2 long naps.  It's messy but possible :)
Maybe we can look at that further down the line when you are getting more on top of things and see how it all pans out.


Offline hohoh1

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I'm not sure anyone will read this but I thought I'd update with how today went. Not brilliantly! in summary:
WU 6
E 6.10
A 2H45M
E 8.30 (was a bit close to sleep - he was nodding off)
S 8.40 - 1 HOUR
E 11.30
A 2 HR 30
S 12.15 - 12.35 - he woke at 20 mins, which he never does, and was in pieces, taking ages to resettle but he did, for another 40 mins S 13.05 - 13.50
E 14.20
A 2H45
E 16.10
S 16.35

So I'm heading for usual bedtime of 7.15-7.30 I think. I imagine the unusual 20 min waking during nap 2 was overiredness? I am pleased I got him back to sleep but I feel a long way from getting the 2 middle naps to consolidate. The hour in the morning was a nice surprise though! I'm not sure if it was the longer A time or a successful W2S. I jiggled and shushed him as i would to settle him in the night, just as he started stirring during the first nap, and he never fully roused. He might have been woken at the hour mark by my coffee machine, although he will sleep through this normally if he's in the middle of a nap.


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Well, it looks good to me for day 1!

Try not to read too much into the 20 min WU into his nap, it could have been and odd UT WU considering he had an hour nap earlier when he is only used to 30 mins.  Whilst many people say UT naps have happy wake ups I experienced a lot of UT wake ups with crying, my DS would be tired enough to want and need more sleep but not tired enough to keep himself asleep.  You did great to get him resettled for the additional 45 mins :)

If you feel able to, you can do a second W2S on nap 1 aiming to get a 1hr 30 nap.
Again if you feel able to a W2S on nap 2 may help to see him through the transition into a longer nap.

Remember, he is not used to transitioning alone or at all, he is used to getting up at 30 mins so getting 2 naps which were longer than this is a huge step!
Sleep training takes time, new routines take time to settle in too so you have both these things going on, it's going to take a minimum of a few days, likely a bit longer.  Also, having had 30 min naps for so long you or I don't *really* know what his best A time or best nap length and overall routine is going to look like in the end as all babies are different. We'll probably be able to see more clearly a bit further down the line.

Keep going, you are heading in the right direction!


Offline hohoh1

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Thanks creations. Wake to sleep has been more unsettling for buster today, I think he doesn't want to see me when he's being resettled, and too much shushing keeps him up. Update on day 3 - we had a good 2 hours in bed resettling twice but still not negotiating sleep cycles on his own. He was then under tired for the last nap and I had to give up on the cot and walk him in the Pram. Day looked like:
WU 6.30
E 7
A 2h30
S 9 - 30 mins, wide awake and grinning
E 10
A 2h30
E 11.45 started dozing off
S 12 - was so floppy after feed I could hardly get him into bed quick enough - this tiredness and sleeping without being in bed is very unusual! He was exhausted
Woke x 3 and resettled in exactly 6 mins each time. Woke after 40 min, 10 mins, 10 mins and 30 mins. 2pm by the end of this very broken nap
E 3
A 2h35
S 4.35
E 6.30
A 2h20
S 7.20